579 réponses à ce sujet

[Lukas Trevelyan]

Speaking of sex before marriage may I just point out how it completely annoys me that marriage is basically non-existent for any of the ME or DA series unless you marry Alistair/Anora and in essence such marriage is for political reasons and Liara which was a forgettable mention in ME2. It surprises me that in ME someone who's as religious as Ashley never even mentioned marriage. 

I'm the type of guy who firmly believes when two people fall in love and decide they want to spend the rest of their lives together, they should get married. It's a ceremony which basically "locks-in" the relationship, in peoples eyes, in their own eyes, they're married, they won't just be sharing the same romantic feeling or bed, they're sharing their entire lives.

Aside from how beautiful a marriage ceremony would be like in a game, it doesn't even need to go the whole way. A war is going on no real time for marriage, but at least a proposal, an initiative to prove the PC & LI are ready to commit to themselves.

I know that it may seem silly to some of you if not most of you, but I feel like voicing my opinion to mention how important marriage is in a relationship, to me at least.

EDIT: Forgot about Sebastian de le arse. Still my concern still stands.

[JadePrince]

I assumed the "vanished" thing is leading into a big plot point in DA:I? So I wouldn't call it part of a bad romance trope, which is what we're discussing here. 

 

I could be wrong, but I honestly think we're going to find out what "vanished" means.

[Little Princess Peach]

All the best romances end in heart ache or 'missing'

[Who Knows]

On the opposite spectrum, most if not all of the SWTOR romances end in marriage. I haven't actually tried denying any marriage proposals yet (partly because there are no saves I could go back to), so I don't know if that ends the romance or makes the game think you just want a casual relationship. But I know some people disliked the focus on marriage.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

I think they keep our endings with companions ambiguous so we can decide for ourselves if our characters got married after the end or not. Just because it doesn't show up in the game doesn't mean we can't headcanon that it didn't happen afterwards.

As much as I love head cannon, it's really silly because it almost always gets crushed the second the sequel comes out.

[Ailith Tycane]

On the opposite spectrum, most if not all of the SWTOR romances end in marriage. I haven't actually tried denying any marriage proposals yet (partly because there are no saves I could go back to), so I don't know if that ends the romance or makes the game think you just want a casual relationship. But I know some people disliked the focus on marriage.

 

Yeah, I found that to be extremely strange as well, but I know Bioware Austin is not the same as the Bioware in Edmonton, so. 

[In Exile]

Yeah, I found that to be extremely strange as well, but I know Bioware Austin is not the same as the Bioware in Edmonton, so. 

 

They also often ended in baby talk, which I think was more uncomfortable than the marriage aspect. 

[Lady Nuggins]

I guess where I am curious:

 

Do you think that the same people are okay with a manly LI if they are straight, but less so if they are lesbian or bisexual?

 

Forgive me if this has been thoroughly discussed already, I'm still catching up on this thread.

 

I think media in general shies away from portraying women as "too" masculine.  If she appears butch, or even simply engages in "masculine" activities like combat, there is a kneejerk need to protest that she is definitely a woman.  And usually that seems to come in the form of showing that she is unequivocally straight.  Movies like, say, G.I. Jane, raise the idea of her being a lesbian, only to shut that down hard and turn it into an injustice that anybody would see her as not straight.  When Brienne is introduced in GoT, almost the first thing you know about her (besides the fact that she is really big and a good fighter) is that she is in love with a man.

 

On one hand, I can see the desire to avoid stereotypes.  There is this idea that "lesbians must be masculine, gay men must be feminine".  But on the other hand, there is a real reluctance to ever show truly butch women in any form.  So butch queer women just... don't really exist.  And I think it goes back to that need to make lesbian women socially acceptable.  They have to be cute and femme and, well, appealing to straight men.  

[Ailith Tycane]

 

I'd say while the cultural stereotype of a lesbian is the plaid-wearing, short-haired, stocky, masculine woman, that's actually a trope RARELY seen in western media these days (unless someone is making fun of lesbians).

 

Frankly, I wouldn't even call Cassandra all that butch, but compared to the rest of the women Bioware has given us in the DA series, she's definitely the one that tows the line closest to androgyny.

 

EDIT: To stay on topic, this is just to emphasize that Bioware sticking to the 'femme' for f/f romance options is upholding the trope of lesbians being easiest for the mainstream to consume if they are firmly feminine, and not leaning over into 'androgynous' or 'masculine' categorizations. If there's worry that a 'butch' lesbian is too much of a stereotype, I think that can be avoided by her existing in a world/game where there are also 'butch' bisexual women and straight women too. 

 

Bolded for points I totaly agree with. To answer this plainly though, this is because western media still very much revolves around straight male sexuality. 

 

You're absolutely right though that every lesbian in main stream media that I can think of is very feminine and traditionally "attractive."

 

This is probably why I wanted Cassandra to be a f/f option so badly (also because she's a bad ass), because I think she's gorgeous but not entirely conventionally so, and Bioware has also had previous female character who I would have considered more masculine who ended up being 100% straight, so it would have been a nice change to have the female companion who looks and acts the most "butch" to actually BE gay or bisexual. Romancing a woman who less fit the ideal for straight men would have been nice for once. And yes I'm aware there are plenty of men who think Cassandra is good looking (and you all have excellent taste) but there are also a lot of other men on Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, even here and any other gaming site you can think of who insist she is ugly and too masculine.

[JadePrince]

Forgive me if this has been thoroughly discussed already, I'm still catching up on this thread.

 

I think media in general shies away from portraying women as "too" masculine.  If she appears butch, or even simply engages in "masculine" activities like combat, there is a kneejerk need to protest that she is definitely a woman.  And usually that seems to come in the form of showing that she is unequivocally straight.  Movies like, say, G.I. Jane, raise the idea of her being a lesbian, only to shut that down hard and turn it into an injustice that anybody would see her as not straight.  When Brienne is introduced in GoT, almost the first thing you know about her (besides the fact that she is really big and a good fighter) is that she is in love with a man.

 

On one hand, I can see the desire to avoid stereotypes.  There is this idea that "lesbians must be masculine, gay men must be feminine".  But on the other hand, there is a real reluctance to ever show truly butch women in any form.  So butch queer women just... don't really exist.  And I think it goes back to that need to make lesbian women socially acceptable.  They have to be cute and femme and, well, appealing to straight men.  

 

Thank you for chiming in, you put everything I was trying to say much more eloquently. This, exactly.

 

Here you go, Allan, explained much better than I managed.

 

EDIT: Can I just add that there's nothing more annoying to me than the phrase: "She's a warrior/fighter/soldier BUT she's a WOMAN TOO." As though these things are normally mutually exclusive, so we have to emphasize that in this one case she's somehow, magically, able to be both! (Of course, the word 'woman' in this context usually stands for 'heterosexual woman who wants hetero romance in her life just to reassure the straight male viewer that she's still "available" to him, despite being a badass warrior.' UGH. Sorry, rant over.)

[Ailith Tycane]

On one hand, I can see the desire to avoid stereotypes.  There is this idea that "lesbians must be masculine, gay men must be feminine".  But on the other hand, there is a real reluctance to ever show truly butch women in any form.  So butch queer women just... don't really exist.  And I think it goes back to that need to make lesbian women socially acceptable.  They have to be cute and femme and, well, appealing to straight men.  

 

Yes, a thousand times this. 

[In Exile]

Forgive me if this has been thoroughly discussed already, I'm still catching up on this thread.

 

I think media in general shies away from portraying women as "too" masculine.  If she appears butch, or even simply engages in "masculine" activities like combat, there is a kneejerk need to protest that she is definitely a woman.  And usually that seems to come in the form of showing that she is unequivocally straight.  Movies like, say, G.I. Jane, raise the idea of her being a lesbian, only to shut that down hard and turn it into an injustice that anybody would see her as not straight.  When Brienne is introduced in GoT, almost the first thing you know about her (besides the fact that she is really big and a good fighter) is that she is in love with a man.

 

On one hand, I can see the desire to avoid stereotypes.  There is this idea that "lesbians must be masculine, gay men must be feminine".  But on the other hand, there is a real reluctance to ever show truly butch women in any form.  So butch queer women just... don't really exist.  And I think it goes back to that need to make lesbian women socially acceptable.  They have to be cute and femme and, well, appealing to straight men.  

 

While I agree with you entirely, I do think that Brienne is an a different boat because of the trope that GRRM is attempting to deconstruct (beside the role that her appearance plays vis-a-vis Jaime's own character development), namely, that of the super strong but also super hot waif warrior heroine. 

[jlb524]

I think media in general shies away from portraying women as "too" masculine.  If she appears butch, or even simply engages in "masculine" activities like combat, there is a kneejerk need to protest that she is definitely a woman.  And usually that seems to come in the form of showing that she is unequivocally straight.  Movies like, say, G.I. Jane, raise the idea of her being a lesbian, only to shut that down hard and turn it into an injustice that anybody would see her as not straight.  When Brienne is introduced in GoT, almost the first thing you know about her (besides the fact that she is really big and a good fighter) is that she is in love with a man.

 

It's interesting that the way to ensure that a woman is with out a doubt seen as a 'woman' is to make sure she only wants a dude.

 

 

They also often ended in baby talk, which I think was more uncomfortable than the marriage aspect. 

 

A lot of them talked to you about your 'future kids' even if you weren't in a relationship with anyone.

 

I played a Female Trooper once and the last convo with Elara Dorne was about having children.

 

"No, I'm not having kids, Elara."

 

"But you'd make an excellent parent..."

 

"I DON'T WANT ANY FREAKIN KIDS ELARA OMG!1!1"*

 

*My character didn't say this but it's pretty close to what I was screaming at my monitor during that convo.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

SWTOR has awkward romances, additionally most of the "marriages" aren't actual marriages, just.. Awkward. I have nothing against the romances in SWTOR, I loved them but they weren't really the best in some situations.

Other than that I am not even talking about SWTOR, I'd specifically said "DA and ME". 

On another note, marriage was well perceived in SWTOR, no idea who gave you guys the impression that they weren't.

[In Exile]

On another note, marriage was well perceived in SWTOR, no idea who gave you guys the impression that they weren't.

I don't follow you here - the phrasing is ambiguous. What do you mean, marriage was well perceived? Perceived by who? 

[Ailith Tycane]

On another note, marriage was well perceived in SWTOR, no idea who gave you guys the impression that they weren't.

 

It was not well perceived by me, as well as the lack of their promised same sex romances. That was extremely disappointing. 

[JadePrince]

It's interesting that the way to ensure that a woman is with out a doubt seen as a 'woman' is to make sure she only wants a dude.

 

 

 

Yeeeep. It's been one of the ways, historically, that non-straight folks have been illegitimized. Gay men aren't "real men" and lesbian women just need a good man to help them figure things out. *rolls eyes HARD*

 

Luckily Bioware is not supporting those particular ideas, but it would be nice to see a butch woman open to a f/f romance in the Dragon Age games.

[Ailith Tycane]

Yeeeep. It's been one of the ways, historically, that non-straight folks have been illegitimized. Gay men aren't "real men" and lesbian women just need a good man to help them figure things out. *rolls eyes HARD*

 

Luckily Bioware is not supporting those particular ideas, but it would be nice to see a butch woman open to a f/f romance in the Dragon Age games.

 

Something else I'd like to point out, that as a bisexual woman, whenever I am with a woman there is always a fear or expectation from others that I will leave her for a man, or cheat on her with a man. With bisexual men who are with women, the expectation or fear is that he will leave her or cheat on her with another man...Or in other words, bisexual women are actually straight and bisexual men are actually gay. 

 

It's like the common idea is that everyone wants men ALL the time, everyone who is bisexual will leave their partners for men, the world revolved around the magical prowess of the penis, and this is just not the case. Just more proof that our society revolves almost entirely around male sexuality, lol. 

 

Anyway, back on topic, I am not completely against marriage being an option, my problem with the KOTOR scenario is that it was completely unavoidable in every single romance in every single class story. That's what made it so strange. 

[Lady Nuggins]

While I agree with you entirely, I do think that Brienne is an a different boat because of the trope that GRRM is attempting to deconstruct (beside the role that her appearance plays vis-a-vis Jaime's own character development), namely, that of the super strong but also super hot waif warrior heroine. 

 

Oh I agree, Brienne is groundbreaking and subversive for a number of reasons.  And her desire to be with a man and loved as a women is a really useful framework for GRRM to explore attitudes towards gender.  But there will always be overlap with other tropes, and she's still an example of a "manly but definitely straight" woman (which doesn't make her character inherently bad or harmful, but the fact that we have no queer equivalent of her is sad). 

 

 

Yeeeep. It's been one of the ways, historically, that non-straight folks have been illegitimized. Gay men aren't "real men" and lesbian women just need a good man to help them figure things out. *rolls eyes HARD*

 

Luckily Bioware is not supporting those particular ideas, but it would be nice to see a butch woman open to a f/f romance in the Dragon Age games.

 

Exactly.  And while, I think, there have been more positive portrayals of feminine gay men recently, the same can't really be said of the butch woman.  I guess because, no matter what, a butch woman is still perceived as repellant.  

 

I guess I've realized recently that I'm really attracted to butch women, but never considered that I was because the only ones I ever saw in the media were a joke (or were identified as straight and how dare I assume she's anything else).  

 

I agree, and I don't think this is any conscious decision that anybody at Bioware has made.  But they're subject to unconscious social biases just like the rest of us are, which is why I appreciate Allan taking the time to open up this discussion.  

[Magdalena11]

I speak as a mostly straight, had enough time to sync with her role in life, female gamer.  I don't care if my female PCs make a social statement.  I want them to be awesome.  As far as I, personally, am concerned, I really don't care if a video game validates my experience as a human being.  The world is full of injustices that will rob me of every enjoyment of life if I let it.  I'm really hoping to see some kick-ass character development, some personal stories (OK, not totally free of gender stereotypes - criticize me and i will gut you - as a retired nurse and fantastic cook I know how), and some challenging combat that will test my ability to use my team effectively and achieve my goal. I vow that I will not let convention ruin my enjoyment for once.  I'm done.  Thanks for letting me vent.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

I don't follow you here - the phrasing is ambiguous. What do you mean, marriage was well perceived? Perceived by who? 

 

By the nugs..

Who do you think?

[Lady Nuggins]

I speak as a mostly straight, had enough time to sync with her role in life, female gamer.  I don't care if my female PCs make a social statement.  I want them to be awesome.  As far as I, personally, am concerned, I really don't care if a video game validates my experience as a human being.  The world is full of injustices that will rob me of every enjoyment of life if I let it.  I'm really hoping to see some kick-ass character development, some personal stories (OK, not totally free of gender stereotypes - criticize me and i will gut you - as a retired nurse and fantastic cook I know how), and some challenging combat that will test my ability to use my team effectively and achieve my goal. I vow that I will not let convention ruin my enjoyment for once.  I'm done.  Thanks for letting me vent.

 

That's nice for you, but being critical of something doesn't mean we're all frothing angry, and wishing for representation doesn't mean we need a video game to validate us.  I just want them to be awesome, too, but sometimes running into a cringeworthy trope greatly takes away from enjoyment for many of us, especially when it's something we have direct experience in.  Besides, Allan is specifically asking for feedback here, so what is wrong with actually giving it?

 

I got so frustrated when I posted a comment on here when the response I received was they can't make Cassandra bi or lesbian because it would be offensive to bi/lesbian women. I'm really tired straight people telling me what I should be offended by. I'm old enough to make that decision all on my own. Now granted I am just one lesbian but how anyone could be offended by Cassandra being bi is beyond me.

 

I noticed a similar sentiment from gay men in the Dorian thread who were happy that he was gay and annoyed by all the people who said he shouldn't be because of stereotypes.  I think there is a risk of being so scared of filling the stereotype that you try to constantly go the other way.  Unfortunately, that means you're still allowing social biases to pigeonhole characters.  

[Lukas Trevelyan]

It was not well perceived by me, as well as the lack of their promised same sex romances. That was extremely disappointing. 

Right.

As for the lack of same sex romances, it's an mmorpg, they'll add it, eventually. But for now other aspects of the mmorpg matters more (more ops/ pvp modes/ class balancing/ housing/ server stability) and you can just settle for the present same sex flirts on Makeb, they're not the best but they're something.