579 réponses à ce sujet

[Ailith Tycane]

I got so frustrated when I posted a comment on here when the response I received was they can't make Cassandra bi or lesbian because it would be offensive to bi/lesbian women. I'm really tired straight people telling me what I should be offended by. I'm old enough to make that decision all on my own. Now granted I am just one lesbian but how anyone could be offended by Cassandra being bi is beyond me.

 

Yes this. It's like straight people have these negative stereotypes about gays and lesbians so ingrained into them that they don't even realize that a lot of gay people actually are that way, and it's NOT an insult to depict gays and lesbians as they really are. What's not appropriate is using gay and lesbian stereotypes as a horrible insult. It's like straight women who wont cut their hair short because they don't want people to think they're gay or men who don't want to do something percieved as feminine, like it would be so awful if someone mistook you for being gay for one moment. 

 

As a kid I was very tomboyish. I still am, except now I have actual post-pubescent adult features that make it obvious that I'm a woman, but when I was a kid I got confused as a boy all the time, and I remember the go to insult I would get from other kids was "he-she" and "******" and they would say these words without really understanding what they meant. Especially ******, They just knew the word was synonymous with a girl who had boyish traits and that it was used as a negative.

 

I think those kinds of stereotypes might actually be seen as LESS of a negative if they actually were featured in games and other media, there is no need to shy away from butch lesbians and femme gay men, they're real, and that's not a bad thing.

 

Edit: I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the forums censored me on that word, but just so no one gets confused, it starts with a Dy, ends in a ke and is used as a negative term for lesbians. 

[Ailith Tycane]

As for the lack of same sex romances, it's an mmorpg, they'll add it, eventually. But for now other aspects of the mmorpg matters more (more ops/ pvp modes/ class balancing/ housing/ server stability) and you can just settle for the present same sex flirts on Makeb, they're not the best but they're something.

 

No they wont, and no it's not enough to have a one off kiss with a random NPC.

 

The point was they said there would be S/S companion romances and there aren't going to be. It's not only a step backwards for Bioware but it's also a step backwards for the Star Wars franchise, and I was extremely dissapointed with Bioware Austin for that and how they handled it. 

[Lukas Trevelyan]

No they wont, and no it's not enough to have a one off kiss with a random NPC.

 

The point was they said there would be S/S companion romances and there aren't going to be. It's not only a step backwards for Bioware but it's also a step backwards for the Star Wars franchise, and I was extremely dissapointed with Bioware Austin for that and how they handled it. 

As I said they shouldn't have promised it to begin with because in the end it'll always be on the bottom of their priorities list because again its a mmo-rpg. But I disagree about you saying that compromising s/s romance for other content is a step backwards for Bioware, other mmos don't even have romance options while Bioware has a little of that in addition to a very interesting and coherent story-line for every class, side quests with decent plots, planet main side quests with actually interesting plots, a variety of "dungeons" (fps and ops) that rely on team work and proper tactics even in early levels, somewhat balanced pvp, lots of exploration (although not really rewarding) in addition to space ship battles PVE AND PVP, not to mention fully adaptive gear which makes it a lot easier for you to dress from whichever you choose from various armor sets without needing to worry about restrictions or stat hindering. Add to that your own space ship and soon your own house. So yeah, SWTOR as it's getting updated is only stepping Bioware and the Star Wars franchise forward. While s/s romance would be a good thing, but effectively there are other important things that need to be developed, sorry.

EDIT: I would just like to add that I'm not attacking the concept of adding s/s romances, I for one am pretty indifferent, I'm just saying that objectively speaking while developing a previously flopping mmo, there are more important things.

[jlb524]

I got so frustrated when I posted a comment on here when the response I received was they can't make Cassandra bi or lesbian because it would be offensive to bi/lesbian women. I'm really tired straight people telling me what I should be offended by. I'm old enough to make that decision all on my own. Now granted I am just one lesbian but how anyone could be offended by Cassandra being bi is beyond me.

 

There could be some projection going on (i.e., they would have been offended if Cassandra was anything but straight and try to project that onto bisexual/lesbian women).

 

I imagine people who say something like that don't actually care much for the feelings/desires of bisexual/lesbian women or what offends them.

[mikeymoonshine]

Yes this. It's like straight people have these negative stereotypes about gays and lesbians so ingrained into them that they don't even realize that a lot of gay people actually are that way, and it's NOT an insult to depict gays and lesbians as they really are. What's not appropriate is using gay and lesbian stereotypes as a horrible insult. It's like straight women who wont cut their hair short because they don't want people to think they're gay or men who don't want to do something percieved as feminine, like it would be so awful if someone mistook you for being gay for one moment. 

 

*snip

 

I completely agree. There are soo many stereotype about lgbt people that it is pretty unusual for someone to not at least conform to one of them and then you get the "oh it's because your gay" thing from people. 

 

Some lesbian women behave in a more masculine way and so do some straight women. The fact that there is a stereotype about that doesn't mean that making a lesbian character a bit butch is wrong. As long as it's not like a parody and as long as there is more to the character than that it's perfectly fine.

 

Allot of people have said Dorian is stereotypical for caring about his looks, fashion and being a bit gossipy but so what? Nobody ever sussed me out as gay but I went to college to study fashion design. That wasn't because I am gay, my whole family is incredibly artsy and always had been fashion was just the art form I ended up being best at and enjoying the most. 

 

As long as the characters are varied and aren't two dimensional I really don't care about stereotypes. 

[In Exile]

As I said they shouldn't have promised it to begin with because in the end it'll always be on the bottom of their priorities list because again its a mmo-rpg. But I disagree about you saying that compromising s/s romance for other content is a step backwards for Bioware, other mmos don't even have romance options while Bioware has a little of that in addition to a very interesting and coherent story-line for every class, side quests with decent plots, planet main side quests with actually interesting plots, a variety of "dungeons" (fps and ops) that rely on team work and proper tactics even in early levels, somewhat balanced pvp, lots of exploration (although not really rewarding) in addition to space ship battles PVE AND PVP, not to mention fully adaptive gear which makes it a lot easier for you to dress from whichever you choose from various armor sets without needing to worry about restrictions or stat hindering. Add to that your own space ship and soon your own house. So yeah, SWTOR as it's getting updated is only stepping Bioware and the Star Wars franchise forward. While s/s romance would be a good thing, but effectively there are other important things that need to be developed, sorry.

EDIT: I would just like to add that I'm not attacking the concept of adding s/s romances, I for one am pretty indifferent, I'm just saying that objectively speaking while developing a previously flopping mmo, there are more important things.

 

Cutting same-sex romances but not opposite sex romance is a pretty clear message to LGBT gamers about the sort of regard they're held in. 

[In Exile]

Oh I agree, Brienne is groundbreaking and subversive for a number of reasons.  And her desire to be with a man and loved as a women is a really useful framework for GRRM to explore attitudes towards gender.  But there will always be overlap with other tropes, and she's still an example of a "manly but definitely straight" woman (which doesn't make her character inherently bad or harmful, but the fact that we have no queer equivalent of her is sad). 

 

You're completely right in that regard. For all of the interest things GRRM is doing, his LBGT representation (and honestly his portrayal of women beside Daenerys and Caytlin though people here might disagree with me) is not particularly strong. 

 

One thing that occurs to me is the sort of gender conventions that media seems to be willing to explore. A woman with an unconventional appearance - such as Brienne - is now used to explore gender roles and the desire to balance more traditional gender goals with breaking out of your gendered role. But we don't see that with men - that is to say, we don't have more feminine/androgynous men exploring a desire to break out of very traditional masculine roles, or power dynamics, or goals. 

 

Bioware has explored more nonconventional portrayals of gender (at least for in comparison with other videogames, which are often the 1960s-1980s but in rendered form) with, for example, Aveline. But we've yet to even see a feminine man in the game (aside from I guess Fenris, and his voice is so bloody manly he makes me, scruff and all, look like I'm barely out of grade school). 

[Allan Schumacher]

Forgive me if this has been thoroughly discussed already, I'm still catching up on this thread.

 

I think media in general shies away from portraying women as "too" masculine.  If she appears butch, or even simply engages in "masculine" activities like combat, there is a kneejerk need to protest that she is definitely a woman.  And usually that seems to come in the form of showing that she is unequivocally straight.  Movies like, say, G.I. Jane, raise the idea of her being a lesbian, only to shut that down hard and turn it into an injustice that anybody would see her as not straight.  When Brienne is introduced in GoT, almost the first thing you know about her (besides the fact that she is really big and a good fighter) is that she is in love with a man.

 

On one hand, I can see the desire to avoid stereotypes.  There is this idea that "lesbians must be masculine, gay men must be feminine".  But on the other hand, there is a real reluctance to ever show truly butch women in any form.  So butch queer women just... don't really exist.  And I think it goes back to that need to make lesbian women socially acceptable.  They have to be cute and femme and, well, appealing to straight men.  

 

Fair enough.

 

My disconnect was framed around the perception I had that the argument was "men wouldn't want a butch lesbian."  Alone I can understand that, but Cassandra is straight.  So is there more tolerance for men dealing with a butch straight woman?

 

Which might be the case.  It just seemed odd to have the idea that we wouldn't make Cassandra bisexual or a lesbian because she's not pretty enough, but it's okay for her to be straight.

 

 

Does this mean, then, that people feel that the women we have available for f/f romances tend to have narrower/more male conventional range of "beauty" applied to them?

[Lady Nuggins]

Fair enough.

 

My disconnect was framed around the perception I had that the argument was "men wouldn't want a butch lesbian."  Alone I can understand that, but Cassandra is straight.  So is there more tolerance for men dealing with a butch straight woman?

 

Which might be the case.  It just seemed odd to have the idea that we wouldn't make Cassandra bisexual or a lesbian because she's not pretty enough, but it's okay for her to be straight.

 

 

Does this mean, then, that people feel that the women we have available for f/f romances tend to have narrower/more male conventional range of "beauty" applied to them?

 

I definitely see why that seems backwards, and I'm sure nobody went "we can't possibly make Cassandra lesbian, because men would hate her if she's a lesbian."  But I think there's often this unconscious desire to make sure that butch female characters aren't too butch.  Making sure she's straight is one way this seems to play out.  

 

Personally, I think all the women available for romances have a more conventional/male-focused range of beauty applied to them.  The fact that it also applies to the f/f romances is probably incidental.  Samantha Traynor's romance played out in a very male gaze-y kind of way, but I don't know if I'd say her character looks like it was designed to appeal specifically to men, any more than any of the other female LIs.  

[Allan Schumacher]

But I think there's often this unconscious desire to make sure that butch female characters aren't too butch.  Making sure she's straight is one way this seems to play out.

 

Okay thanks.  I think I understand it now.  By making Cassandra interested in men, we can be maybe a bit more free in how she looks because even if she doesn't look as much as men may like, they still have the knowledge of knowing that she's available for men to fall back on?

[jlb524]

Okay thanks.  I think I understand it now.  By making Cassandra interested in men, we can be maybe a bit more free in how she looks because even if she doesn't look as much as men may like, they still have the knowledge of knowing that she's available for men to fall back on?

 

That's how I see it.

 

It's okay for her to have more 'masculine' attributes than the other females b/c her straightness provides a strong anchor to femininity. 

 

I do think there are some things about Sera that are also stereotypically 'not straight' but I'm guessing most people perceive her as relatively feminine because she's an elf and a non-warrior.

[Who Knows]

I've never heard of a stereotype that "butch" women are bisexual. So the argument that Cassandra would be a stereotype if bisexual rings hollow to me.

 

Anyway, even if Cassandra or another "butch" woman was a lesbian - there are plenty of traditionally feminine bisexual love interests and 2 traditionally feminine lesbian love interests. It wouldn't be as if Bioware is saying that butch is only way F/F interested women have to be. There would be plenty of counterexamples.

[Kalamah]

Something else I'd like to point out, that as a bisexual woman, whenever I am with a woman there is always a fear or expectation from others that I will leave her for a man, or cheat on her with a man. With bisexual men who are with women, the expectation or fear is that he will leave her or cheat on her with another man...Or in other words, bisexual women are actually straight and bisexual men are actually gay. 

 

It's like the common idea is that everyone wants men ALL the time, everyone who is bisexual will leave their partners for men, the world revolved around the magical prowess of the penis, and this is just not the case. Just more proof that our society revolves almost entirely around male sexuality, lol.

Yeah, this is patriarchy at work here. An element of lesbophobia is based around the fact that by rejecting men, lesbians are threatening (to men), among other things. I won't get into detail to explain all the nuances, but this sort of thing comes up just how you said: that even non-heterosexuality must center around men somehow, because heteropatriarchy cannot fathom someone's sexuality not including men.

 

Relatedly, I'd just like to point out that f/f LI representation should center what lesbian and bisexual women want for LI's, not what would appeal to men. Just saying.

[Ailith Tycane]

Fair enough.

 

My disconnect was framed around the perception I had that the argument was "men wouldn't want a butch lesbian."  Alone I can understand that, but Cassandra is straight.  So is there more tolerance for men dealing with a butch straight woman?

 

Which might be the case.  It just seemed odd to have the idea that we wouldn't make Cassandra bisexual or a lesbian because she's not pretty enough, but it's okay for her to be straight.

 

Does this mean, then, that people feel that the women we have available for f/f romances tend to have narrower/more male conventional range of "beauty" applied to them?

 

For the most part, I would say yes, but this applies to most of your female companions characters, not just the F/F love interests. 

[Who Knows]

Relatedly, I'd just like to point out that f/f LI representation should center what lesbian and bisexual women want for LI's, not what would appeal to men. Just saying.

Absolutely.

[Fialka]

There is something to be said for the fact that a woman's femininity tends to be defined, or at least confirmed, by her straightness.  Aveline is a good example of this - she's a warrior (the first female companion who is - not counting the short-lived Mhairi - who, interestingly, we are told twice - by Anders and Oghren - is attractive to men) and practical, ambitious, and no-nonsense.  And yet, the whole Donnic thing comes up as this cute 'oh look, she does have a girly side' thing.  It is interesting that this type of woman (practical, ambitious, etc - qualities we tend to associate as 'masculine') - Morrigan, Miranda, etc. - does tend to be straight in Bioware games.

 

Edit:  Having thought about this some more, it's not really the straightness that bothers me (though I'm straight myself, so it's not something that struck me until it was pointed out here in this thread).  I think it's the idea that a woman has to be a 'closet romantic' a la Cass/Aveline, or considered attractive (by men, specifically) to be considered feminine.  But maybe that's more a gender representation thing than a romance trope, and it's sort of  a problem in all media, not just Bioware games.

[Who Knows]

Silk Fox is one exception I can think of.

Edit: In regards to being practical and ambitious.

[Ailith Tycane]

Relatedly, I'd just like to point out that f/f LI representation should center what lesbian and bisexual women want for LI's, not what would appeal to men. Just saying. 

 

That would be the dream, yes, haha

[Han Shot First]

That's not completely true - there was Dynaheir way back in the first Baldur's Gate game, and Raina Temple in SWTOR. (Raina is even a romance option.)

 

 

There was also Maya Brooks in the Citadel DLC for Mass Effect 3, who had Ella Thomas as her face model:

 

Spoiler

 

[GameBoyish]

Thought I should borrow this from the Romance thread.

 

On the majority human female elven companion, I've mentioned this in another thread, but here it is again.

 

Of DAO's 10 potential companions with DLC, 4 were female. 1 golem and 3 humans. Of them, the 2 youngest humans were romance-able. (Though I can't blame this last one). And Male Human Nobles had the extra option of marrying the human queen Anora. This, compared to 4 non-human male companions (a dog, dwarf, elf, and Qunari) and 2 human companions. Of them, one human and one elf were romanceable.

 

DAA brought us 2 female companions, neither surprisingly human. 1 dwarf, one elf. Neither romanceable (nor anyone in that game.) Contrast 1 dwarf, 1 Fade Spirit (Justice) in human corpse, and 2 humans.

 

Of DA2's 10 potential companions with DLC, 5 are female. 2 elves, 3 humans. Of them, one human and one elf is romance-able. Of 5 male companions, we have 1 dwarf, 1 elf, and 3 humans. Of them, 2 human and 1 elf romance-able. I guess DA2 is more even than most.

 

Of DAI's 9 potential companions that we know of, 3 are female. 1 elven and 2 human. Of them, we know of a romance-able human and one elf. This, compared to 4 potential male non-human (a dwarf, elf, Qunari, and... spirit?) and 2 human companions. However, when you factor in advisers, we also have two female humans: Josephine and Leliana. For prominent NPC's, we have Empress Celene and Morrigan. Guess what? Both human! I know it's important to the story and their characters to all be human, but... it seems to be that way with most female companions and prominent female characters in these games, doesn't it?

 

In fact, looking at the Inquisitor with companions and advisers around the table, I spot 1 non-human woman: Sera. In contrast, I see 4 non-human males in the room.

 

 

And again, of all the female companions across all the games, we've had two non-elven and non-human companions: Sigrun and Shale. None of whom were romance-able. This, contrasted with the much higher number of non-elven or human male companions. DAO and DA2's Dog, 2 Dwarf (Oghren and Varric), 2 Qunari (Sten and Iron Bull), 2 Fade Spirits (Justice and Cole). While Iron Bull will be the first non-elven/human male romance option, that's still one more than women.

 

Would it really ruin BioWare, or kill suspension of disbelief, to write more female characters that don't fall into the human/elf binary? And, while they're at it, consider how not just human and elven women are desirable as romance options, while the characters are being written?

 

That's how I see it.

 

[leadintea]

Something else I'd like to point out, that as a bisexual woman, whenever I am with a woman there is always a fear or expectation from others that I will leave her for a man, or cheat on her with a man. With bisexual men who are with women, the expectation or fear is that he will leave her or cheat on her with another man...Or in other words, bisexual women are actually straight and bisexual men are actually gay. 

 

It's like the common idea is that everyone wants men ALL the time, everyone who is bisexual will leave their partners for men, the world revolved around the magical prowess of the penis, and this is just not the case. Just more proof that our society revolves almost entirely around male sexuality, lol. 

 

Anyway, back on topic, I am not completely against marriage being an option, my problem with the KOTOR scenario is that it was completely unavoidable in every single romance in every single class story. That's what made it so strange. 

 

Ehh... I'm not sure about the whole "everyone wants men" thing is really the main issue when dating a bisexual. It's more like a bi will never be able to be completely satisfied sexually with only one sex, since they have cravings for the other (for lack of a better phrase, since bisexuals can definitely be satisfied with one partner, just not "satisfied" with one sex if you understand where I'm coming from), so most people are afraid that they'll dump them/cheat on them with the opposite sex. As a gay male, for example, my biggest fear with dating a bisexual is actually them leaving me or cheating on me with a woman. Most of the younger bi guys I know say they'll only fool around with gay guys while they're young then get married and live a "normal" life with a wife and kids, while the older ones I know tend to go behind their wives back to mess around with guys. Personally, I find that utterly disgusting and demeaning, and the sheer number of bi guys that think like this has made me very wary of even dating a bi guy. I know not all bis are like this, but like I said, bis will never be 100% satisfied with just one sex, while they have an attraction to both.

[Ailith Tycane]

Ehh... I'm not sure about the whole "everyone wants men" thing is really the main issue when dating a bisexual. It's more like a bi will never be able to be completely satisfied sexually with only one sex, since they have cravings for the other (for lack of a better phrase, since bisexuals can definitely be satisfied with one partner, just not "satisfied" with one sex if you understand where I'm coming from), so most people are afraid that they'll dump them/cheat on them with the opposite sex. As a gay male, for example, my biggest fear with dating a bisexual is actually them leaving me or cheating on me with a woman. Most of the younger bi guys I know say they'll only fool around with gay guys while they're young then get married and live a "normal" life with a wife and kids, while the older ones I know tend to go behind their wives back to mess around with guys. Personally, I find that utterly disgusting and demeaning, and the sheer number of bi guys that think like this has made me very wary of even dating a bi guy. I know not all bis are like this, but like I said, bis will never be 100% satisfied with just one sex, while they have an attraction to both.

 

Oh, so the main issue is that bisexual people are inherently unfaithful and incapable of monogamy?

 

As a bisexual, no you're 100% wrong, and not only are you wrong but this mentality is toxic and unfortunately runs rampant within the gay community.

 

Bisexual people are entirely capable of satisfied monogamy, and believing otherwise is, quite frankly, pure bulls**t that should really not be tolerated. 

[Mes]

Oh, so the main issue is that bisexual people are inherently unfaithful and incapable of monogamy?

 

As a bisexual, no you're 100% wrong, and not only are you wrong but this mentality is toxic and unfortunately runs rampant within the gay community.

 

Bisexual people are entirely capable of satisfied monogamy, and believing otherwise is, quite frankly, pure bulls**t that should really not be tolerated. 

 

I completely agree with you. I read that post and was like  .......

 

However I think it can be a bit hard to re-evaluate one's opinions on something if personal experiences have gone in a very particular way. Like a guy who declares he hates all women because he once had a girlfriend who was unfaithful to him. It's unfortunate but... What can one do? I don't know if getting kinda yelled at on a forum would really make this person open his eyes.

 

Edit: I guess the question is - how do we re-educate?