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Unfortunate Romance tropes/archetypes


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#401
Ailith Tycane

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I completely agree with you. I read that post and was like  :unsure: .......

 

However I think it can be a bit hard to re-evaluate one's opinions on something if personal experiences have gone in a very particular way. Like a guy who declares he hates all women because he once had a girlfriend who was unfaithful to him. It's unfortunate but... What can one do? I don't know if getting kinda yelled at on a forum would really make this person open his eyes.

 

Edit: I guess the question is - how do we re-educate?

 

Someone who uses poor anecdotal evidence to color their perceptions of entire groups of people is probably best to be ignored, which is why I have no intentions of responding to him further. 

 

It is not my responsibility to re-educate people about bisexuality anymore that it's the responsibility of black people to re-educate white people about how racism exists and is terrible. 

 

But this is extremely off topic and I'm going to stop talking about it now. The whole "bisexuals are unfaithful" thing just pisses me off...


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#402
Mes

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Fair enough. :)

 

I've been part of some really cool discussions "re-educating" some men that women play video games too. I remember one guy in particular in the end revealing that girls used to brutally make fun of him in school for playing games, therefore his experiences taught him that women can't possibly be interested in that kind of stuff. 

 

It was a conversation that pissed me off at first but then went kind of interesting. Someone's personal experiences can have powerful impacts on their psyche.

 

Apologies for the off-topic post!


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#403
Ailith Tycane

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The player character lines objectifying a romanceable elven companion in a way they wouldn't to a human.

 

Warden to Zevran, Hawke to Fenris: "There's always a use for a handsome elf."

 

If you don't see the problem with that line, I can't help you.

 

To be honest, I partly understand the desire people have for more varied romance as far as races, but at the same time some of the posts I'm seeing about it are verging on the kinds of racial fetishization I see in the real world. For instance people who fetishize Asian women. It's a form of objectification and it's really not flattering to be on the receiving end of it. But then again, DA dwarves, elves and qunari are not real like Asian women are, so the real world effects of fetishization do not apply to them, I just think it's worth noting...



#404
HackettOut

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On the majority human female elven companion, I've mentioned this in another thread, but here it is again.

 

Of DAO's 10 potential companions with DLC, 4 were female. 1 golem and 3 humans. Of them, the 2 youngest humans were romance-able. (Though I can't blame this last one). And Male Human Nobles had the extra option of marrying the human queen Anora. This, compared to 4 non-human male companions (a dog, dwarf, elf, and Qunari) and 2 human companions. Of them, one human and one elf were romanceable.

 

DAA brought us 2 female companions, neither surprisingly human. 1 dwarf, one elf. Neither romanceable (nor anyone in that game.) Contrast 1 dwarf, 1 Fade Spirit (Justice) in human corpse, and 2 humans.

 

Of DA2's 10 potential companions with DLC, 5 are female. 2 elves, 3 humans. Of them, one human and one elf is romance-able. Of 5 male companions, we have 1 dwarf, 1 elf, and 3 humans. Of them, 2 human and 1 elf romance-able. I guess DA2 is more even than most.

 

Of DAI's 9 potential companions that we know of, 3 are female. 1 elven and 2 human. Of them, we know of a romance-able human and one elf. This, compared to 4 potential male non-human (a dwarf, elf, Qunari, and... spirit?) and 2 human companions. However, when you factor in advisers, we also have two female humans: Josephine and Leliana. For prominent NPC's, we have Empress Celene and Morrigan. Guess what? Both human! I know it's important to the story and their characters to all be human, but... it seems to be that way with most female companions and prominent female characters in these games, doesn't it?

 

In fact, looking at the Inquisitor with companions and advisers around the table, I spot 1 non-human woman: Sera. In contrast, I see 4 non-human males in the room.

 

700px-Inquisition_members.png

 

And again, of all the female companions across all the games, we've had two non-elven and non-human companions: Sigrun and Shale. None of whom were romance-able. This, contrasted with the much higher number of non-elven or human male companions. DAO and DA2's Dog, 2 Dwarf (Oghren and Varric), 2 Qunari (Sten and Iron Bull), 2 Fade Spirits (Justice and Cole). While Iron Bull will be the first non-elven/human male romance option, that's still one more than women.

 

Would it really ruin BioWare, or kill suspension of disbelief, to write more female characters that don't fall into the human/elf binary? And, while they're at it, consider how not just human and elven women are desirable as romance options, while the characters are being written?

 

That's how I see it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great post and when its broken down its REALLY noticable.

 

Why cant bioware write in more female non humans? Weve had a total of ONE non DLC female companion who wasnt human/elf and she wasnt even romancable while there have been 7 non human/elf male companions.

 

its not like Bioware writers CANT write non human females (sigrun was fantastic and very popular).

 

 

I mean I just cant buy that its a coincidence, does marketing feel that players wont react well to female characters that arent human or basically human (pointy ears but otherwise pretty much human)?

 

I could buy it being a coincidence in 1 game but its been this way for 3 games and the only 2 female nonhuman companions we had were a DLC and a very buggy expansion, none of the 3 main games have them.


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#405
Lady Nuggins

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Ehh... I'm not sure about the whole "everyone wants men" thing is really the main issue when dating a bisexual. It's more like a bi will never be able to be completely satisfied sexually with only one sex, since they have cravings for the other (for lack of a better phrase, since bisexuals can definitely be satisfied with one partner, just not "satisfied" with one sex if you understand where I'm coming from), so most people are afraid that they'll dump them/cheat on them with the opposite sex. As a gay male, for example, my biggest fear with dating a bisexual is actually them leaving me or cheating on me with a woman. Most of the younger bi guys I know say they'll only fool around with gay guys while they're young then get married and live a "normal" life with a wife and kids, while the older ones I know tend to go behind their wives back to mess around with guys. Personally, I find that utterly disgusting and demeaning, and the sheer number of bi guys that think like this has made me very wary of even dating a bi guy. I know not all bis are like this, but like I said, bis will never be 100% satisfied with just one sex, while they have an attraction to both.

 

I'm sorry, but that's just not true.  I'm bisexual, and I've had fewer relationships than most of my straight or lesbian friends, because my relationships are all-or-nothing.  I fall in love with the person, not the sexual experience.  I've never left anybody for somebody else, or cheated on them, and I never will, because that's a crappy thing to do and it's not exclusive to any one sexual orientation.

 

If you have an attraction to say, redheads, but you fall in love with a brunette, will you feel forever unsatisfied?  Will you secretly hold out for a redhead?  Or will you love the whole person?  

 

Your attitude is why bisexuals feel so alienated from the gay community.  

 

If your bisexual friends are as terrible as you say, maybe you need to get new friends.


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#406
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To be honest, I partly understand the desire people have for more varied romance as far as races, but at the same time some of the posts I'm seeing about it are verging on the kinds of racial fetishization I see in the real world. For instance people who fetishize Asian women. It's a form of objectification and it's really not flattering to be on the receiving end of it. But then again, DA dwarves, elves and qunari are not real like Asian women are, so the real world effects of fetishization do not apply to them, I just think it's worth noting...

 

It's not the option to have non-human romances that concerns me (hell, I love them), but how flirting options seem to have been much more objectifying and dehumanizing toward male elven romances so far, while the same flirting tactics have not been tossed toward human romances. 

 

In real life, using objectifying and fetishizing come-ons toward a person who is part of a minority (like Asian women) will not yield a good response. Some people do, but most people don't like being treated like toys waiting to be played with. Particularly not those from a minority who are often objectified anyway.

 

If you're a woman and you recently met this cute guy on the street, and he said something like, "There's always a use or two for a pretty woman," would you respond favorably to it? Most likely not!

 

If you're an African American and recently started seeing or flirting with some really charming white person, and they said, "There's always a use or two for some handsome ******" How quickly would you punch the person who said it?

 

In the game, elves are a discriminated minority who get degraded and objectified very regularly, particularly by human characters. So you get a city elven companion who turns out to be romance-able (particularly Zevran and Fenris), and the relationship is shown to be more overtly sexual than human romances. The PC, who was written to be human in mind, gets much more aggressive flirting options, and options to say things like "There's a use for a handsome elf." Heck, if memory serves: with Hawke, in order to romance Fenris at all, you HAVE to give sexually aggressive lines and comment on "the use for a handsome elf" at least once to get the romance going.

 

And he and Zevran respond favorably to it! (Double points that they both have sexual abuse in their past.)

 

What person from a privileged majority says something so objectifying and fetishizing toward a person from a degradated minority, who likely has been treated with less dignity in the past, and thinks that's okay? Nothing says "I respect your mind, personality, and autonomy" quite like implying they're objects or playthings waiting to be used. And what person from a minority who often gets degradation hears a degrading comment like that from someone they recently met and thought, "Oh yeah, baby. Tell me more!"

 

Oh, whatever. I know most people here are going to say, "Whatever, elves aren't real, it doesn't have any real-world applicability, so who cares if the PC says something racially insensitive and the character responds favorably to being objectified and fetishized?" I'm about done.


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#407
Ryzaki

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If your bisexual friends are as terrible as you say, maybe you need to get new friends.

 

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

...As for the "always a use for a handsome elf." Uh...no you don't have to take that flirt to do Fenris romance. A sexual come on? Yeah but Fenris has no issue with blunt sexual come ons. (Hell he does them himself! SHOCK AND HORROR) That flirt just leads to an awkward chuckle. Hell I don't even think that's the flirt that can activate his romance. That's the flirt you get during his recruitment conversation.

 

And yeah elves aren't real people and elf fetishism is very much part of the setting (fem Elf gets a pretty comment from Loghain, the "especially cause you're an elf." from Alistair, Leliana's remarks about their grace and such, Zevran) so go ahead and scream.

 

Now an elven LI that did get offended by it? No problem. Pretending it's not part of the setting...nope.


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#408
Allan Schumacher

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For the most part, I would say yes, but this applies to most of your female companions characters, not just the F/F love interests. 

 

Reasonable.  I think only Shale is the most surefire counterpoint.  Maybe Merrill, but that's also possibly just my own biases on what I consider attractive rather than an honest depiction of measuring her against conventional beauty standards.



#409
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Great post and when its broken down its REALLY noticable.

 

Why cant bioware write in more female non humans? Weve had a total of ONE non DLC female companion who wasnt human/elf and she wasnt even romancable while there have been 7 non human/elf male companions.

 

its not like Bioware writers CANT write non human females (sigrun was fantastic and very popular).

 

 

I mean I just cant buy that its a coincidence, does marketing feel that players wont react well to female characters that arent human or basically human (pointy ears but otherwise pretty much human)?

 

I could buy it being a coincidence in 1 game but its been this way for 3 games and the only 2 female nonhuman companions we had were a DLC and a very buggy expansion, none of the 3 main games have them.

 

Thanks, I'm glad someone appreciates how hard I worked to put this information together.

 

Yeah. I feel it kind of comes back to that unfortunate objectification issue. If a character is male, he does not have to fit a fixed standard of conventional beauty. He can be short and stout, huge, horned and grey-skinned, or a walking corpse with the skin of dead fish. However, if a character is a WOMAN, she must fit a conventional beauty standard, or at least fit the standardized "normal" appearance. After all, women are in part decorative beings, and must be pleasing to the straight male gaze. Otherwise? Pft! What are women for? A huge Amazon of a Qunari woman? A short and stout dwarven woman? Who wants that as a companion?!

 

I've heard Allan object to people requesting non-human/elven female romances on the grounds that companions are created first and they decide who is romance material afterwards. (Or words to that effect.) They object to creating a female dwarven or Qunari companion just to make them romanceable. While that is true, the problem is almost every single female companion (and primary character like advisers) has just happens to be a conventionally attractive human woman, with the occasional conventionally attractive elven woman thrown in. Human women: incredibly buxom. Elven women: slim, slight, and model thin. Female companions who don't fit that mold? Ugh.......... Well, we had a golem. And Sigrun.

 

I wonder... what's going on that the majority of female companions and primary female characters close to the PC (like Anora or the advisers) all happen to fit a very safe and standard mold that the majority of straight male players are guaranteed to find attractive? And who all come from a cultural background that is not too exotic or alien for the human player? Like, for example, Qunari? On top of looking like ox-women, they come from a very mysterious culture that is hard for most players to grasp.

 

Meh.


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#410
Allan Schumacher

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^ Thank you, I'm glad someone appreciates how hard I worked to summarize that information. T_T

 

EDIT: And everyone still ignores it. *sigh* There's an HOUR of typing this morning I'm never going to get back.

 

As note, I try to read every post in this thread, since I created the thread to solicit feedback.  That doesn't mean that I'm necessarily going to respond to every post, however.

 

(stating this for everyone's benefit since you're not the first person in this thread to make an explicit comment about lack of acknowledgement in this particular thread - doing so is actually a disincentive for me to respond since I do not want to reward posts like this and have everyone start doing it when I don't respond).

 

 

As for your concerns about romance distribution among races I have two questions:

 

How much of the issue is romance specific, or more general to companions?  In general, our companions tend to be tilted towards human in the first place, which immediately removes other races from the romance equation by default.

 

You mentioned "comfort zone" in the the other thread.  What do you mean by that?

 

 

 

As it stands now I see two points from your posts:

  • There's a lack of in universe racial diversity among romances (/companions) in the game
  • Flirtatious lines towards the non-human LI utilize problematic phrases. (more examples?)


#411
SirGladiator

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One thing that DA seems to finally be getting right, is that, for those who read the books (particularly the first book), we know that the female elves are supposed to be the most attractive of all the races, to humans.  This was definitely not the case in the first two games, to put it mildly :) .  It seems they're finally getting it right in DAI, and two thumbs up for that.  On a more critical note (since constructive criticism is the point of this thread) it seems that DAI has fallen back into the old ways of every sex-gated Bioware game (which would be every BW game except DA2) , which is making your first female teammate romanceable but only by male characters.  It's rather unreal that they're not just going back to sex gating, but to this very VERY tired old trope.  It's got to be one of the most annoying tropes going today, and I'm honestly surprised it's still going after all these years, it's so blatantly and extremely unfair.  


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#412
Ceoldoren

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It's not the option to have non-human romances that concerns me (hell, I love them), but how flirting options seem to have been much more objectifying and dehumanizing toward male elven romances so far, while the same flirting tactics have not been tossed toward human romances. 

 

In real life, using objectifying and fetishizing come-ons toward a person who is part of a minority (like Asian women) will not yield a good response. Some people do, but most people don't like being treated like toys waiting to be played with. Particularly not those from a minority who are often objectified anyway.

 

If you're a woman and you recently met this cute guy on the street, and he said something like, "There's always a use or two for a pretty woman," would you respond favorably to it? Most likely not!

 

If you're an African American and recently started seeing or flirting with some really charming white person, and they said, "There's always a use or two for some handsome ******" How quickly would you punch the person who said it?

 

In the game, elves are a discriminated minority who get degraded and objectified very regularly, particularly by human characters. So you get a city elven companion who turns out to be romance-able (particularly Zevran and Fenris), and the relationship is shown to be more overtly sexual than human romances. The PC, who was written to be human in mind, gets much more aggressive flirting options, and options to say things like "There's a use for a handsome elf." Heck, if memory serves: with Hawke, in order to romance Fenris at all, you HAVE to give sexually aggressive lines and comment on "the use for a handsome elf" at least once to get the romance going.

 

And he and Zevran respond favorably to it! (Double points that they both have sexual abuse in their past.)

 

What person from a privileged majority says something so objectifying and fetishizing toward a person from a degradated minority, who likely has been treated with less dignity in the past, and thinks that's okay? Nothing says "I respect your mind, personality, and autonomy" quite like implying they're objects or playthings waiting to be used. And what person from a minority who often gets degradation hears a degrading comment like that from someone they recently met and thought, "Oh yeah, baby. Tell me more!"

 

Oh, whatever. I know most people here are going to say, "Whatever, elves aren't real, it doesn't have any real-world applicability, so who cares if the PC says something racially insensitive and the character responds favorably to being objectified and fetishized?" I'm about done.

So theirs one or two flirts that have them mentioning the fact that the receiving party is of another race. So what ? It's not like every flirt is talking about how they are your elven sex slave. The relationship between Hawke and Fenris is built on mutual respect, caring, and admiration for one another. As for Zevran, he throws out some rather objectifying flirts himself, at one point calling you his sex goddess. You're looking far to into this, you seem to be assuming that Hawke/The Warden think less of Zevran/Fenris because they're elves. When nothing could be further from the truth.


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#413
Ceoldoren

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One thing that DA seems to finally be getting right, is that, for those who read the books (particularly the first book), we know that the female elves are supposed to be the most attractive of all the races, to humans.  This was definitely not the case in the first two games, to put it mildly :) .  It seems they're finally getting it right in DAI, and two thumbs up for that.  On a more critical note (since constructive criticism is the point of this thread) it seems that DAI has fallen back into the old ways of every sex-gated Bioware game (which would be every BW game except DA2) , which is making your first female teammate romanceable but only by male characters.  It's rather unreal that they're not just going back to sex gating, but to this very VERY tired old trope.  It's got to be one of the most annoying tropes going today, and I'm honestly surprised it's still going after all these years, it's so blatantly and extremely unfair.  

Why is sex gating a bad thing ? People have preferences, so it makes sense that not everyone is going to want to sleep with you because you're the PC.


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#414
Allan Schumacher

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Why is sex gating a bad thing ? People have preferences, so it makes sense that not everyone is going to want to sleep with you because you're the PC.

 

The issue isn't with the gating, it's that the first female companion is the straight female LI.


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#415
Ailith Tycane

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The issue isn't with the gating, it's that the first female companion is the straight female LI.

 

Exactly. 



#416
Ceoldoren

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The issue isn't with the gating, it's that the first female companion is the straight female LI.

Ohp, my mistake. That's definitely a trope in Bioware games, can I ask you to elaborate on why you think it's unfair ?



#417
Allan Schumacher

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Thanks, I'm glad someone appreciates how hard I worked to put this information together.

 

This isn't a competition for who put in the most amount of work.  I spent 3 hours (from 12 AM to 3 AM) on the very first day talking with people and collating information, several hours beyond that coming up with ideas to help keep the thread on track and removing off topic posts, entirely on my own time (I'm not getting paid for this....) because I thought I saw a recurring theme in the romance thread and I wanted to solicit additional feedback.

 

I'm sure several other people have put large amounts of thought into their posts as well, including the ideas that women LIs have a much narrower range of physical traits that get utilized than men do (it's listed as one of the points in the OP)

 

 

To be clear:

I've heard Allan object to people requesting non-human/elven female romances on the grounds that companions are created first and they decide who is romance material afterwards. (Or words to that effect.) They object to creating a female dwarven or Qunari companion just to make them romanceable.

We "object" to making any character simply for them to be romanced.  Including humans and elves.  Cassandra isn't made romanceable because some people wanted to romance her.  Iron Bull isn't made romanceable because some people wanted to romance a male Qunari.  Cullen isn't made romanceable because he has a large following of people that would like to romance him.  Sera isn't made romanceable because we figure some people would like to romance a lesbian elf.  Dorian isn't made romanceable because someone might want to romance a gay Tevinter mage.  Nor is Josephine made romanceable because we figure someone would want to romance an Antivan diplomat.

 

The I'm not really keen on the word "object" it's just not a factor at the start of the character creation process.  Are you asking for it to be?

 

 

However, your complaint seems to be more geared towards general companions (which is valid) as opposed to romance specific.  Though I acknowledge that the next step from making more Qunari/Dwarf women companions for you is to make them romanceable.  Do you think that the inclusion of more diversity among the women as companions will encourage the romances to come out of that, or do you think that we should specifically set out to create romanceable characters that fit these traits?


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#418
Allan Schumacher

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Ohp, my mistake. That's definitely a trope in Bioware games, can I ask you to elaborate on why you think it's unfair ?

 

You're asking SirGladiator, or me?



#419
Ceoldoren

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You're asking SirGladiator, or me?

SirGladiator, sorry I didn't make that clear enough.I seem to have lost my head tonight.  :P



#420
Allan Schumacher

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SirGladiator, sorry I didn't make that clear enough.I seem to have lost my head tonight.  :P

 

Fair enough.  He doesn't seem to be around right now.  Can you think of any reasons that someone might find that unfair?  Or at the very least, problematic?



#421
Ceoldoren

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Fair enough.  He doesn't seem to be around right now.  Can you think of any reasons that someone might find that unfair?  Or at the very least, problematic?

Not off the top of my head. I agree that the first female companion is almost always a straight romance option. But I can't see how it's problematic, other then being predictable and people being disappointed that the option is not available to them.



#422
Ryzaki

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Ohp, my mistake. That's definitely a trope in Bioware games, can I ask you to elaborate on why you think it's unfair ?

 

Well I'd feel it was unfair because the first companions you recruit tend to be the ones you learn about earlier and it usually doesn't help that the 2nd female doesn't come along til a while after. (You don't get Liara til after the Citadel is done for the first time at the earliest, You get Leliana and Morrigan quite close together and same with Isabela and Merrill, but with Dawn Star she's with you from the beginning of the game, Silk Fox doesn't join til a bit into the Imperial City. Bastila you have with you well before you can get Juhani). You have more time to learn about them and get attached before the 2nd female comes along and the 2nd female usually gets introduced a good few hours later. The first female usually get more plot relevancy as a side effect. (not the case with Liara and Silk Fox though I admit).


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#423
Allan Schumacher

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Not off the top of my head. I agree that the first female companion is almost always a straight romance option. But I can't see how it's problematic, other then being predictable and people being disappointed that the option is not available to them.

 

I think there are concerns because the first companions have a tendency to be important ones.  I think there's also a predisposition for earlier companions to remain in the party over companions that are received later in the game (this is certainly the case for me).  Or at the very least, there's a perception of this.

 

Even then, by virtue of being first the opportunities for simply having more screen time are much higher.  Done enough times over a multitude of games, it starts to become a trend that the straight character is always/typically the one that is seen the most and more involved in the story's narrative.


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#424
Ceoldoren

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Well I'd feel it was unfair because the first companions you recruit tend to be the ones you learn about earlier and it usually doesn't help that the 2nd female doesn't come along til a while after. (You don't get Liara til after the Citadel is done for the first time at the earliest, You get Leliana and Morrigan quite close together and same with Isabela and Merrill, but with Dawn Star she's with you from the beginning of the game, Silk Fox doesn't join til a bit into the Imperial City. Bastila you have with you well before you can get Juhani). You have more time to learn about them and get attached before the 2nd female comes along and the 2nd female usually gets introduced a good few hours later. The first female usually get more plot relevancy as a side effect. (not the case with Liara and Silk Fox though I admit).

I don't see how this can be solved though, other then making said companion irrelevant to the plot. Which doesn't really solve anything. I think you still get a considerable amount of time to build a relationship with Silk Fox, and I don't really consider Juhani a romance option since the dialogue is so buried. Liara I feel was very relevant to the plot. Of course you could simply change it up in the next game, maybe make the first female companion a female only option ?



#425
Ryzaki

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I don't see how this can be solved though, other then making said companion irrelevant to the plot. Which doesn't really solve anything. I think you still get a considerable amount of time to build a relationship with Silk Fox, and I don't really consider Juhani a romance option since the dialogue is so buried. Liara I feel was very relevant to the plot. 

 

For me simply having the first female you meet be bi. There's no need to make them irrelevant.

 

Honestly all the romances in JE felt really rushed to me. Probably because all the romance dialogue triggers in the Imperial City and the game's not very long to begin with. I love JE but it's a very quick romp. And yeah Liara and SF were more vital to the plot than their m/f only counterparts.