579 réponses à ce sujet

[Ailith Tycane]

I don't see how this can be solved though, other then making said companion irrelevant to the plot. Which doesn't really solve anything. I think you still get a considerable amount of time to build a relationship with Silk Fox, and I don't really consider Juhani a romance option since the dialogue is so buried. Liara I feel was very relevant to the plot. Of course you could simply change it up in the next game, maybe make the first female companion a female only option ?

 

They don't have to make them irrelevant to the plot, but they could make the first companions the same sex options.

 

 

I spent 3 hours (from 12 AM to 3 AM) on the very first day talking with people and collating information, several hours beyond that coming up with ideas to help keep the thread on track and removing off topic posts, entirely on my own time (I'm not getting paid for this....) because I thought I saw a recurring theme in the romance thread and I wanted to solicit additional feedback.

 

I appreciate that Allan, it's nice to feel like a dev is actually taking your feedback into account and starting a dialogue.  

[Momiji.mii]

This thread has been interesting to read. I certainly have seen quite a few klichés/patterns that have irked me mentioned, so I hope this feedback will be useful. Especially when something (like meeting the straight female LI first) is repeated in three games*, then it's probably an unintentional bias. And to counter those, looking objectively at the pattern can be quite revealing. I've had similar revelations concerning my own writing before.

 

* For DA, more if you count the ME-trilogy as well. 

[Estelindis]

This thread has been interesting to read. I certainly have seen quite a few klichés/patterns that have irked me mentioned, so I hope this feedback will be useful. Especially when something (like meeting the straight female LI first) is repeated in three games*, then it's probably an unintentional bias. And to counter those, looking objectively at the pattern can be quite revealing. I've had similar revelations concerning my own writing before.

 

* For DA, more if you count the ME-trilogy as well. 

 

In fairness, we generally meet the straight male LI even sooner (Carth, Kaidan,* and Alistair), and I admit that this is one privilege I've quite enjoyed.  No harm to share it around though!

 

*What with showing romantic interest only in FemShep in ME1, he seemed straight to plenty of people initially, including me.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Cullen is an advisor of the Inquisition recruited by Cassandra in Kirkwall, so I imagine you will "find" him first, as well.  

[Andraste_Reborn]

A thread started by a BioWare employee on his own initiative and his own time because he wants to hear about things we think are wrong with previous romances, no less. I'm pretty sure we're not wasting our time.

 

(Well, I kind of am, because the only things that have bugged me are either long gone - like women getting stuck with only one romance - or people had already mentioned them by the time I got to this thread. But it's an interesting read anyway.)

[Sarcastic Tasha]

The player character lines objectifying a romanceable elven companion in a way they wouldn't to a human.
 
Warden to Zevran, Hawke to Fenris: "There's always a use for a handsome elf."
 
If you don't see the problem with that line, I can't help you.

Yeah that line is pretty offensive but if the warden is a human noble it's pretty likely she wouldn't see that it's offensive. She would have grown up having elven servants so it's entirely possible that she wouldn't consider elves her equal. But yeah perhaps someone should call the warden out on that line.


There is actually a really nice conversation between Leliana and the city elf warden where Leliana is completely oblivious to the fact she's being offensive and the warden tells her off for it. Pointing out that even though Leliana isn't unkind to elves she doesn't see them just as people.

[Fialka]

Cullen is an advisor of the Inquisition recruited by Cassandra in Kirkwall, so I imagine you will "find" him first, as well.  

True.... I think we extend the trope to include straight males as well... 

 

DAO: Alistair and Morrigan

ME1: Ashley and Kaidan (I know he is bi in ME3, but it came across in ME1 that he was conceptualized as straight - if you never played ME3 you could easily assume he is intended to be).

ME2: Jacob and Miranda

DAI (if my predictions about the game's beginning/who will be an LI turn out be correct): Cassandra and Cullen (disclaimer: insert giant question mark here)

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Although, ME 1-2 do kind of slant things, since it's not like there was a male LI that wasn't straight.    

[Fialka]

Although, ME 1-2 do kind of slant things, since it's not like there was a male LI that wasn't straight.    

Yeah, maybe it's not the best example, even if the trope still holds true.  

 

And the representation of bisexual women in those games were... problematic, as well.

(Liara being part of the Asari - a race of beautiful bisexual women that to me, raised a whole host of 'pandering to male fantasies' red flags, and Kelly Chambers - who, while cute, had this "I love everyone! teehee!" attitude that made it difficult for me to take her seriously as a character.)

[jlb524]

Honestly all the romances in JE felt really rushed to me. Probably because all the romance dialogue triggers in the Imperial City and the game's not very long to begin with. I love JE but it's a very quick romp. And yeah Liara and SF were more vital to the plot than their m/f only counterparts.

 

I'm pretty sure Dawn Stars romance dialog can start right away though (the benefit of being recruited so early).  How is Silk Fox more vital to the plot than Dawn Star?  I would say it ends up being the opposite b/c of *BIGWTFBBQ SPOILERZ*.

[Uirebhiril]

Love interests either have no romantic/sexual experience, or their experiences are tragic. I know that part has been touched on, but my point here is that there's no mid-ground. It always seems to be either/or. They never split amicably from a former lover, or had a spouse or child or any sort of life before they end up with you. And if they did, it of course ended up in tragedy.

 

When there are characters who are fine with having a normal healthy sexual life, it goes too far to the extreme of LOOK AT HOW MUCH SEX I HAVE I AM SO OKAY WITH LOTS OF IT. That part ends up becomes the defining characteristic of the person, which is unfortunate since I know these characters have plenty of other things we should be able to define them by.

 

I hope that made sense. If not, I'll come back to it after I've had more coffee.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Yeah, maybe it's not the best example, even if the trope still holds true.  
 
And the representation of bisexual women in those games were... problematic, as well.
(Liara being part of the Asari - a race of beautiful bisexual women that to me, raised a whole host of 'pandering to male fantasies' red flags, and Kelly Chambers - who, while cute, had this "I love everyone! teehee!" attitude that made it difficult for me to take her seriously as a character.)

It's always seemed a bit strange to me that asari are all bisexual. I'd have thought if your species didn't have any males (because let's face it asari are female) naturally you wouldn't be attracted to males. But then I suppose it doesn't make much sense that they'd be attracted to salarians or turians either. Human females obviously look a lot like asari so that makes sense but even then they might find hair disgusting.

[Fialka]

Love interests either have no romantic/sexual experience, or their experiences are tragic. I know that part has been touched on, but my point here is that there's no mid-ground. It always seems to be either/or. They never split amicably from a former lover, or had a spouse or child or any sort of life before they end up with you. And if they did, it of course ended up in tragedy.

 

When there are characters who are fine with having a normal healthy sexual life, it goes too far to the extreme of LOOK AT HOW MUCH SEX I HAVE I AM SO OKAY WITH LOTS OF IT. That part ends up becomes the defining characteristic of the person, which is unfortunate since I know these characters have plenty of other things we should be able to define them by.

 

I hope that made sense. If not, I'll come back to it after I've had more coffee.

Or, alternatively, they are virgins/don't talk about their sexual past at all... and those are your choices.

 

DAO: Alistair (straight virgin) vs. Zevran (promiscuous (also bi... but that's a different trope already touched on) with a tragic past lover).  With the women, they mix it up a bit, but you still have Morrigan (with her casual attitude toward sex) or Leliana (the pious, at-least-seemingly innocent one who also has a tragic past lover (and is bi...)).

 

DA2: Isabela (promiscuous and openly bi - ex-husband assassinated by lover) vs. Merrill (never did her romance, but she comes across as naive and virginal)... and Anders (again with the tragic past lover - comfortable with talking about sex and comes across as promiscuous in Awakening) vs. Fenris (speculated to be a virgin outside of (tragic past!) sexual abuse.)

 

DAI: I don't know enough about the females to speculate... but once again, so far for the lady Inquisitor, we have Cullen (straight possible virgin - at least, comes across as awkward/shy about sex so far) vs. Iron Bull (promiscuous (as long as he can't break it!) and bisexual (see Zevran)).

[Lukas Trevelyan]

Or, alternatively, they are virgins/don't talk about their sexual past at all... and those are your choices.

 

DAO: Alistair (straight virgin) vs. Zevran (promiscuous (also bi... but that's a different trope already touched on) with a tragic past lover).  With the women, they mix it up a bit, but you still have Morrigan (with her casual attitude toward sex) or Leliana (the pious, at-least-seemingly innocent one who also has a tragic past lover (and is bi...)).

 

DA2: Isabela (promiscuous and openly bi - ex-husband assassinated by lover) vs. Merrill (never did her romance, but she comes across as naive and virginal)... and Anders (again with the tragic past lover - comfortable with talking about sex and comes across as promiscuous in Awakening) vs. Fenris (speculated to be a virgin outside of (tragic past!) sexual abuse.)

 

DAI: I don't know enough about the females to speculate... but once again, so far for the lady Inquisitor, we have Cullen (straight possible virgin - at least, comes across as awkward/shy about sex so far) vs. Iron Bull (promiscuous (as long as he can't break it!) and bisexual (see Zevran)).

You've put to words what I couldn't explain for a while!

[Ryzaki]

I'm pretty sure Dawn Stars romance dialog can start right away though (the benefit of being recruited so early).  How is Silk Fox more vital to the plot than Dawn Star?  I would say it ends up being the opposite b/c of *BIGWTFBBQ SPOILERZ*.

 

Really? I didn't notice the flirts til Imperial City. Same with Sky really.

 

Except that's completely optional and changes absolutely nothing about the game and she doesn't help move the main plot whatsoever. Wait her being captured let's you be in X place when Y happens but that's it. It was interesting trivia and expanded the lore (and explained her abilities) no more no less.

[Rane7685]

Not sure if its a trope or something but the "love" state seems to be the same for all types. I loved Isabela but her being in love with me in the same way every other LI was was kind of strange. It felt like her being in love with me cost her part of herself.. It was strange. She was a phenomenal character (the best Bioware character for me personally) and it was great to romance her and for the most part I loved it but it was a little strange at times when she became completely smitten with me. Love can manifest/be expressed in many ways but at times it seemed a little out of character

[Lady Nuggins]

The player character lines objectifying a romanceable elven companion in a way they wouldn't to a human.

 

Warden to Zevran, Hawke to Fenris: "There's always a use for a handsome elf."

 

If you don't see the problem with that line, I can't help you.

 

Do you think maybe people see this as less problematic because the recipient is male?  There is a lore-based power dynamic, like you say, but not a real world one.  If the elf were female, do you think people would be a lot more upset about this line?  Would it bother you less if the line were actually treated as a gross thing to say, instead of simply flirty?

 

(Actually I think it would be interesting if the PC were allowed to say problematic things like calling an elf "knife ears" and be called out for it, but that's for a different discussion.)

 

Zevran, I'm not so sure, would object to this line since it's not too different from his own flirting.  But with Fenris, it seems odd that he doesn't react negatively to this statement (although the nervous laugh could be seen as discomfort) given his history.  

[Wulfram]

Or, alternatively, they are virgins/don't talk about their sexual past at all... and those are your choices.

 

DAO: Alistair (straight virgin) vs. Zevran (promiscuous (also bi... but that's a different trope already touched on) with a tragic past lover).  With the women, they mix it up a bit, but you still have Morrigan (with her casual attitude toward sex) or Leliana (the pious, at-least-seemingly innocent one who also has a tragic past lover (and is bi...)).

 

DA2: Isabela (promiscuous and openly bi - ex-husband assassinated by lover) vs. Merrill (never did her romance, but she comes across as naive and virginal)... and Anders (again with the tragic past lover - comfortable with talking about sex and comes across as promiscuous in Awakening) vs. Fenris (speculated to be a virgin outside of (tragic past!) sexual abuse.)

 

DAI: I don't know enough about the females to speculate... but once again, so far for the lady Inquisitor, we have Cullen (straight possible virgin - at least, comes across as awkward/shy about sex so far) vs. Iron Bull (promiscuous (as long as he can't break it!) and bisexual (see Zevran)).

 

As far as Bioware games as a whole goes, I think the "Tragic past lover" trope is very much a male one, while the tendency to be shown as either virginal/chaste or promiscuous with little middle ground is more of a female LI thing.  I'd consider Alistair something of a welcome variation from that tendency.

[jlb524]

Really? I didn't notice the flirts til Imperial City. Same with Sky really.

 

I remember flirting with her from the beginning.  The ones in Chapter 1 don't technically affect the romance though.

[Ryzaki]

I remember flirting with her from the beginning.  The ones in Chapter 1 don't technically affect the romance though.

Ah to be fair I tend to do Sky's.

[AtlAggie]

Interesting thread, I've just now found it and read through a good bit of it, although it's a bit too large to digest all at once. Thanks to Allan for starting it, and for continuing to engage fans in good faith on such thorny topics.

 

Anyway, I want to return to a "trope" that Ailith Tycane mentioned way back on the first page (and others may have done so later...like I said, I haven't managed to read every post yet, so apologies if I'm being redundant, but this isn't on the "list" curated by Allan on the first post, so I assume it hasn't been discussed *that* much).

 

For at least the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games, Bioware has created a number of "warrior women" (for lack of a better term) who are not available to female PCs. I'm thinking of characters who are solider/warrior class characters, who exhibit a great deal of physical strength, etc. Basically badass warrior types. Ashley, Aveline (who obviously wasn't a romance option for any player), and now Cassandra.

 

I realize that this isn't a *huge* list (although you could argue for Jack's inclusion on the list, although she feels a bit different to me, because her prowess is more wizard-y than physical), but it still feels like a trend to me. Because I can't help feeling like Bioware is great at creating these characters that are basically lesbian catnip and then making them unavailable to female characters.   (said with affection and as a lesbian myself). It becomes even more noticeable when you consider that in ME3, Kaidan was opened up to male PCs, but Ashley was not opened up to female PCs.

 

Just once I want to be able to romance the Amazon-type warrior with my female PC.   I really hoped Cassandra would finally give me that opportunity, but obviously no dice. Which is fine, I guess. I mean, I'm not *that* broken up about it, I'll make a male Inquisitor eventually for purposes of experiencing her romance. But it's starting to feel like Bioware is overcompensating by making every Amazon/warrior type straight instead of gay or bisexual, in order to avoid playing into stereotypes of "strong" women being gay or bisexual.

 

Anyway, to any devs reading this, thanks for listening!  I'll keep playing Bioware games and holding out hope that eventually I'll get to play a woman who gets the warrior woman of her dreams. 

[berelinde]

Plot armor only comes in ladies' sizes.

 

I mean, look.

 

Morrigan: absolutely unkillable, returning character with a major part in DAI

Leliana: You *thought* you could kill her. You were wrong. She returns again and again and again, and is reputed to be a major part of DAI.

Alistair: You can execute him. If you do, he is guaranteed never to return.

Zevran: You can execute him before he even joins the party. Canonically dead. He has been confirmed not to be present in DAI.

Anders: You can execute him. Canonically dead. Presence in DAI (for those that spared him) is unconfirmed.

Fenris: You can kill him, but he is completely irrelevant to the plot of DA2, so it's unlikely to matter either way.

Isabela: Unkillable. You can surrender her to the Arishok, but she escapes.

Merrill: You can kill her.

 

In the DA games alone (excluding DLC), all four male LIs can be killed outright and are guaranteed never to return, but three out of four female LIs are immortal, and two are guaranteed to return in major roles.

[Kalamah]

Well, Morrigan can be stabbed in Witch Hunt, but her being a Witch of the Wilds does kind of mean she's unkillable in itself.  Speaking of, I sure hope they bring Yavana back in some form.

 

But when you put it into a list like that... on the one hand I'm glad women get plot protection, given how many people would kill them for not meeting arbitrarily high standards due to misogyny. But on the other hand, I'm also annoyed at the retcons for plot purposes, as a writer myself and as someone who believes that if a character cannot die for XYZ plot-necessary reasons, don't give the players a chance to even kill them, period. It saves a lot of player aggravation in the long run, and looks less sloppy in the big picture as well. That, and the "Haha, you thought you killed me? I'm BACK!" is a thing more for corny kid show villains.

 

Edit: Now that you mention it, though, I hadn't really noticed how irrelevant Fenris is to DA2's overall plot. Sure, he's nice to have around at certain points (the Arishok, assorted slavers), but his story is sort of tacked on and only tangentially relevant overall.

[Talagen]

Plot armor only comes in ladies' sizes.

 

I mean, look.

 

Morrigan: absolutely unkillable, returning character with a major part in DAI

Leliana: You *thought* you could kill her. You were wrong. She returns again and again and again, and is reputed to be a major part of DAI.

Alistair: You can execute him. If you do, he is guaranteed never to return.

Zevran: You can execute him before he even joins the party. Canonically dead. He has been confirmed not to be present in DAI.

Anders: You can execute him. Canonically dead. Presence in DAI (for those that spared him) is unconfirmed.

Fenris: You can kill him, but he is completely irrelevant to the plot of DA2, so it's unlikely to matter either way.

Isabela: Unkillable. You can surrender her to the Arishok, but she escapes.

Merrill: You can kill her.

 

In the DA games alone (excluding DLC), all four male LIs can be killed outright and are guaranteed never to return, but three out of four female LIs are immortal, and two are guaranteed to return in major roles.

 

THIS!!!  You forgot to mention Tallis!  I was wondering this very thing.  It's pretty blatant.  I'm getting really tired of all the Mary Sue's BioWare has.  Maybe wouldn't mind so much if we could see at least a few Marty Stu's from our male companions. 

[Imported_beer]

Here is my list. Note, these are general romance tropes, and I am not insinuating Bioware does this.

 

1. [male appendage] is a surgical tool that removes attitude, chutzpah, spine or any manner of independence in the female NPC where in she turns from a roaring tigress to a tail wagging puppy dog. All it takes is a few correct dialogue options, one smex scene and behold the girly, soft earthmother behind every vixen. 

2. A "bad" boy is an immoral, sleazy jerk. From my analysis, it seems more that bad boys in fiction are independent, masterful, hawt men who then transform from emotionally distant to devoted, steadfast lovers. Mr. Darcy? That guy in that bdsm novel? That sparkly vampire guy? Any of them hornballs? The sleazy womanizer is appealing to no one. The distant man waiting for a woman to warm him up is a trope, but is a popular one.

3. No woman  talks about her exes. Unless the ex was a very hawt chick. However, men can only talk about female exes.

4. Promiscuity is seen as equal to sexual skill. Not necessarily true. That is more about attitude than experience. You could have been a bad lover that had 500 women, or a good one who learned from 5.

 

 

MY BIGGEST ONE.

 

1. You only love people who agree with you. Not on the basis of who they are, or even on the basis of their character. This is trickiest in a game because how does one depict a stormy start, or falling in love with someone you respect rather than agree with. Or even opposites attract. I don't know, and assume that is why it is seldom depicted in games.