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[Allan Schumacher]

This is me asking the fanbase for feedback.  Note that discussion about the tropes themselves is okay, but I'd really prefer to keep this on topic and will likely remove off topic stuff.  Especially if it's going to turn into a relatively heated disagreement.

 

July 15th, Thread reopened

 

Some things to please keep in mind to help me out for this.

• If you want to reply to a post I make, please check back on the thread if I am responding to someone.  I'm usually trying to respond to a specific trope to better understand it and if the conversation gets sidetracked, I am not sure if it's a new trope or an extension/clarification of an existing one.  It's also led to confusion because I make this assumption, and people will question some things I may say because it's no longer within the context of the conversation chain.
• If a post someone makes reminds you of a trope, please make a new post to detail out the trope and try to describe it.  Assume I'm daft and may not know specifically what a colloquial term is referring to.  There's a good chance I am daft.

 

 

 

This spawned from some people having issues that we seem to fall into patterns of things like "queer female rogue" and whatnot.  I'm curious what others can come up with.  Please try to provide an explanation or some sort of context, because I'm very blind to a lot of this and I'd appreciate explanations (or links) to better understand.

 

Thanks!

 

 

Note: I'd prefer this to not be a general "what I would like to see improved with romances" but the focus to be "You often/always use the same pattern to depict this particular romance type."

 

 

The list so far (this is all manifested out of the thread so if you're curious how it got added, please check out the thread.  You can use the search function in the upper right to search this particular topic).

• If you're not straight, you're a Rogue
• If your devout, chivalric/virtuous, or knightly/heroic, you're straight.
• Bisexuals seem to have female preference
• Gay and bisexual people have dark backgrounds, that comes across as feeling like that is why they are not straight
• Bisexuals are promiscuous
• Carth Syndrome (and the fact that Women typically do not have a past relationship)
• Lesbian/Gay Tragedy
• People with dark/damaged pasts tend to be LI, and by being a LI they are "healed" (and rarely by friendship)
• Forcing LIs to "change for their own good" (Possibly related to "healing" trope)
• Men LI aren't intellectuals
• More virgin romances/LI always interested in sex before marriage
• Perceived "leading" characters are straight. 
• If a character is "unkillable" they tend to be a straight LI and not an LGBT LI
• Cunning/Manipulative LIs are typically women (Morrigan, Isabela, Miranda)
• LI are often only seen as LGBT if they're in the active romance with the player
• Women have narrower standards of beauty

[Allan Schumacher]

Bisexual/Pansexual Rogues

 

The "damaged" type(not necessarily physically, more mentally, spiritually, psychologically, or a combination of the latter three)

 

Can you elaborate a bit more?  I can see how Zevran would fit, and possibly Isabela as well (I know her past has some issues too).

[Allan Schumacher]

Well I do in early yuri manga most lesbian relationships did end tragically so thats actually a common theme in lesbian fiction, though more recent ones end more happy. I am fine with lesbian rogues since I loved both Leliana and Isabela and I will love Sera. Only thing I would like more of is a more interactive romance, like it would be great if in Inquisition if you could invite your love interest to move into your room with you. I would like the romance to not be almost ignored by the party, in the past all we have gotten is some banter and maybe a a couple of scenes like Varric asking Hawke about their relationship. I guess what I'm saying is a romance that goes farther than just sex and then thats all there is to it.  

 

That's fair, though I actually want to keep this from a general "how do we improve romances in general" type of thread.  Your feedback isn't bad by any means, but unless I'm misreading something I may have not been as clear as I would have liked in the OP?  I'm going to change the thread title to tropes/archetypes though.

 

Or is there a trope here that I'm not seeing?  (is it a trope that romance content doesn't go far enough?  Or is that a symptom of the game's narrative seeing romances as more ancillary to the main plot, and inherently optional?)

[Allan Schumacher]

I'd throw Anders into that type of category, with the Justice merger.  He's not just bisexual, but also an abomination with a spirit being slowly corrupted inside of his mind which eventually leads to him blowing up a church and starting a war.  That's where I think he fits in with the "deranged" part.

 

Anders definitely has issues, though he wouldn't fit the classification of "Bisexual/Pansexual rogue that is damaged" that was put forward.

 

Do you think the trope should be more encompassing?

[Allan Schumacher]

How would a LI that has no problems work? I mean really in most love interests thats the base for their companion quest is to help them fix what happend in the past and in turn they fall in love with you.

 

This may be my bias wording this:  Are you referring basically to a romance that is "two people end up falling in love and it is awesome?"  I know that's not phrased amazingly, but there may be some preclusion towards content (romance or otherwise) that doesn't have conflict.

 

Or is there something more here?  Perhaps the conflict is something else?

[Allan Schumacher]

Carth comes to mind. 

 

Also something else I can think of, although I'm not sure if it falls under being a trope, but I might as well say it here since devs are potentially listening. I wish you guys would make the seemingly "obvious" gay female LI's (from a completely stereotypical perspective) or companions actually gay instead of seemingly going out of your way to make them straight.

 

Aveline is one example, except she wasn't a romance for anyone. Jack is another example, and she even tells you she has had sexual relationships with women in the past, and yet is only available to men. Cassandra is the most recent example.

 

Don't wanna start an argument here about gay female stereotypes and also don't want to speculate on why this keeps happening in your games, but it's certainly something I would enjoy being changed in the future, even though I understand I am a small minority .

 

(My bias speaking) I'm not superbly well equipped to understand the "obvious" gay female LI unfortunately.  For instance, you suggest Aveline and I am "whoa... I didn't pick up on lesbian at all."  But you did.  But based on her and Cassandra, I do think I can understand the sort of similarities.

 

Framed a bit differently, is this sort of "I'd like a woman that is physical imposing and outspokenly opinionated, that is perfectly comfortable taking charge?"  There might be more to it, but those are some of the traits I can think of that seem to be shared among those that you mention.

[Allan Schumacher]

 

 

I'd call Anders damaged as well, especially by the time we see him again in DA2.  Between growing up in the Circles; being on the run for years; Grey Warden nightmares;  rarely finding love outside of trysts; trying to save his best friend and lover (I think that Karl was his first serious relationship, but I'm not sure) in a very Templar powered city; torn between himself and Justice, I'd call him damaged by the time he shows up in Act 1.  It isn't to say he's a bad character, and I don't hate the guy, but he strike me as someone that had something broken within him a long time ago.  I'd say this about him in Awakening, even before the Justice merger.  I think he was always a little damaged and broken on the inside, only that Justice made worse.  That's just me though.

 

He is damaged.  It just sounds like the trope is worthy of being expanded beyond simply rogues.  Is it safe to say you feel damaged bisexual comes up to much?

 

 

Slight tangent: I think part of the challenges with DA2's system of all the companions being bisexual creates some extra challenges, since by that very nature any of the romanceable options being damaged may serve as a reinforcement of the trope.

[Allan Schumacher]

Fenris is arguably in the same boat. He was sexually abused by Danarius. Indeed, Danarius implies that you're using him in that way as well when you encounter him at the hanged man. 

 

Would you consider Fenris promiscuous?

[Allan Schumacher]

The question is, does he have to? When characters in each game fit a certain tropes. Zevran for his promiscuous nature and Fenris for his sexual abuse, it gives that there is a reason why they are "gay" or "bi", there has to be a reason, someone can't just be gay just because.

 

The trope put forward that In Exile was responding to was "Promiscuity being tied to trust issues, an ability to commit, a history of past abusive relationships or sexual abuse."

 

Emphasis mine.

 

So to fit the trope, it'd seem like yes, he would have to be promiscuous.

[Allan Schumacher]

I think Fenris has a hard time connecting to people. With characters like Isabella and Jack, their abuse (and sexual abuse) was in the far past, relative to the present. For Fenris, his wounds are very much in the present, at least until Act III. I think he is moving toward that direction, however, at least based on his banter with Isabella. That said, they do flirt for a very long time so it's arguable: 

 

• Isabela: That night...I can't stop thinking about it.
• Fenris: Well, then I'll see you later.
• Isabela: That was direct.
• Fenris: I thought I'd get straight to the point. Were you expecting flowers or something?
• Isabela: Don't be absurd.
• Fenris: Then I'll see you tonight.

 

You do make a fair point that I should have been more specific in my post: what loomed large in my mind was that it is possible to link his sexual preference to past abuse by Danarius, rather than promiscuity. 

 

So is this a different trope that gay men (or non-heteronormative men?) often have damaged pasts?  We mentioned Jack, so probably more than just men.

 

For much of this thread have we mostly actually just been talking about a single trope, which is basically "The Damaged Past?"

[Allan Schumacher]

Morrigan and Anders also both had the added bonus of having ulterior motives for being with you.

 

I've seen some chalk this up as being positives for the romances.  Especially with Anders.  In that it added a particularly unique sense of drama.  Many also seem to consider Anders and Morrigan to be "main/more important" romances because of this.

 

 

Speaking with my bias, I also like this because I'm a giant monster and enjoy the idea that things don't play out perfectly and it isn't necessarily because of the player being Machiavellian.  Though admittedly, my reasons for engaging in romance content is decidedly less "because I want my character to be in a positive, romantic relationship with someone."  So someone who DOES want that, then it's kind of a pisser and some will feel that the romances they received are less than fair and whatnot.

[Allan Schumacher]

In the interests of having a reference point, I want to put them here.  I'll temporarily disengage from further discussion to give people a chance to respond so I can update this list.  Please let me know which ones I have missed:

 

 

• If you're not straight, you're a Rogue
• If your devout, chivalric/virtuous, or knightly/heroic, you're straight.
• Bisexuals seem to have female preference
• Gay and bisexual people have dark backgrounds, that comes across as feeling like that is why they are not straight
• Bisexuals are promiscuous
• Carth Syndrome
• Lesbian Tragedy
• People with dark/damaged pasts tend to be LI, and by being a LI they are "healed"

[Allan Schumacher]

You missed the "There seem to be no intelligent men as LI" trope. 

 

I wanted to discuss this one more with you first!

[Allan Schumacher]

I only have one unfortunate romance stereotype to mention here :- "Lack Of Intelligent Males As Love Interests."

 

We just have NEVER had an intelligent man as a love interest. This does not just apply to Bioware games though, it applies to many other forms of media like television series. 

 

With respect to Dragon Age, the only intelligent and scholarly males we have seen so far would be Solas. Evidently he is not a romance option.

 

Dorian seems to be someone, even though open minded, more on a crusade for a greater cause, not an intellectual who is interested in uncovering the mysteries of the universe, etc. 

 

When it came to Mass Effect, the only properly intelligent male follower / companion in that series was Mordin Solus and you folks made him unavailable as well.

 

Why is it when it comes to male love interests, its always peppered with angsty brooding men or pretty handsome awkward men or huge buff muscular men ? Where is the love for the intelligent, intellectual man ? 

 

FYI, I am a straight man myself. I only wonder about this because when I play as female characters or try to, I end up having nobody to romance. Which either means my female character ends up with no love interests or they become a lesbian.  

 

There only seems to be intelligent female love interests around. Liara in Mass Effect who had a doctorate and worked as an archaeologist. I am a historian who has done some archeology work myself so I can really relate to her enthusiasm and even naivety towards Protheans even though one of the first things they teach you is to not have presumptions about your work. 

 

Which is why I am interested in Josephine Montilyet. A diplomat who uses quills, inks and paper in an environment where magic and metal rule. That should imply that she has a sharp mind. 

 

Is this a more general trope?  Does it apply to women as well?  Liara probably works on some level, but I can't think of much for particularly very smart people.

 

 

Also, do you mean more "intelligent" as though "an academic" or something similar?  Like, I have a feeling if Cullen ended up being a rather cunning military strategist after all, that wouldn't satisfy this for you?

[Allan Schumacher]

It seems at least one of your romantic interest has to be involved in some Thedas changing/shattering stuff.  Morrigan and the Old God baby. Anders and mage/templar war. Allistair and if he's going to take the throne.  Merril's cute yet effectively soul crushing questline to restore a mirror that spread the Blight to the dalish warden and Temril in Origins, and had the potential to release a demon from within it that would ultimately reek blood terror and insurmountable death until finally put down.  I liked Merril for some reason.

 

Is this more of a general companion trope?  You don't necessarily need to romance them to do this, and would argue that we likely shouldn't ever make doing the romance a core aspect of this, but rather a supplementary one.

[Allan Schumacher]

If you're LI is a rogue, they most but charming, flirtatious, dark at times, and if the opportunity arises, hunted by other killers (Crows, Orelisians, or Qunari).

 

LI trope, or companion trope?  Does this happen a lot to romanceable rogues, or rogues in general?

[Allan Schumacher]

Hmm, you may have a point here.  

 

Yeah I asked about the other one as well.  I'm mostly wanting to be focused on the romance aspects, just to keep the thread on track.  That's not to say we don't have tropes we use a lot for our companions in general either.  Just for a different thread/discussion.

[Allan Schumacher]

Intelligent as in an academic and a scientist.   I really like men and women who dedicate their life and time towards understanding of the world, the universe and the reality. That type of intelligent really gets me. 

 

I suppose in Dragon Age universe these types of people are usually mages like Solas or scholars like Genitivi. 

 

If Cullen ended up as a cunning military strategist, I would be impressed by him and would respect him but I would probably not love him. 

 

Can you think of other examples, even of women?  So far I have Leliana.  Just trying to discern if our pattern is academic men, or academics in general.  I'd have to look into Dorian, as mages are typically regarded as scholarly based on fantasy conventions.  He might be able to help with that for gay men.

[Allan Schumacher]

Which reminds me! I felt like there was a pattern of many of the bi/gay characters being easily missable, or not required to recruit, or easily killed.

 

1)Leliana is easy to miss if you don't enter the tavern.

2)Zevran is easy to kill instead of recruit if you don't know he's a potential companion. The game almost encourages you to kill him when you have certain other companions with you.

3)Fenris was easily missable if you didn't read a letter in your house (I just talked to a gay guy at GaymerX who missed Fenris's recruitment quest, much to his consternation)

4)Isabella is missable (not sure on the details here, but I'ver heard lots of folks here say that she is)

 

Merrill and Anders don't fit the pattern, but 4 out of 6 is still a pretty big number, I think.

 

Tangent: Does DA2's reality of having the romanceable characters all be bisexual complicate things in any way?  It seems to me (and my bias/ignorance) that Leliana and Zeveran come across as stronger examples, by virtue that missing them can literally mean that the content of DAO completely lacks non straight content.  DA2 does not.

 

I guess what I'm saying, with limited eloquence, is "is it an establishment and reinforcement of a pattern for bisexual LI to fit a trope, if a game's LI are all bisexual?"  If the answer to this is yes, does this enforce some sort of restriction on the content we should put into a game if it had all bisexual romances?

[Allan Schumacher]

In the case of Lelianna, Zevran, and Isabela, it kind of sticks.  The only other arguable rogues (which weren't LIs) would have been Nathaniel (broodish, not flirty or really charming), Sigrun (see was Legion of the Dead, kind of self explanatory), and Varrec (who while charming, isn't all that flirtatious.  And usually doesn't have a larger organization out to kill him, save for a part of the Carta).

 

Okay.  So while it may not *need* the romance to be done, it does seem to be applied more consistently towards rogues that happen to be love interests.  So thanks.

[Allan Schumacher]

I think what they're basically saying is that they want a brainy type. You might even use the word "nerdy". Like people expect Solas to be (whether he is, it's just the impression a lot of us have gotten) or even sort of like Mordin, to some extent. 

 

I think "Academic" still works the best.  Brainy/nerdy types can still be applied to a lot of things.  But yeah, a scholar that is very interested in learning/researching/understanding.

[Allan Schumacher]

I think "The romance seems no existent except between the two involved" is a trope many games have had, just seems like for the most part the romance only exists for brief moments and then is largely forgotten.  

 

This is largely a technical/cost challenge.  Because our games aren't really designed to focus around the romance content, but that we consider it an interesting option for people to do, I think on some level we're always going to have gaps here.  Especially beyond the interactions of just the PC and the LI.

 

It can just become a real challenge to coordinate, and there's still a lot of other things that are still going to need writing/design love too.

[Allan Schumacher]

And I 100% understand that, I guess I'm envisioning a game where romance is still optional but if you do go for the romance it actually becomes an important part of the game? Almost turning the game in to a love story along with being a story of saving the world. But then again that's the romantic in me lol I like a good love story. 

 

I think that that would work best if we made a game where a romance was a key part of the game (maybe like FF8 or something like that).  Not saying that we can't do that, but unless it is I think it'll always be a problem.

 

As it stands, the biggest part of that is that a valid complaint I find (especially with say, ME games) is that romance content was almost the ONLY companion content people got.  Which isn't ideal by any means.

[Allan Schumacher]

Sure. It did occur to me that it complicates things a bit. I think maybe, on second thought, I'm realizing that my bigger issue is that, with, I think, the exception of Merrill, all the bisexual LIs could be avoided, killed, or abandoned to some horrible fate. It's uncomfortable to think that Bioware might be (intentional or not) writing in "outs" for the homophobic (or homouncomfortable) players to either avoid or kill any bisexual love interests that they don't want to have to interact with.

 

Zevran could be killed immediately after you meet him, thus avoiding the recruitment.

Leliana could be avoided or killed (Andraste's ashes quest)

Isabela could be avoided or handed over to the Arishok

Fenris could be avoided or given back to Danarius

Ander could be killed (I almost hesitate to list this because it was a really well integrated plot option, but it still gave straight guy gamers the chance to essentially kill the gay man who hit on them)

 

I haven't played the other Bioware games, but I think it was said that:

 

Steve could die (?)
Kaidan you could chose to save someone else and thus let him die (?)

 

There was also a character I remember folks talking about from KOTOR, I think, who was a gay LI that was killable and that it was a thing that straight guys were bragging about killing him?

 

Anyone else want to/can add more?

 

We'd have to do a bit more thorough analysis over who can die among the LI.

 

 

From DAO:

Alistair can die

Leliana can die

Zevran can die

(I don't think Morrigan can?)

 

 

From DA2:

 

Isabela/Fenris/Anders can all have **** things happen to them.  Merrill is free?  I cannot remember

 

 

 

From Mass Effect 1:

 

The choice is between Ashley and Kaiden, whom are both LI, between who lives and who dies.

 

 

ME2:

 

All companions (LI or not) can end up dead in the game.

 

 

ME3
I'm not sure, TBH.  Beyond Steve crashing and whatnot.  I think with extended cut, anyone can die at the very end.

 

 

The Mass Effect games, however, have poor LGBT representation in general.

 

 

We could just be giant monsters that likes to kill off love interests!  How does the distribution look to you?

[Allan Schumacher]

Yeah I understand that, I mean don't get me wrong I don't mean to sound ungrateful or anything I always though Dragon Age did romance better than Mass Effect and I was happy when you guys announced that romance was getting an overhaul 

 

You don't sound ungrateful.  I'm also answering it because I'm sure other people also share the perspective, and it can help them out too.  Apologies if I came across a bit overbearing with it.