579 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Nuggins]

Alistair can be dead, or a drunk. so he don't fill the "gary stue" thing. I can't remember female LIs ending up as bad as he can...most of them are untouchable with heavy plot armor that male LI don't have.

 

I'm not sure that 2 female LIs reappearing in a later game is enough to make it a trope.  Also, while Alistair can be dead or a drunk, in the novels he's not, and it seems to be kind of assumed that he's going to be king in most people's playthroughs.  He is also confirmed for DAI, so he's now reoccurring for all three games.  The only other characters I can think of who can appear for all 3 are Leliana and Cullen. 

 

But I don't think Alistair is a Gary Stu, any more than I think any female LIs are Mary Sues.  Tallis doesn't count either way, because she's DLC and not an LI.

[Kalamah]

It's probably because you can kill him, disagree with him and utterly ruin him.

 

That's exactly what stops him from being a sue.

 

I don't agree with any of the female companions being a sue (though I thought Tallis was pushing that envelope pretty damn hard). But the female companions? No. Though you don't really get the chance to utterly screw with them the way you can the main males.

I guess I can see that, but I'm not sure that simply being able to kill him makes him any less of a Stu. After all, implausible immortality is not an essential trait of being a Sue/Stu, though it is a common one, because plot-necessary immortality is a trait that central characters to a story tend to have... when their deaths aren't plot devices (see: fridging female characters to further a man's story) or as a result of other narrative events.

 

Edit: by which I mean my main issue is not that certain female characters are immortal, but the way in which they're immortal. Being allowed to kill them and then having that retconned is sloppy writing.

[Felya87]

I'm not sure that 2 female LIs reappearing in a later game is enough to make it a trope.  Also, while Alistair can be dead or a drunk, in the novels he's not, and it seems to be kind of assumed that he's going to be king in most people's playthroughs.  He is also confirmed for DAI, so he's now reoccurring for all three games.  The only other characters I can think of who can appear for all 3 are Leliana and Cullen. 

 

But I don't think Alistair is a Gary Stu, any more than I think any female LIs are Mary Sues.  Tallis doesn't count either way, because she's DLC and not an LI.

 

it was already said Alistair if is dead in a player universe, is dead. no matter the novels.

the fact that he is king in most playthroughs doesn't mean he will be resurrected and made king. Anora will probably have the same role if she is Queen.

 

so he is a variable, at most. surely he isn't as protected as are characters like Isabela, Morrigan and Leliana.

[Ryzaki]

I guess I can see that, but I'm not sure that simply being able to kill him makes him any less of a Stu. After all, implausible immortality is not an essential trait of being a Sue/Stu, though it is a common one, because plot-necessary immortality is a trait that central characters to a story tend to have... when their deaths aren't plot devices (see: fridging female characters to further a man's story) or as a result of other narrative events.

 

It's the ruining part. You can break him pretty much. Turning him into a raving drunk, stabbing him in the back completely and having him miserable. It's not like no matter what you do he wins.

 

Also when being able to kill him stops his plot relevancy in future games so it helps. I can choose not to see alistair in future content. That's not the case with Morrigan and Leliana.

[Kalamah]

It's the ruining part. You can break him pretty much. Turning him into a raving drunk, stabbing him in the back completely and having him miserable. It's not like no matter what you do he wins.

 

Also when being able to kill him stops his plot relevancy in future games so it helps. I can choose not to see alistair in future content. That's not the case with Morrigan and Leliana.

Yeah, I agree with this when you put it that way. But then I'd be annoyed if we could "totally ruin" a female character in a similar way, because the prime motivation for doing so would be "because she's a (competent) woman" even if excuses could be made for reasons to do so. Like, my main issue isn't that certain female characters are vital and unkillable, but that we were given the choice to kill them at all despite their essential roles later on. I mean, the writers made the choice to allow us to kill them, and rather than create a replacement character for the essential role later on, they retconned our choices.

[Lady Nuggins]

Yeah, I agree with this when you put it that way. But then I'd be annoyed if we could "totally ruin" a female character in a similar way, because the prime motivation for doing so would be "because she's a (competent) woman" even if excuses could be made for reasons to do so. Like, my main issue isn't that certain female characters are vital and unkillable, but that we were given the choice to kill them at all despite their essential roles later on. I mean, the writers made the choice to allow us to kill them, and rather than create a replacement character for the essential role later on, they retconned our choices.

 

Okay, but is this specifically a romance trope now, or is this more a general issue with consistency between the games?

[Ryzaki]

Yeah, I agree with this when you put it that way. But then I'd be annoyed if we could "totally ruin" a female character in a similar way, because the prime motivation for doing so would be "because she's a (competent) woman" even if excuses could be made for reasons to do so. Like, my main issue isn't that certain female characters are vital and unkillable, but that we were given the choice to kill them at all despite their essential roles later on. I mean, the writers made the choice to allow us to kill them, and rather than create a replacement character for the essential role later on, they retconned our choices.

 

Why would that have to be the prime motivation? It simply can't because the player doesn't agree with their goals? or because they're incompetent?

 

Honestly I rather the unkillable characters be a mix of gender instead of only female. Particularly female LIs get the unkillable hat and the male LIs are left behind in the dust.

 

But agreed. If the devs are later gonna pull the Prince of Persia "uh...that didn't happen." they might as well not give the choice in the first place.

[Kalamah]

Okay, but is this specifically a romance trope now, or is this more a general issue with consistency between the games?

I'd say it's relevant because the characters we can kill are all LI's, and it's an overall trend that we've noticed with male vs. female LI's. However, yeah, it is straying a bit toward a more general "writing tropes we dislike" thing, even if it's tangentially relevant.

[Magdalena11]

Okay, I'll just leave then. I realized how many people are objecting to my post now and I don't feel like responding to any drama.

Sometimes the drama/reaction is what makes you think.  It's not necessarily bad.  Just don't let it ruin your experience.  If it does, shut it off and take a sabbatical for a little while.  I had to do that and it helped tremendously.

[Kalamah]

Why would that have to be the prime motivation? It simply can't because the player doesn't agree with their goals? or because they're incompetent?

 

Honestly I rather the unkillable characters be a mix of gender instead of only female. Particularly female LIs get the unkillable hat and the male LIs are left behind in the dust.

 

But agreed. If the devs are later gonna pull the Prince of Persia "uh...that didn't happen." they might as well not give the choice in the first place.

I've seen one too many people hate on female characters for the same things male characters have to believe that they wouldn't try to kill off a woman for being a "threat" to them, regardless of how logical it is or what excuses they make for it. That said, there are valid reasons for disliking female characters, and I sure as heck am rather irked with Leliana's presence for a few reasons, but I'm not the sort to drive off or kill companions just because I (strongly) dislike them. The one exception thus far that I have is my refusal to kill Anders just to keep Sebastian, but that's more because I hate being forced to choose between killing a character or letting them live just to keep someone else around. The fact I dislike Sebastian as a character is secondary to my stubborn refusal to literally stab someone else in the back over him.

 

I wouldn't mind at all if we got more unkillable characters, male or female, to be clear. I do, however, hope that we don't get any more "We let you kill them, but lol just kidding, they're back! Deal with it." because that is sloppy and terrible writing period.

[Magdalena11]

I've seen one too many people hate on female characters for the same things male characters have to believe that they wouldn't try to kill off a woman for being a "threat" to them, regardless of how logical it is or what excuses they make for it. That said, there are valid reasons for disliking female characters, and I sure as heck am rather irked with Leliana's presence for a few reasons, but I'm not the sort to drive off or kill companions just because I (strongly) dislike them. The one exception thus far that I have is my refusal to kill Anders just to keep Sebastian, but that's more because I hate being forced to choose between killing a character or letting them live just to keep someone else around. The fact I dislike Sebastian as a character is secondary to my stubborn refusal to literally stab someone else in the back over him.

 

I wouldn't mind at all if we got more unkillable characters, male or female, to be clear. I do, however, hope that we don't get any more "We let you kill them, but lol just kidding, they're back! Deal with it." because that is sloppy and terrible writing period.

The last paragraph in all caps with bold and underlining says it all.  If they've got plot armor, say it out loud and be proud.

[Kalamah]

On the other hand, invariably providing the (presumably male) protagonist with the ability to kill off male rivals while protecting his female LI from any harm might also be considered a form of misogyny. And unlike their female counterparts, those male rivals will *stay* dead. For more than half of them, their death is the default import state.

And this is how this sort of thing is relevant as a troubling trend. Though to be technical, it's less misogyny and more patriarchy. I haven't yet seen any evidence that male gamers do this thing for that "threat elimination" reason, but it does speak to a subtle bias of gender dynamics. I can't say I really mind that the killable males stay dead, because retconning their deaths would be just as annoying as when it happens to women. But I honestly don't really like being able to kill LI's period, though that's more of a personal thing related more to my own playstyle in that I do my darnest to keep ALL companions to the very end.

 

In any case, I would definitely say that this ties into unfortunate romance tropes because of the ways in which the overall narrative is one-sided when it respects player choice regarding LI's and killability.

[Ryzaki]

I've seen one too many people hate on female characters for the same things male characters have to believe that they wouldn't try to kill off a woman for being a "threat" to them, regardless of how logical it is or what excuses they make for it. That said, there are valid reasons for disliking female characters, and I sure as heck am rather irked with Leliana's presence for a few reasons, but I'm not the sort to drive off or kill companions just because I (strongly) dislike them. The one exception thus far that I have is my refusal to kill Anders just to keep Sebastian, but that's more because I hate being forced to choose between killing a character or letting them live just to keep someone else around. The fact I dislike Sebastian as a character is secondary to my stubborn refusal to literally stab someone else in the back over him.

 

I wouldn't mind at all if we got more unkillable characters, male or female, to be clear. I do, however, hope that we don't get any more "We let you kill them, but lol just kidding, they're back! Deal with it." because that is sloppy and terrible writing period.

 

Ah I see. I don't mind killing characters cause they're a threat What'd I absolutely want though is the ability to tell everyone to GTFO right after their recruitment mission. Killing isn't necessary if I can do that.

 

Oh god agreed. It's just such a lame way to offer "choice" and not go through with it.

[Magdalena11]

I am making a promise to myself this time around to actually role-play.  If a character drives me absolutely crazy to the point where I wish I can kill them, I'm just going to cut the drama and tell them to leave.  Seriously, I gave up a lucrative profession because the stress effects on my health were too detrimental.  Why am I forcing myself to endure something I hate because it's supposed to be fun?

[DarthLaxian]

Ooh how interesting!

 

One trope that bothers me a little bit is the "doomed lover" and/or "still in love with the previous girlfriend guy" that I feel straight female protagonists get quite often. Mind you I can't off the top of my head think of examples from Dragon Age (the ones in my head are from Mass Effect), but I feel that if Blackwall were a LI, he would fall into at least one of those quite easily. 

 

We have that one for straight and bisexual people, too - the advisors in Dragon Age: Inquisition (Leliana and Morrigan at least - they can't be romanced, because they are supposedly still pining after the Warden (even if he or she dissapeared ages ago -.-))

 

I would love to be able to go after them (hell, I would love to ask Leliana about my warden (with the keep helping to lock in my decisions, she should have an oppinion on those!) and their relationship etc. and then romance her, maybe compare the new character to the old etc.) and I can't understand the reluctance of the devs (surely most fans would not want to roast them, if they do it right!)

 

greetings LAX

[LPPrince]

Diggin the list in the OP, thanks for raising the subject for discussion Mr. Schumacher.

[Enigmatick]

More virgin romances comes off as fetishistic waifu requesting to me.

 

I also disagree with the unkillable LGBT companions bit, I feel the optimal standard for the games should be to allow the player to kill whatever companion/npc they like if they can find a good reason when you make a bulletin like this I feel you'll just endeavor more characters unkillable instead of just making companions mortal regardless of who they choose to bed.

[HackettOut]

This isn't a competition for who put in the most amount of work.  I spent 3 hours (from 12 AM to 3 AM) on the very first day talking with people and collating information, several hours beyond that coming up with ideas to help keep the thread on track and removing off topic posts, entirely on my own time (I'm not getting paid for this....) because I thought I saw a recurring theme in the romance thread and I wanted to solicit additional feedback.

 

I'm sure several other people have put large amounts of thought into their posts as well, including the ideas that women LIs have a much narrower range of physical traits that get utilized than men do (it's listed as one of the points in the OP)

 

 

To be clear:

 

 

We "object" to making any character simply for them to be romanced.  Including humans and elves.  Cassandra isn't made romanceable because some people wanted to romance her.  Iron Bull isn't made romanceable because some people wanted to romance a male Qunari.  Cullen isn't made romanceable because he has a large following of people that would like to romance him.  Sera isn't made romanceable because we figure some people would like to romance a lesbian elf.  Dorian isn't made romanceable because someone might want to romance a gay Tevinter mage.  Nor is Josephine made romanceable because we figure someone would want to romance an Antivan diplomat.

 

The I'm not really keen on the word "object" it's just not a factor at the start of the character creation process.  Are you asking for it to be?

 

 

However, your complaint seems to be more geared towards general companions (which is valid) as opposed to romance specific.  Though I acknowledge that the next step from making more Qunari/Dwarf women companions for you is to make them romanceable.  Do you think that the inclusion of more diversity among the women as companions will encourage the romances to come out of that, or do you think that we should specifically set out to create romanceable characters that fit these traits?

 

Upon reading your replies I feel my initial complaints about the lack of Dwarf/Qunari romance options are wrong, writing a certain character/race simply to fill a race/LI diversity quota would likely be bad for the character and result in shoehorning a certain race/gender combo into a role it really doesent fit. I believe you mentioned something about Josephine filling the diplomat role and how changing her race for the sake of fitting in a dwarf or something into the role would be folly and honestly after I got over my desire for Dwarf or Qunari LI's I realized... you are probably right.

 

With that said though, It is a bit noticable that dragon age seems to only make female humans as important characters/Companions. I'm just wondering if it was intentional because an "ugly" (Not your typical standard of beauty) female companion would probably be unpopular(and honestly thats probably true but the fault would lie with the audience rather then the writer) or is it just harder to write compeling non human females? (sigrun at least showed its not impossible).

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Jus some thoughts on the list so far:

 

 

• If you're not straight, you're a Rogue

I'm not sure why this is 'unfoirtunate', but ok

• If your devout, chivalric/virtuous, or knightly/heroic, you're straight.

Leliana is bi/devout

Counter example, Morrigan is none of the above and is straight. (She also fits into other tropes that are not romance related)

Oghren is none of the above and straight, although not an LI

Really, are there any other examples of this besides Alistair? How does one ocurrence make a trend?

• Bisexuals seem to have female preference

Based on??

• Gay and bisexual people have dark backgrounds, that comes across as feeling like that is why they are not straight
• Bisexuals are promiscuous
• Carth Syndrome (and the fact that Women typically do not have a past relationship)
• Lesbian/Gay Tragedy
• People with dark/damaged pasts tend to be LI, and by being a LI they are "healed" (and rarely by friendship)
• Forcing LIs to "change for their own good" (Possibly related to "healing" trope)
• Men LI aren't intellectuals
• More virgin romances/LI always interested in sex before marriage
• Perceived "leading" characters are straight. 
• If a character is "unkillable" they tend to be a straight LI and not an LGBT LI

Leliana and Liara are obvious counter examples. They remained very much alive throughout the three games they've appeared in. Ashley/Kaidan on the other hand...  (Kaidan was straight (as far as the player knew) up until ME3)

• Cunning/Manipulative LIs are typically women (Morrigan, Isabela, Miranda)

There don't seem to be many cunning/manipulative male characters in Bioware games at all.

• LI are often only seen as LGBT if they're in the active romance with the player

I'd say if not in an active romance, their sexuality does not usually come up at all.

• Women have narrower standards of beauty

Do men have standards of beauty at all?

[Allan Schumacher]

Off topic post removed.

 

 

 

Jus some thoughts on the list so far:

 

Read the thread.  I don't have the time to specifically link to each of the issues listed in the list unfortunately, but they all manifested out of the discussion in this thread.  Most of your questions are explained there.

 

Further, that there are exceptions to any of these has often been discussed, nor does it invalidate their presence on the list.

 

 

 

 

Counter example, Morrigan is none of the above and is straight.

 

This isn't a counterexample.  It's irrelevant to the trope.  The idea "If your devout, chivalric/virtuous, or knightly/heroic, you're straight." is an implication and not reflective.  It's not saying at all that straight people fit into a particular style.  It's saying that if you fit into a particular style, you [tend] to be straight.  It's not bidirectional nor does it have to be.

[Ailith Tycane]

 

It's starting to feel like Bioware is overcompensating by making every Amazon/warrior type straight instead of gay or bisexual, in order to avoid playing into stereotypes of "strong" women being gay or bisexual.

 

Yes, it certainly does feel that way.  

 

I feel like Allan has been made well aware of this so I wont harp on it too much more, I would just to make it clear how much this is something I would personally enjoy having in future games. 

 

Edit: To clarify, how much I would enjoy the option to romance a slightly more masculine warrior woman.

[Lady Nuggins]

 

• If you're not straight, you're a Rogue

I'm not sure why this is 'unfoirtunate', but ok

 

It's really just the fact that rogues tend to be a rather specific character "type."  Questionable morals, inclination for deception, willing to literally or figuratively backstab a person, willing to do shady things for money.  They rarely have noble goals, they are often promiscuous, they're often out for their own survival above anything else, they are often the jokers and tricksters of the group.  Even Leliana, for all her devout religion, is still a trained assassin. 

 

I love rogues, but making so many rogues bi or lesbian seems to imply that these traits go hand-in-hand with not being straight.  Sure, the "flamboyant rogue" character is a fun archetype, but it starts to get old after a while. 

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Yes, it certainly does feel that way.  
 
I feel like Allan has been made well aware of this so I wont harp on it too much more, I would just to make it clear how much this is something I would personally enjoy having in future games. 
 
Edit: To clarify, how much I would enjoy the option to romance a slightly more masculine warrior woman.

You only need to look at Xena the Warrior Princess's fan base to see that lesbians (why is my phone trying to tell me lesbians isn't a word?) love tall warrior women. They tried to make Xena straight but it just wasn't happening.

I would like a more Xena like LI but to be honest I'm just happy lgbt characters are included at all.



I was going to say that ice queen type characters tend to be straight. But that's only really Morrigan and Miranda so I don't think that counts as a trend. Besides you could argue silk fox is a bit of an ice queen too.

[Ryzaki]

You only need to look at Xena the Warrior Princess's fan base to see that lesbians (why is my phone trying to tell me lesbians isn't a word?) love tall warrior women. They tried to make Xena straight but it just wasn't happening.

I would like a more Xena like LI but to be honest I'm just happy lgbt characters are included at all.



I was going to say that ice queen type characters tend to be straight. But that's only really Morrigan and Miranda so I don't think that counts as a trend. Besides you could argue silk fox is a bit of an ice queen too.

 

Viconia was a ice queen no?

 

The Ice queen types are always females too. I'm trying to think of a male you had to defrost in a BW game and can't think of a one.

[Kallimachus]

• If your devout, chivalric/virtuous, or knightly/heroic, you're straight.

Leliana is bi/devout

 

Leliana is many things, and she is indeed devout, heroic and arguably virtuous (she has a rather sordid past, and depending on some game events, may have an "end justifies means" thing going on), she is neither chivalric nor knightly.

 

That line is shorthand for a post I (and I think a few others) wrote about the character type of "knight in shining armour", i.e. noble, connected to the church in some manner, generally a do-gooder, and a paladin-like warrior. The characters the fill this trope are Alistair, Sebastian, Cullen, and Cassandra. I suppose if you include older "legacy" games, you might also add Aribeth (in NWN1) and Anomen here, but since those games are old enough not to have been written with diversity in mind, I'm not certain if their inclusion is fair or not.

 

Also, Aribeth's name always gives me the creeps because her name is so similar to Aribert Heim's