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Yes, that's still the point though, there has to be a REASON for someone to be gay or bi. They couldn't just happen to be the way they are. Since we are discussing tropes and all. I'm just saying the trope that people turn gay for a reason.
I agree with you entirely; I should have been clear. My point was just that I find it more problematic if someone says "X was trained to be bisexual" versus "X is super promiscuous". I suppose that's YMMV.
To be fair, I like Iron Bull as an option, but he falls into the promiscuous bisexual trope. It seems like the sexual minority in DA all fall under certain tropes of some kinds. It would have been nice to have someone like Kaidan who people would ever say to be "gay" actually the gay option.
Iron Bull is just evidence that they aren't only making flamboyant men into gay/bi LIs. He's certainly more traditionally masculine than Alistair, Sebastian or Cullen, so it must be something about the type that they have a hard time imagining as gay.
I don't actually believe Dorian is flamboyant in a Hollywood gay way, though. I think that's largely projecting on the fanbase's part. We haven't seen enough of him to know that and he didn't seem overly flamboyant in the demo. He's just a "dashing rogue" stereotype (not the class, but the personality). I could easily see his personality type being a total womanizer, from the bit we've seen of him. He's definitely not the "nice guy" type, like Cullen, though.
I think Fenris has a hard time connecting to people. With characters like Isabella and Jack, their abuse (and sexual abuse) was in the far past, relative to the present. For Fenris, his wounds are very much in the present, at least until Act III. I think he is moving toward that direction, however, at least based on his banter with Isabella. That said, they do flirt for a very long time so it's arguable:
- Isabela: That night...I can't stop thinking about it.
- Fenris: Well, then I'll see you later.
- Isabela: That was direct.
- Fenris: I thought I'd get straight to the point. Were you expecting flowers or something?
- Isabela: Don't be absurd.
- Fenris: Then I'll see you tonight.
You do make a fair point that I should have been more specific in my post: what loomed large in my mind was that it is possible to link his sexual preference to past abuse by Danarius, rather than promiscuity.
So is this a different trope that gay men (or non-heteronormative men?) often have damaged pasts? We mentioned Jack, so probably more than just men.
For much of this thread have we mostly actually just been talking about a single trope, which is basically "The Damaged Past?"
The trope put forward that In Exile was responding to was "Promiscuity being tied to trust issues, an ability to commit, a history of past abusive relationships or sexual abuse."
Emphasis mine.
So to fit the trope, it'd seem like yes, he would have to be promiscuous.
Allan is entirely right here. The post essentially stood out to me like so:
"Promiscuity being tied to trust issues, an ability to commit, a history of past abusive relationships or sexual abuse."
Which is why I brought up Fenris, but he doesn't fit the pattern well, if at all.
I'll quote myself from a different thread:
I was listening to the romance panel recording from GaymerX, about how they try to write romances for charaters for same sex or opposite sex and then feel like the romance doesn't work for one of those options, and so they either try a different approach or "gate" the romance for just one gender option, and a thought ocurred to me.
In all three games in the series there is always one guy LI who is a sort of knight-in-shining-armour, religious, holy-ish, paladin-like type figure. And always, this type of character (you know who I'm talking about) is strictly straight (even in DA2 which is often maligned for making "everyone bisexual"). Always. In this game, we even got a female character that fits this description, not just a guy, and guess what? Straight. So what is it about that sort of characters that makes the writers think they don't work as same sex LI? I'm not sure what to make of this.
So there. The "noble do-gooders" as Maria Caliban described them in that thread, are always straight.
I've noticed that basically all of the bisexual men act more or talk more about their attraction to women. Their attraction to men feels much more hidden away.
Sky - Had a dead wife, and you really have to go out of your way to romance him as a man.
Zevran - Pretty much says he prefers women. Has a dead female love interest.
Anders - In DA:A, he said that he all wants is a pretty girl (and the right to shoot lightning at fools). Does not mention that Karl was his lover unless you play as male.
Fenris - Gets with Isabela if you don't romance either.
Kaidan - In Mass Effect 1, can only be romanced by female Shepard. Arguably the entire thing with Rahna and Jump Zero. Makes several comments about finding women beautiful, including EDI.
There are more animations used with female Shepard than male Shepard while Kaidan is romanced.
Bisexuals can prefer one gender more than another, but I'd like to see more diversity in regards to the romantic histories of these love interests and the people they mention they are attracted to, even if you aren't romancing them.
I only have one unfortunate romance stereotype to mention here :- "Lack Of Intelligent Males As Love Interests."
We just have NEVER had an intelligent man as a love interest. This does not just apply to Bioware games though, it applies to many other forms of media like television series.
With respect to Dragon Age, the only intelligent and scholarly males we have seen so far would be Solas. Evidently he is not a romance option.
Dorian seems to be someone, even though open minded, more on a crusade for a greater cause, not an intellectual who is interested in uncovering the mysteries of the universe, etc.
When it came to Mass Effect, the only properly intelligent male follower / companion in that series was Mordin Solus and you folks made him unavailable as well.
Why is it when it comes to male love interests, its always peppered with angsty brooding men or pretty handsome awkward men or huge buff muscular men ? Where is the love for the intelligent, intellectual man ?
FYI, I am a straight man myself. I only wonder about this because when I play as female characters or try to, I end up having nobody to romance. Which either means my female character ends up with no love interests or they become a lesbian.
There only seems to be intelligent female love interests around. Liara in Mass Effect who had a doctorate and worked as an archaeologist. I am a historian who has done some archeology work myself so I can really relate to her enthusiasm and even naivety towards Protheans even though one of the first things they teach you is to not have presumptions about your work. 
Which is why I am interested in Josephine Montilyet. A diplomat who uses quills, inks and paper in an environment where magic and metal rule. That should imply that she has a sharp mind.
The question is, does he have to? When characters in each game fit a certain tropes. Zevran for his promiscuous nature and Fenris for his sexual abuse, it gives that there is a reason why they are "gay" or "bi", there has to be a reason, someone can't just be gay just because.
That's just based on perspective because it never is a case where a person is gay because of an event. Think of it that they are gay or bi and they happen to be sexually abuse. You have to consider in chase they have to be promiscuous if they are willing. A person hit on someone and not be attracted to them but are doing it for hr the mission they are on.
So is this a different trope that gay men (or non-heteronormative men?) often have damaged pasts? We mentioned Jack, so probably more than just men.
For much of this thread have we mostly actually just been talking about a single trope, which is basically "The Damaged Past?"
I'm not sure if it's an established trope, so much as it is that our concern centers around the idea that it feels like there has to be a formative experience that explains to the player why it is that a particular character is gay or bi. Zevran had training. Fenris had sexual abuse. Anders is a bit different, but his conversation felt a bit more like "I am attract to men because of my relationship with Karl", versus "I am attracted to me, leading to my relationship with Karl". But that last one is a big YMMV, and Anders' bucket of crazy otherwise felt unrelated to his sexuality (to me). Though he was promiscious - see e.g. his conversations with Leliana about hooking up with the Lay Warden (I think that was the name), etc. in Ferelden.
The Viconia-
Character who is a tsundere type( a woman or male with a hard hostile personality) becomes attracted to mc(mostly males and one time female) and over the coarse of the romance has conflict with romancing the character while at the same time the more pleasant side of the persona is seen by the mc. The climax is when they question if they should romance the mc or not which can be the saving point of breaking point of the romance.
First seen in BG2 with Viconna and is in nearly even bw game since.
Victims are: Viconia, Bastila, Silkfox,Ashley,Morgan,Miranda, Jack, and Fenris,
I hate the Viconia archetype. But I understand that a lot of people like it.
What concerns me now, if the games are going to step away from the "all bi/playersexual" model is gone for good, is that this archetype will always be the same orientation: Straight female. For some reason. Which means that the archetypes that don't make the bile rise in my stomach will end up being spread out to other orientations. Sometimes Bi, sometimes Lesbian.
I'm hoping the writers don't think this type of LI is something all straight guys like. Or that females looking for a f/f relationship don't like this archetype.
The trope put forward that In Exile was responding to was "Promiscuity being tied to trust issues, an ability to commit, a history of past abusive relationships or sexual abuse."
Emphasis mine.
So to fit the trope, it'd seem like yes, he would have to be promiscuous.
Yeah, I agree with this trope being a problem, though if you replace "Promiscuity" with "bisexuality" that's the bigger concern for me. Then again, bisexuality being tied to promiscuity is also a problem when we start to see it over and over. It'd be nice to have a bisexual LI (or 2 or 3) who is bisexual without being promiscuous (hopefully Josephine?).
To me, virginal romance trope becomes a tad repetitive. Alistair, Merrill, Sebastian and now Cullen. Alistair and Cullen especially look like twins.
Iron Bull is just evidence that they aren't only making flamboyant men into gay/bi LIs. He's certainly more traditionally masculine than Alistair, Sebastian or Cullen, so it must be something about the type that they have a hard time imagining as gay.
I don't actually believe Dorian is flamboyant in a Hollywood gay way, though. I think that's largely projecting on the fanbase's part. We haven't seen enough of him to know that and he didn't seem overly flamboyant in the demo. He's just a "dashing rogue" stereotype (not the class, but the personality). I could easily see his personality type being a total womanizer, from the bit we've seen of him. He's definitely not the "nice guy" type, like Cullen, though.
You're gonna get me out of likes, you know? 
I don't see dorian as a typical gay flamboyant either, just a typical high class and pretentious guy. He could have been bi or straight perfectly. But I'm still awaiting for someone like kaidan, or Cortez, they got them damn right on ME 3. (Well, kaidan SHOULD have been a Bi Li since ME1, but I'll bypass that). They have their past baggage, trust issues and problems, and still, are awesome companions that don't fit the tropes at all. They are so perfect that I'm scared sometimes.
To me, virginal romance trope becomes a tad repetitive. Alistair, Merrill, Sebastian and now Cullen. Alistair and Cullen especially look like twins.
Is Cullen a virgin in DA:I? Who said that?
That just based on perspective because it never is a case where a person is gay because of an event. Think of it that they are gay or bi and they happen to be sexually abuse. You have to consider in chase they have to be promiscuous if they are willing. A person hit on someone and not be attracted to them but are doing it for hr the mission they are on.
I think I have more of a problem with being straight needs no justification for why they are straight, but being gay has to have some kinds of trauma past or being trained to be that way. Make it seem like a choice. You have to also take into consideration of people who don't interact with gay people, and they're being exposed to gay characters through the media. Some of my family members actually believe that gays can only be gay because they're being molested.
It's not just having a damaged past, though.
Garrus (ME, I know) has a personal quest you need to complete before you can romance him. (His bro who betrayed him) But it wasn't really interfering with his ability to connect emotionally. Alistair was depressed throughout most of Origins due to Duncan and, later on, his sister/family. But he was still able to form healthy-ish emotional connections.
Leliana, Zevran, Fenris, Anders, Merrill, Isabela, Morrigan...I wouldn't call their emotional connections to the PC as healthy. Not really.
Morrigan and Anders also both had the added bonus of having ulterior motives for being with you.
I've noticed that basically all of the bisexual men act more or talk more about their attraction to women. Their attraction to men feels much more hidden away.
Sky - Had a dead wife, and you really have to go out of your way to romance him as a man.
Zevran - Pretty much says he prefers women. Has a dead female love interest.
Anders - In DA:A, he said that he all wants is a pretty girl (and the right to shoot lightning at fools). Does not mention that Karl was his lover unless you play as male.
Fenris - Gets with Isabela if you don't romance either.
Kaidan - In Mass Effect 1, can only be romanced by female Shepard. Arguably the entire thing with Rahna and Jump Zero. Makes several comments about finding women beautiful, including EDI.
There are more animations used with female Shepard than male Shepard while Kaidan is romanced.
Bisexuals can prefer one gender more than another, but I'd like to see more diversity in regards to the romantic histories of these love interests and the people they mention they are attracted to, even if you aren't romancing them.
1. BS male usally do perfer woman.
2. Zevran does have male lovers.
3. Fenris hate the other male in the group that's also into dudes.
6 out of 11 (more than half) of all bisexual love interests so far (including those announced in DA:I) in the fantasy games Bioware have done are rogues who have a criminal or otherwise shady profession/past. 9 out of 11 are a rogue or a mage. Only one can be considered a front line fighter type or warrior (Fenris).
I only have one unfortunate romance stereotype to mention here :- "Lack Of Intelligent Males As Love Interests."
We just have NEVER had an intelligent man as a love interest. This does not just apply to Bioware games though, it applies to many other forms of media like television series.
With respect to Dragon Age, the only intelligent and scholarly males we have seen so far would be Solas. Evidently he is not a romance option.
Dorian seems to be someone, even though open minded, more on a crusade for a greater cause, not an intellectual who is interested in uncovering the mysteries of the universe, etc.
When it came to Mass Effect, the only properly intelligent male follower / companion in that series was Mordin Solus and you folks made him unavailable as well.
Why is it when it comes to male love interests, its always peppered with angsty brooding men or pretty handsome awkward men or huge buff muscular men ? Where is the love for the intelligent, intellectual man ?
FYI, I am a straight man myself. I only wonder about this because when I play as female characters or try to, I end up having nobody to romance. Which either means my female character ends up with no love interests or they become a lesbian.
There only seems to be intelligent female love interests around. Liara in Mass Effect who had a doctorate and worked as an archaeologist. I am a historian who has done some archeology work myself so I can really relate to her enthusiasm and even naivety towards Protheans even though one of the first things they teach you is to not have presumptions about your work.
Which is why I am interested in Josephine Montilyet. A diplomat who uses quills, inks and paper in an environment where magic and metal rule. That should imply that she has a sharp mind.
I agree on this.
SWTOR has a brilliant scientist almost-LI, but he dumps the PC for his hologram waifu. There's also a gifted doctor/surgeon who is a LI and a male diplomat who is very well-spoken and knowledgeable about first contact type things. The latter two are not Mordin-style uber-geniuses, but they definitely stand out as being brainier than the other men in their pool, both in SWTOR, ME and DA. And that's kinda sad.
I've noticed that basically all of the bisexual men act more or talk more about their attraction to women. Their attraction to men feels much more hidden away.
Sky - Had a dead wife, and you really have to go out of your way to romance him as a man.
Zevran - Pretty much says he prefers women. Has a dead female love interest.
Anders - In DA:A, he said that he all wants is a pretty girl (and the right to shoot lightning at fools). Does not mention that Karl was his lover unless you play as male.
Fenris - Gets with Isabela if you don't romance either.
Kaidan - In Mass Effect 1, can only be romanced by female Shepard. Arguably the entire thing with Rahna and Jump Zero. Makes several comments about finding women beautiful, including EDI.
There are more animations used with female Shepard than male Shepard while Kaidan is romanced.
Bisexuals can prefer one gender more than another, but I'd like to see more diversity in regards to the romantic histories of these love interests and the people they mention they are attracted to, even if you aren't romancing them.
Just want to repost this to agree with it. It would be lovely to have a bisexual male who had a preference for men (even if he was romance-able by men or women). Maybe it makes some people feel 'special' but It gets tiring to feel like you're the LI's "exception to their usual rule".
Actually that's another trope I dislike (often seen in Japanese BL-- boy's love-- manga), where one of the men is, for all intents and purposes 'straight', but they make an exception for one particular guy. I know that's not exactly what's going on here, but when you're romancing a bisexual male who clearly prefers women, it can start to feel like the "Only Gay for You" trope.
EDIT: On the bright side, Leliana neatly subverted this trope by being a bisexual woman with an implied preference (or at least a significant history) with women.
Is Cullen a virgin in DA:I? Who said that?
Maybe not literally, but judging from his previous interactions with women (mage warden, prostitutes in BR etc)... Character doesn't have to be a virgin to fit the trope. I doubt that he suddenly improved in that department, given that he's been busy with restoring Kirkwall and all.
Morrigan and Anders also both had the added bonus of having ulterior motives for being with you.
I've seen some chalk this up as being positives for the romances. Especially with Anders. In that it added a particularly unique sense of drama. Many also seem to consider Anders and Morrigan to be "main/more important" romances because of this.
Speaking with my bias, I also like this because I'm a giant monster and enjoy the idea that things don't play out perfectly and it isn't necessarily because of the player being Machiavellian. Though admittedly, my reasons for engaging in romance content is decidedly less "because I want my character to be in a positive, romantic relationship with someone." So someone who DOES want that, then it's kind of a pisser and some will feel that the romances they received are less than fair and whatnot.
He is damaged. It just sounds like the trope is worthy of being expanded beyond simply rogues. Is it safe to say you feel damaged bisexual comes up to much?
Slight tangent: I think part of the challenges with DA2's system of all the companions being bisexual creates some extra challenges, since by that very nature any of the romanceable options being damaged may serve as a reinforcement of the trope.
Oh, yes. I'm sorry; I think I need more coffee. I thought they were referring to the damaged/deranged bisexual trope in general. So yeah, I think Anders broadens the class definition to more than just rogues. 
Why is it when it comes to male love interests, its always peppered with angsty brooding men or pretty handsome awkward men or huge buff muscular men ? Where is the love for the intelligent, intellectual man ?
Agreed, although the bolded does not actually happen that much. The only ones I can think so far are Jacob (who cheated on you), James (if you count him, which I wouldn't) and Iron Bull.
As of right now, the only thing I can think of has been said before, that the straight male LIs are the outwardly heroic ... well, I don't wanna say "straight-laced", but...
Anyway, yeah, it just seems to have this link between heterosexual = respectability.
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