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[JadePrince]

Which reminds me! I felt like there was a pattern of many of the bi/gay characters being easily missable, or not required to recruit, or easily killed.

 

1)Leliana is easy to miss if you don't enter the tavern.

2)Zevran is easy to kill instead of recruit if you don't know he's a potential companion. The game almost encourages you to kill him when you have certain other companions with you.

3)Fenris was easily missable if you didn't read a letter in your house (I just talked to a gay guy at GaymerX who missed Fenris's recruitment quest, much to his consternation)

4)Isabella is missable (not sure on the details here, but I'ver heard lots of folks here say that she is)

 

Merrill and Anders don't fit the pattern, but 4 out of 6 is still a pretty big number, I think.

[Ryzaki]

 

4)Isabella is missable (not sure on the details here, but I'ver heard lots of folks here say that she is)

 

Merrill and Anders don't fit the pattern, but 4 out of 6 is still a pretty big number, I think.

 

She is. If you don't go to the hanged man after picking up Anders I think? You'll never see her.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

no idea about archetypes/tropes but the templates exist. i broke 'tragic past' down to few more specific examples (DA only)

 

* i had a hard life and it made me respond to almost every serious conversation with humour. also i like sex and talking about it. a lot - Isabella, Zevran

 

* i'm not telling you the truth about myself. i cannot imagine what would happen if you knew, oh Maker... - Anders, Alistair, Zevran, Leliana

 

* i may be playing with fire but i know what i'm doing. oh no, i've (almost) killed people. hug me! - Merill, Anders

 

* something unpleasant has happened to me. i gained new perspective on the world and i know exactly how to fix it - Fenris, Anders

 

and a bonus:

* i've had a pretty normal life (given the circumstances) so in the end expect me to stab you in the back - Anders, Morrigan (US version), Isabella, Alistair (nonhuman/mage romance)

[jncicesp]

(I don't trust me to have fully thought thoughts right now but...)

"queer female rogue" and whatnot. 

I think that bothers me because rogues are written to try be likable whether you romance them or even friendship them or not...or something about being plainly boring or overcompensating?  but that's in a few characters(and orientations.)... maybe because of sense of normality but lack of full purpose...also in anders and alistair i think

 

another thing.. Lack of natural desire from a character but that doesn't bother me really but you just see it a lot, someone whos had a sad life but they don't get that they have Or are just more on the sympathetic side and has a "aww you don't know what you want, but it's me" feel.

 

characters are way to into sex and that being the driving point of them falling for you, but thinking thats an over used thing might just be me being asexual...

I can't type me thinking to well in a message

 

subjectively core characters being straight, romances pushed on you(or you to them) not "ninjamance" or whatever, nubile personalities on all sides...naming things

[Maria Caliban]

She is. If you don't go to the hanged man after picking up Anders I think? You'll never see her.

I went to the Hanged Man at the wrong time of day. I got to the Deep Roads before I realized that I must have done something wrong and reloaded.

I have one complete playthrough of DA 2 and the only reason I managed to get Isabela is I'd spent months hanging around the forums and was able to pick up that I'd passed the point she should have appeared by. Then I had to hop on the wiki (which didn't help) and then the forums where Sheryl told me how to get her.

Here is hoping Sera isn't the same. Thankfully, Josephine is a mandatory recruitment.

[Allan Schumacher]

It seems at least one of your romantic interest has to be involved in some Thedas changing/shattering stuff.  Morrigan and the Old God baby. Anders and mage/templar war. Allistair and if he's going to take the throne.  Merril's cute yet effectively soul crushing questline to restore a mirror that spread the Blight to the dalish warden and Temril in Origins, and had the potential to release a demon from within it that would ultimately reek blood terror and insurmountable death until finally put down.  I liked Merril for some reason.

 

Is this more of a general companion trope?  You don't necessarily need to romance them to do this, and would argue that we likely shouldn't ever make doing the romance a core aspect of this, but rather a supplementary one.

[siphernin]

If you're LI is a rogue, they most but charming, flirtatious, dark at times, and if the opportunity arises, hunted by other killers (Crows, Orelisians, or Qunari).

[Allan Schumacher]

If you're LI is a rogue, they most but charming, flirtatious, dark at times, and if the opportunity arises, hunted by other killers (Crows, Orelisians, or Qunari).

 

LI trope, or companion trope?  Does this happen a lot to romanceable rogues, or rogues in general?

[siphernin]

Is this more of a general companion trope?  You don't necessarily need to romance them to do this, and would argue that we likely shouldn't ever make doing the romance a core aspect of this, but rather a supplementary one.

Hmm, you may have a point here.  

[Vapaa]

 

Leliana, Zevran, Fenris, Anders, Merrill, Isabela, Morrigan...I wouldn't call their emotional connections to the PC as healthy. Not really.

 

I didn't get this from Leliana and Merril, Leliana's abuse is unrelated to her bisexuality and the only proeminent drama of her character arc was that Marjolaine was actively threatening her, because otherwise, she moved on from her past.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Is this a more general trope?  Does it apply to women as well?  Liara probably works on some level, but I can't think of much for particularly very smart people.

 

 

Also, do you mean more "intelligent" as though "an academic" or something similar?  Like, I have a feeling if Cullen ended up being a rather cunning military strategist after all, that wouldn't satisfy this for you?

 

Intelligent as in an academic and a scientist.   I really like men and women who dedicate their life and time towards understanding of the world, the universe and the reality. That type of intelligent really gets me. 

 

However, yes, these types of intelligent people, both men and women, are not portrayed well in games and in media. 

 

I suppose in Dragon Age universe these types of people are usually mages like Solas or scholars like Genitivi. 

 

If Cullen ended up as a cunning military strategist, I would be impressed by him and would respect him but I would probably not love him. 

[Allan Schumacher]

Hmm, you may have a point here.  

 

Yeah I asked about the other one as well.  I'm mostly wanting to be focused on the romance aspects, just to keep the thread on track.  That's not to say we don't have tropes we use a lot for our companions in general either.  Just for a different thread/discussion.

[Who Knows]

Which reminds me! I felt like there was a pattern of many of the bi/gay characters being easily missable, or not required to recruit, or easily killed.

 

1)Leliana is easy to miss if you don't enter the tavern.

2)Zevran is easy to kill instead of recruit if you don't know he's a potential companion. The game almost encourages you to kill him when you have certain other companions with you.

3)Fenris was easily missable if you didn't read a letter in your house (I just talked to a gay guy at GaymerX who missed Fenris's recruitment quest, much to his consternation)

4)Isabella is missable (not sure on the details here, but I'ver heard lots of folks here say that she is)

 

Merrill and Anders don't fit the pattern, but 4 out of 6 is still a pretty big number, I think.

You miss Isabela by just not doing her Act 1 recruitment quest. If you don't have enough friendship/rivalry in Act 2, she disappears.

Also:

Steve can die in ME3 if you don't do all of his sidequests.

You can kill Juhani upon meeting her.

 

I would like to add upon what you said:

1. The first character you recruit is usually straight (in the game where they are recruited first) or their orientation is unknown.

2. Straight characters are more likely than LGB characters to be plot important, partly because the bisexual/gay characters are easily killable or easy missable.

[Darth Krytie]

I didn't get this from Leliana and Merril, Leliana's abuse is unrelated to her bisexuality and the only proeminent drama of her character arc was that Marjolaine was actively threatening her, because otherwise, she moved on from her past.

 

Fair on Leliana. I still am iffy on Merrill, though. Especially if you go through a rivaled romance.

[Allan Schumacher]

Intelligent as in an academic and a scientist.   I really like men and women who dedicate their life and time towards understanding of the world, the universe and the reality. That type of intelligent really gets me. 

 

I suppose in Dragon Age universe these types of people are usually mages like Solas or scholars like Genitivi. 

 

If Cullen ended up as a cunning military strategist, I would be impressed by him and would respect him but I would probably not love him. 

 

Can you think of other examples, even of women?  So far I have Leliana.  Just trying to discern if our pattern is academic men, or academics in general.  I'd have to look into Dorian, as mages are typically regarded as scholarly based on fantasy conventions.  He might be able to help with that for gay men.

[siphernin]

LI trope, or companion trope?  Does this happen a lot to romanceable rogues, or rogues in general?

In the case of Lelianna, Zevran, and Isabela, it kind of sticks.  The only other arguable rogues (which weren't LIs) would have been Nathaniel (broodish, not flirty or really charming), Sigrun (see was Legion of the Dead, kind of self explanatory), and Varrec (who while charming, isn't all that flirtatious.  And usually doesn't have a larger organization out to kill him, save for a part of the Carta).

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Intelligent as in an academic and a scientist.   I really like men and women who dedicate their life and time towards understanding of the world, the universe and the reality. That type of intelligent really gets me. 

 

I suppose in Dragon Age universe these types of people are usually mages like Solas or scholars like Genitivi. 

 

If Cullen ended up as a cunning military strategist, I would be impressed by him and would respect him but I would probably not love him. 

I would really like to see this also. It's the main reason I've been rooting for Solas as an LI since we saw his character profile. 

[RynJ]

I would really like to see this also. It's the main reason I've been rooting for Solas as an LI since we saw his character profile. 

 

Yep! We've discussed this in his thread too. It'd be nice to have the genius, introverted type not be crossed off the LI list. 

[Who Knows]

Can you think of other examples, even of women?  So far I have Leliana.  Just trying to discern if our pattern is academic men, or academics in general.  I'd have to look into Dorian, as mages are typically regarded as scholarly based on fantasy conventions.  He might be able to help with that for gay men.

I would say these are the scholarly types who are female love interests: Liara, Tali, Traynor, Miranda, Merrill, Mako, Elara. I can't think of any equivalent love interests that are male.

EDIT: Actually, I can think of one: Doc. Though he's not quite in the same way as the female love interests I listed.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Can you think of other examples, even of women?  So far I have Leliana.  Just trying to discern if our pattern is academic men, or academics in general.  I'd have to look into Dorian, as mages are typically regarded as scholarly based on fantasy conventions.  He might be able to help with that for gay men.

I think what they're basically saying is that they want a brainy type. You might even use the word "nerdy". Like people expect Solas to be (whether he is, it's just the impression a lot of us have gotten) or even sort of like Mordin, to some extent. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Yep! We've discussed this in his thread too. It'd be nice to have the genius, introverted type not be crossed off the LI list. 

Noooooooooo, why must I run out of likes now! lol 

[Ryzaki]

I would say these are the scholarly types who are female love interests: Liara, Tali, Traynor, Miranda, Merrill, Mako, Elara. I can't think of any equivalent love interests that are male.

EDIT: Actually, I can think of one: Doc. Though he's not quite in the same way as the female love interests I listed.

 

Would Quinn count?

 

*ponders*

[DrBlingzle]

I've always felt there's been a trope where bisexuals are very open to sex and take it (along with many other things) very casually I.E Zevran, Isabela, Iron Bull. Bioware actually hasn't done to badly to not reinforcing ths trope as we have Fenris, Merill, Liara and Kaiden among others who don't fit this stereotype.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Can you think of other examples, even of women?  So far I have Leliana.  Just trying to discern if our pattern is academic men, or academics in general.  I'd have to look into Dorian, as mages are typically regarded as scholarly based on fantasy conventions.  He might be able to help with that for gay men.

 

Other female examples ? There are plenty. Liara with her work on Prothean Archeology, Traynor with her strategic and chess capabilities, Miranda with her genetic perfection and training. Even Merill is exceptionally intelligent if not naive. She managed to restore an ancient Elven artifact despite all odds.

 

The problem arises with men. There are next to no intelligent or brainy men as love interests both in ME games and DA games so far. Mordin was unavailable. Solas looks to be unavailable as well.

[Allan Schumacher]

Which reminds me! I felt like there was a pattern of many of the bi/gay characters being easily missable, or not required to recruit, or easily killed.

 

1)Leliana is easy to miss if you don't enter the tavern.

2)Zevran is easy to kill instead of recruit if you don't know he's a potential companion. The game almost encourages you to kill him when you have certain other companions with you.

3)Fenris was easily missable if you didn't read a letter in your house (I just talked to a gay guy at GaymerX who missed Fenris's recruitment quest, much to his consternation)

4)Isabella is missable (not sure on the details here, but I'ver heard lots of folks here say that she is)

 

Merrill and Anders don't fit the pattern, but 4 out of 6 is still a pretty big number, I think.

 

Tangent: Does DA2's reality of having the romanceable characters all be bisexual complicate things in any way?  It seems to me (and my bias/ignorance) that Leliana and Zeveran come across as stronger examples, by virtue that missing them can literally mean that the content of DAO completely lacks non straight content.  DA2 does not.

 

I guess what I'm saying, with limited eloquence, is "is it an establishment and reinforcement of a pattern for bisexual LI to fit a trope, if a game's LI are all bisexual?"  If the answer to this is yes, does this enforce some sort of restriction on the content we should put into a game if it had all bisexual romances?