579 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Leliana-

Some queer gamers: "Leliana is another bisexual who prefers women. That's bad."
Other queer gamers: "Leliana is a bisexual who prefers her own gender. That's good."

A bisexual man who preferred other men would be good.

[Allan Schumacher]

gay/bi elves... there hasn't been a single straight elf. If Solas is a romance im betting hell be on the bi train as well.

 

Also bis preferring women... or at least the ones whose actual characters are meant to be bi(Isabela, Zevran and Leliana).

 

Not really sure any of this counts as bad, just reoccurring..

 

To be fair, until DAI the elves were only bisexual (and I think there were only two).  Is this a trope at this point?  It may be coming from cultural references that I am unaware of.  Can you elaborate?

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I like the gay/bi elves, because I want to romance them. I think it's just that there's only one or two as a companion each time and they're generally pretty appealing to a large audience. I can see why it's repetitive to some, but at the same time I like romancing elves enough that it doesn't bother me and I don't want to romance Qunari or dwarves, so that just leaves humans. Maybe if the elves weren't the only race that wasn't hyper-masculinized when it came to males. It's already so rare to see a male in game that's not super jacked.    

[NoForgiveness]

To be fair, until DAI the elves were only bisexual (and I think there were only two).  Is this a trope at this point?  It may be coming from cultural references that I am unaware of.  Can you elaborate?

 

Well I mean both of the previous elf romances are bi. Then there's Sera. It just seems a little odd there hasn't been a straight elf(at least in the companion romances).  I wouldn't necessarily call it a trope at this point but it should be broken before it becomes one.
 

[Allan Schumacher]

Well I mean both of the previous elf romances are bi. Then there's Sera. It just seems a little odd there hasn't been a straight elf(at least in the companion romances).  I wouldn't necessarily call it a trope at this point but it should be broken before it becomes one.
 

 

Just to make sure I'm not missing any, we've had 2 bisexual and 1 lesbian, right?

[Vapaa]

Just to make sure I'm not missing any, we've had 2 bisexual and 1 lesbian, right?

 

3 bi and 1 lesbian

[NoForgiveness]

Oh forgot fenris...

[Kalamah]

Most of the other issues I had were addressed by others, so I won't rehash those.

 

To add to the points others have raised about (bisexual) tropes: a rather significant percentage of companions do seem to default heterosexual, whether they're unromanced LI's or even not LI's at all. I'm not really interested in hearing about statistics of how us LGBT+ people are a small minority to excuse this, as it's a particularly irritating trope for bisexuals where we're seen as "actually heterosexual" because many of us end up in hetero relationships. I won't get into all the particulars of why this happens except to say that the prevailing assumption about us is that we ultimately "choose" to be either gay or hetero, as if who we date is what decides our "real" sexuality, rather than that we're still bisexual regardless of who we date long-term. That, and there's a significant amount of pressure in society to default to heteronormativity, which affects all marginalized sexualities.

 

So, what I'm basically saying is if bisexual (unromanced) LI's could, for once, show interest in or a preference for a same-sex companion or NPC that would be great. It'd also be nice if we had another Aveline/Donnic thing except it's a same-sex couple needing that extra nudge. I mean, Thedas is a fantasy world, therefore having sexuality default to hetero and replicate real-world social dynamics regarding heteronormativity was a choice the writers made, and whether or not it was a conscious one isn't really the point. I do like that there have been NPC LGBT+ romances mentioned, but it's still rather overwhelmingly heterosexual and I honestly get a bit twitchy over the excuses for why it's like that, considering bisexuals exist and our sexuality doesn't lose any significance when we're in a relationship.

[OrayMoor]

Well, in my opinion there are a few that I can see:

 

The averge nice guy. He is nice, he has averge looks and averge abilitys. The only thing they have "exeptional" in them is their back stories that usually involve a dead woman. Carth, Alister, Jacob, Sky, Kaiden and maybe Cullen might fall into this category. I think I dislike those the most because they apear in almost evry Bioware game.

 

The man who sleeps with alot of woman. I have such disrespect for those guys... The fact that man are idealized by how many woman they can "score" discust me on so many levels. The guys who are worth idealizing are those who are able to keep a relationship for a long time. I think that zevran and the Iron Bull might fall into that category. For some reason they are always bi. I think it gives the bi people a bad name...

 

The winny guy. The guy that can't stop bitching about his past/justic etc... In my opinion one of the only difrence between Anders and Fenris is that one hates mages and the other templars.

 

I'm also pretty tired of the guys who tell me that they will heart me if I romance them. 

I want a guy who wants my character as much as she wants him.

I would also want to be able to compliment my romance option, and have him compliment my character.

I geuss I want a guy who is better or at least equal to my character...

 

If I think of anything else I'll let you know : )

[Basement Cat]

As someone already pointed out, the noble 'knight in shining armor' characters are straight: Alistair, Sebastian, Cullen and Cassandra. I just want to point out that in Cassandra's case it's not a bad thing.

 

Think about it: the woman has many stereotypical male traits : stoic demeanor, skill in battle, hides her emotions, short hair, etc. It would have been far worse if she had been gay in my opinion. It would have been like 'well, she's basically a guy, so she can't be straight'.

 

The complaint is still valid for the guys though. 

[Maria Caliban]

It's only worse if you think a queer woman being masculine is bad.

The previous f/f characters - Silk Fox, Leliana, Isabela, Merrill, Liara, Kelly, Samara - all feel conventionally feminine to me. The only other women who have as many stereotypical male traits - Aveline and Ashley - are straight.

[Who Knows]

There isn't a long history in the real world of gay men and women killing straight people, so...

 

Edit: If there's a pattern of all the women LIs being easily killable, I'd have a problem with that too. So far, Dragon Age is doing pretty good at that (since you can't kill Merrill, Morrigan or Isabela in the base games).

You can kill Merrill. Side with the Templars when you don't have enough friendship or rivalry.

[Basement Cat]

It's only worse if you think a queer woman being masculine is bad.

The previous f/f characters - Silk Fox, Leliana, Isabela, Merrill, Liara, Kelly, Samara - all feel conventionally feminine to me. The only other women who have as many stereotypical male traits - Aveline and Ashley - are straight.

I don't think it's bad, but it is a stereotype about lesbians. The 'Butch lesbian' and all that. Interesting point about Aveline. Is Ashley from the novels?

 

Come to think of it, they do use a lot of 'femme' types, don't they?. Mmmh... 

[Kalamah]

It's only worse if you think a queer woman being masculine is bad.

The previous f/f characters - Silk Fox, Leliana, Isabela, Merrill, Liara, Kelly, Samara - all feel conventionally feminine to me. The only other women who have as many stereotypical male traits - Aveline and Ashley - are straight.

Chiming in here to agree. While I would very much not mind if we had a butch lesbian character or a flamboyant gay guy, I do like the variance we've gotten thus far, even if there are some irritating tropes still present within our LI choices.

 

I'd have an issue if all the LGBT+ characters were stereotypical in some way, not because stereotypical is bad but because it's annoying as hell and ties into the "needs a reason to be non-hetero" trope. I for one like when my gaydar has high accuracy, but having stereotypical traits isn't the only thing that pings it.

 

That said, I was unsurprised when Dorian was announced as gay because he pinged my gaydar right off. With Sera, I suspected but wasn't sure whether she'd be bi or lesbian, though that's more of the DA elf trope at work there (not that I mind said trope at all, for the record). But then I'm in the "usually romances the elves" camp with LI's so I like when they're bi. 

[robertthebard]

I guess I'm a little confused, so I'm going to try to clear that up first: It's my understanding that the companions in DA 2 were playersexual, not bi. So for MHawke, Fenris and Anders were gay, but for FHawke, they were hetero, except that maybe Anders was bi, based entirely on the Karl situation. It's not like if you're MHawke, romancing Isabela, Fenris would wind up having a fling with Anders. That being said, doesn't it make it really hard to "trope" the romances in that particular game, other than the "I'm broken, and only you can fix me" trope?

Which brings me to the "I'm broken and only you can fix me" trope. Every LI in all the Dragon Age games to date have "suffered" from this. I understand that it adds "flavor" to the romance, but really, after a while, it just adds tedium. If I want to have a romance, I have to be able to psychoanalyze their problems, resolve them, or tell them to suck it up, in order for the romance to continue.

[Kalamah]

Eh, honestly, the "playersexual" thing rubs me wrong, especially given the fact Fenris and Isabela hook up on their own, and Carver flirts with Merrill. To me, that says bisexual far more than playersexual. Plus, Sebastian's heterosexual regardless, and "playersexual" only ever comes up with bisexual LI's. 

[Who Knows]

Carver flirts with Merrill.

Does Merrill flirt back? It doesn't have to be requited. Merrill is bisexual regardless.

[Kalamah]

Does Merrill flirt back? It doesn't have to be requited. Merrill is bisexual regardless.

I honestly can't remember offhand, as I've never taken Carver along on the DLC and I've only watched a couple clips of it. True enough point though. *shrugs* I was just trying to think of examples of hookups other than Fenris/Isabela and remembered that there was flirting between Carver and Merrill.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I honestly can't remember offhand, as I've never taken Carver along on the DLC and I've only watched a couple clips of it. True enough point though. *shrugs* I was just trying to think of examples of hookups other than Fenris/Isabela and remembered that there was flirting between Carver and Merrill.

Im pretty sure Merrill never realises that Carver likes her, i still don't like the bisexual characters always defaulting to straight relationships though, especially bi females since it just reinforces the stereotype that women like myself will be with other women occasionally but our serious relationships will always be straight in the end

[daveliam]

My take on the sexuality of the DA 2 characters is that they were intentionally left ambiguous, with the obvious exception of Isabela and, arguably, Anders.  I tend to take Fenris' hook up with Isabela, combined with his being open to both male and female romances to be an indication that he is bisexual and not playersexual.  That just leaves Merrill who doesn't give much indication either way (outside of appreciating the physique of the qunari, which isn't super compelling).  I just have a hard time thinking that in a series with 9 romances (through DA 2), 7 of them have pre-determined sexualities and 2 of them are "playersexual".  That is an odd decision to make, I would think.  So I tend to think of them as all bisexual, but I'm not sure if it's ever been officially recognized either way by WoG.

 

I also just wanted to pipe in on the "white knight/prince" trope that was discussed earlier in the thread.  It drives me nuts that Alistair, Sebastian, and (now) Cullen are all straight.  I have always had a "thing" for the traditional "good guy" knight in shining armor character.  (I blame Nicholas Clay as Lancelot in Excalibur, which I loved as a kid....)  I would really like to see this character type be available for male players at some point.  I seriously do not know of a single fantasy game or movie in which this character type is gay and I think that this is a real shame.  (On a slightly off-topic, but related, note, I recently became aware of a children's book that apparently stirred up some controversy.  In it, a prince and knight set off to rescue a princess, but on the way, fall in love with each other!  Man, if I had access to a story like that as a little gay kid, my entire self-image might have been completely different!)

[Joy Sauce]

It seems to me that you guys at Bioware tend to avoid making women with butch traits lesbians maybe to avoid stereotypes, but of course I cant speak for you. The only women with mannerisms and appearances I might describe as butch have all been straight only (Jack, Ashley now Cass), while all the bi and lesbian options have been way too femme for my tastes (thus I haven't romanced any of them with a woman). Liara I find to be the most egregious example, basically saying she would be the woman in the relationship, while femshep can be described as quite butch. Just once, I would like to be the femme one in the relationship.

[Wulfram]

I feel like the female LIs seem to fall into a virgin/****** dichotomy.  Either they're blushing virgins, or they're characterised as very sexually active and/or as using their sexuality to get ahead.

 

Fortunately this is usually without the judgement that is implied in the latter term, except in that the more "paragon" LIs tend to be of the blushing virgin type, but it's still a false dichotomy that I think is unfortunate.

 

(Ashley is an exception.  And Samantha)

[daveliam]

My take on the sexuality of the DA 2 characters is that they were intentionally left ambiguous, with the obvious exception of Isabela and, arguably, Anders.  I tend to take Fenris' hook up with Isabela, combined with his being open to both male and female romances to be an indication that he is bisexual and not playersexual.  That just leaves Merrill who doesn't give much indication either way (outside of appreciating the physique of the qunari, which isn't super compelling).  I just have a hard time thinking that in a series with 9 romances (through DA 2), 7 of them have pre-determined sexualities and 2 of them are "playersexual".  That is an odd decision to make, I would think.  So I tend to think of them as all bisexual, but I'm not sure if it's ever been officially recognized either way by WoG.

 

Well look at that, ask and ye shall receive.

 

It looks like Gaider just confirmed in his interview with Lady Insanity that Merrill is, indeed, bisexual canonically.  So I think that this pretty much refutes the playersexual notion altogether.  Four bisexual and 1 straight LI's.  Glad we can finally put that to bed and start focusing on picking apart the sexual proclivities of the new batch of romances.....

[Kalamah]

Thinking on the "how to fix these tropes" aspect of the purpose of this thread, I wonder if perhaps the writers could, instead of determining the character's sexuality early on, wait until they have at least the core traits and general backstory written before picking a sexuality out of a hat or something. Given that the stereotypes aren't an egregious issue with the LGBT+ LI's, and the main concern being the rather high tendency for their storylines to be tragic in some way, this could perhaps help a bit to avoid unconscious writer tendencies with specifically LGBT+ LI's.

 

I'm a writer myself, and while the vast majority of my characters are some flavor of queer, their exact preferences are just something of a footnote overall rather than something that has a huge impact on their perspective and life... with a few exceptions, of course. This is less because my own queerness doesn't impact my life (it very much does), and more because of all the ways my queerness has virtually nothing to do with my everyday life. Overall, I do think Bioware does a decent job of this particular aspect of writing LGBT+ characters, but it does come up in the LI's with tragic backstories and the PC's baggage fixer role.

 

Granted, in DA2 all the LI's had baggage, including Sebastian who was the token heterosexual, but considering the overlap with the "tragic gay" trope, it's something to have less of. Arguably, Sebastian's baggage was barely even an issue compared to the "so many issues he has a subscription" Anders drops on Hawke, Fenris's past haunting him and his old master hunting him, Merrill's single-minded obsession with restoring the Eluvian without accounting for the impact it has on her clan, and Isabela's actions biting her in the *** at inopportune moments that lead to rather serious consequences for Kirkwall, let alone herself. And they were all bisexual too, whereas Sebastian's main thing was indecision about what to do with his life now, and angst about his family's murders, plus the fact that Hawke's role is less therapist and more friend/antagonist pushing or encouraging him to make a choice either way.

 

To me, the difference is fairly notable in that Sebastian's far less of an angst anvil than the others, and he seems to hold together relatively well without Hawke, whereas the others are far more needy. While this could be at least partly explained by the time constraints of DA2's release, it still seems like their overall stories and how they're tied into the plot were shaped around at least some subtle bias.