AH. The guys at the VERY beginning of the Orzammar map, not the Deep Roads. Understood.
Although I don't remember having any particular difficulty with them. Then again, I'm not sure I ever went to Orzammar first.
DA:O is generally easy with a well-built party, but yes, I never found that encounter challenging. It's just a bunch of melee warriors and one mage. Mana Clash + Fireball alone can mop up the encounter.
DA:O is generally easy with a well-built party, but yes, I never found that encounter challenging. It's just a bunch of melee warriors and one mage. Mana Clash + Fireball alone can mop up the encounter.
Who has Mana Clash at level 8? If you go straight to Orzammar after Lothering, I can see that fight being pretty difficult.
AH. The guys at the VERY beginning of the Orzammar map, not the Deep Roads. Understood.
Although I don't remember having any particular difficulty with them. Then again, I'm not sure I ever went to Orzammar first.
The level floor for the zone was 10 (while the other areas would scale down at least as far as 7 to accommodate low-level parties), so they certainly didn't want you going there first, but I wouldn't therefore call it "end game" content. Just not "early game" content.
If you've completed any one of the Tower, Sacred Ashes, or the Brecilian Forest already, Orzammar should be level-appropriate.
I'm always doing Orzammar second and there are only 2 spots where I have problems. First is a narrow corridor after passing the bridge with the Legion, where there are 2 elites, one being a hurlock alpha orange level, and the other being a caster that hits with crushing prison the first target he sees. The other is a genlock orange archer elite. It can kill party members easily and you have to move around a ledge to reach him. They are the two spots where I actually hoped that I brought a true tank with me. Even when I bring warriors they are dps spec.
Broodmother is easy, so is Caridin/Branca
Mana Clash + Fireball alone can mop up the encounter.
Try going crushing prison early instead of mana clash. It's even more funny and you get forcefield in the meantime as well 
It literally oneshots mages, and you can use it on other elites as well.
I run DAO with at least 2 mages. I get double haste (they stack, both attackspeed and movement speed), and 2 crushing prisons. Let's say that these 2 spells weren't Bioware's finest examples of balance.
Who has Mana Clash at level 8? If you go straight to Orzammar after Lothering, I can see that fight being pretty difficult.
If you use a respec mod. then you have Morrigan with Mana Clash and the Warden with Fireball. You could also beeline it for Mana Clash. You can have 33 magic points if you dump all of your stats in magic, which is what a power-gaming build for mages does anyway.
If you use a respec mod. then you have Morrigan with Mana Clash and the Warden with Fireball. You could also beeline it for Mana Clash. You can have 33 magic points if you dump all of your stats in magic, which is what a power-gaming build for mages does anyway.
Well, when playing the game prerelease we didn't use a respec mod. It's also possible that you guys are stronger players than others too.
Try going crushing prison early instead of mana clash. It's even more funny and you get forcefield in the meantime as well
It literally oneshots mages, and you can use it on other elites as well.
I run DAO with at least 2 mages. I get double haste (they stack, both attackspeed and movement speed), and 2 crushing prisons. Let's say that these 2 spells weren't Bioware's finest examples of balance.
I prefer Mana Clash because it cleans up Revenants faster because of the absurdly broken damage. I mop up with AOE fireball combos anyway, so paralysis type spells that are 1-targets end up not meshing well with my style. Plus, forcefield is comically broken.
Well, when playing the game prerelease we didn't use a respec mod. It's also possible that you guys are stronger players than others too.
I was going to add that it's also possible to just build your Warden such that he/she has Mana Clash at that level. You have 8 points to spend, so you can grab fireball and Mana Clash by that level.
At any rate, I didn't mean to imply that most gamers should fit it easy - I just think it is a very learnable system.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
The level range for Deep Roads starts at a higher level. A gating encounter was put right at the beginning of the Orzammar quest because death rates were quite higher during that plot than elsewhere, and the gating encounter served one of two purposes:
People would get frustrated early and turn around, coming back later.
People would be able to manage the first combat, and as such likely be able to manage the rest of the content (whether because they are patient with save loads, or just particularly strong players).
Easier to do this than to do another full balancing pass over such a large area.
Ah, I see.
It sounds like you're saying DA:O did not have level scaling (something I've never been sure of). or perhaps the scale was simply adjusted for the Deep Roads?
Anyway, thanks for the information.
I run DAO with at least 2 mages. I get double haste (they stack, both attackspeed and movement speed), and 2 crushing prisons. Let's say that these 2 spells weren't Bioware's finest examples of balance.
The problem with the speed boosts is that there's a bug. I used to use haste along with momentum, but my rogue got knocked back to a SLOWER speed than either because there's a bug in there somewhere that can't take...I feel like it was 300% speed increase.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
I'd argue the Circle Tower is just as long, if not possibly longer, than the Deep Roads and contains two Big Bosses, numerous mini bosses and a high volume of combat. Yet it is the most often suggested area to visit first.
The Brecilian Forest contains over six maps, the same amount as The Deep Roads. And has numerous encounters, including a fight with a dragon (the only non-High dragon fight you can encounter, when the game only lets you fight a High Dragon in Haven or confronting Flemeth, both opportunities that are follow ups visitng one of the Primary Quest hubs, all but guaranteeing you are at least at mid-game) as well as a stiff end-game fight with either The Lady of the Forest or Zathrian.
And Redcliffe is often criticized because of its high skill checks and difficult combat as being a terrible place for a character like Alistair to suggest the player visit first, since it is often a challenge they are not able to address with a high rate of success.
And that's one thing that I like about DA:O - sufficient challenge at every step of the way. I'd like it even more if the entire game was given the Redcliffe treatment, when the player encountered many things in every instance they might not be strong or skilled enough to overcome. Which it seems DA:I is doing, so that's very cool.
Hmm. I can kind of see your point with the Circle Tower, if only, ONLY because of the Fade sequence. Not that I particularly mind it, but in my mind it's the difference between a relatively short quest to an uncomfortably long one.
And maybe I've just gotten too good, but I've never really had much trouble in the Circle (outside of the Sloth demon casting "blizzard" and my [Aggressive] characters not moving out of AOE). And in my opinion, the only difficult fight in the Brecillian Forest is/can be Zathrian. That dragon isn't very hard at all. Again, maybe I'm too good by now, though I don't power-build or anything.
I don't think Brecillian Forest qualifies as a dungeon because the areas are rather small, and at any one time you're rather close to the exit to the Dalish camp. Similar for Redcliffe--it's a two parter, you don't have to push through all at once.
I would say Redcliffe is indeed one of the more difficult--one reason being the obligatory Revenant fight, another being the fights where you have to protect all the NPCs like Murdock who're made of wet tissue paper (that fight, that night fight, is worth having two mages, both with heal, to keep those wimps around).
I dunno, The Deep Roads always just felt more like a slog to me. Buncha caves, going a linear direction the entire time, the boss fights...maybe I don't like Darkspawn. Maybe that's it. Probably the caves, actually.
Ah, I see.
It sounds like you're saying DA:O did not have level scaling (something I've never been sure of). or perhaps the scale was simply adjusted for the Deep Roads?
Anyway, thanks for the information.
It did, but each area had a level floor and a level ceiling. The Frostback Mountains area outside Orzammar had a floor of level 10 (iirc), so it would never scale below that.
Also, the actual level of the area (within the range) was set the first time you visited it, so you could conceivably rush around the game visiting areas but not completing them, and then come back later when you've levelled up but they haven't.
If you use a respec mod. then you have Morrigan with Mana Clash and the Warden with Fireball. You could also beeline it for Mana Clash. You can have 33 magic points if you dump all of your stats in magic, which is what a power-gaming build for mages does anyway.
That's how I got Paralysis Explosion for the Ogre at the top of the Tower of Ishal, as well.
But I usually only dumped all my points into Magic until I got it to double my Willpower, and then I maintained that 2:1 ratio for he rest of the game.
It did, but each area had a level floor and a level ceiling. The Frostback Mountains area outside Orzammar had a floor of level 10 (iirc), so it would never scale below that.
Also, the actual level of the area (within the range) was set the first time you visited it, so you could conceivably rush around the game visiting areas but not completing them, and then come back later when you've levelled up but they haven't.
That ended up hurting you in terms of fun, because you actually reduced your overall XP cut.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
It did, but each area had a level floor and a level ceiling. The Frostback Mountains area outside Orzammar had a floor of level 10 (iirc), so it would never scale below that.
Also, the actual level of the area (within the range) was set the first time you visited it, so you could conceivably rush around the game visiting areas but not completing them, and then come back later when you've levelled up but they haven't.
I see. Thanks.
That ended up hurting you in terms of fun, because you actually reduced your overall XP cut.
Which is why I didn't do it. But if you wanted easier fights, and given scaling there's an argument to be made that you don't really need to get more powerful beyond a certain point (by the end of the game I know I'm taking talents I won't use, for example).
The scaling doesn't discourage levelling to anything like the same degree that Oblivion did, but there isn't much incentive to level past level 20.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Which is why I didn't do it. But if you wanted easier fights, and given scaling there's an argument to be made that you don't really need to get more powerful beyond a certain point (by the end of the game I know I'm taking talents I won't use, for example).
The scaling doesn't discourage levelling to anything like the same degree that Oblivion did, but there isn't much incentive to level past level 20.
Sure there is: power. Str, Dex, Con, and all that stuff.
Until my rogue dodges EVERY normal attack, I haven't leveled up enough.
I prefer Mana Clash because it cleans up Revenants faster because of the absurdly broken damage. I mop up with AOE fireball combos anyway, so paralysis type spells that are 1-targets end up not meshing well with my style. Plus, forcefield is comically broken.
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How do you get mana clash to work on revenants? I usually just try to root them down and hack away while I try to keep Wynne and Zev out of trouble. I thought revenants were melee based rather than mana. If you tell me I'm doing it wrong I'm going to have to play through the game again. Again.
What difficulty are you playing? That might make a difference. I've been doing hard/nightmare since I won't be able to cheat this time.
The problem with the speed boosts is that there's a bug. I used to use haste along with momentum, but my rogue got knocked back to a SLOWER speed than either because there's a bug in there somewhere that can't take...I feel like it was 300% speed increase.
Actually the bug is that you can't stack momentum with haste (unless you are a warrior with precise striking), but you can stack 2 hastes together. And that's the funny part cause a rogue for example doesn't even need talents to function well. Also you can stack two songs of courage. You get some crazy attack speed, movement speed and critical chance of the charts as rogue. With a heavy dex build you don't even need to backstab and you have 100% physical evasion. Cool, isn't it?
Well, when playing the game prerelease we didn't use a respec mod. It's also possible that you guys are stronger players than others too.
There are some spells that are broken. Like mana clash on Ghaxkang. It can oneshot him. Not sure if it's a bug, but I've done it multiple times. It seems odd that one of the hardest enemies in the game would die like that
Also forcefield is easy to abuse. I used it to kill the High Dragon at a very low level by stopping the bite attack. This along with crushing prison are good ideas as tactical spells, but when you start bringing more mages they are just too strong. There are very few fights that have more than 2-3 elites. If you bring 3 prisons, you never have to fight them ^^
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Actually the bug is that you can't stack momentum with haste (unless you are a warrior with precise striking), but you can stack 2 hastes together. And that's the funny part cause a rogue for example doesn't even need talents to function well. Also you can stack two songs of courage. You get some crazy attack speed, movement speed and critical chance of the charts as rogue. With a heavy dex build you don't even need to backstab and you have 100% physical evasion. Cool, isn't it?
I did not know that. I thought it was a certain speed "limit."
Thanks.
It is actually a certain speed limit, which you go over if you stack momentum with haste. That's why I said that you can counter it with precise striking. Cause it lowers your attack speed. 2 hastes don't go over the limit.
Thank you. Nice to have an option for a rogue who isn't the dueling type. I've never really gone into any of the bard skills. I wind up always doing dual-wielding assassins with a 2nd tree that is essentially wasted except for keen defense.
That ended up hurting you in terms of fun, because you actually reduced your overall XP cut.
Only if your measurement of fun was XP acquisition. (Being a bit pedantic though... I'd argue it's less fun for other reasons... such as wandering around not accomplishing anything while you enter every area, but hey someone might find that fun).
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Perhaps you are right, but I can tell you about more exploits. Like for example you can use the shapeshift ability that turns Morrigan into a swarm to displace a party member and get through the locked gate in Arl Eamon's estate in Denerim. Effectively bypassing 80% of the game. You can do that fresh out of Lothering, you only need a full party and the skill.
It's used in any% speedruns. A guy finished the game in 35 minutes ;p
I doubt that you want to keep that one ^^
I know that one. I like that it's there. It would be difficult for a player to trigger that by accident, so no one is likely to have his game ruined by it, and it gives interested players another way to play.Perhaps you are right, but I can tell you about more exploits. Like for example you can use the shapeshift ability that turns Morrigan into a swarm to displace a party member and get through the locked gate in Arl Eamon's estate in Denerim. Effectively bypassing 80% of the game. You can do that fresh out of Lothering, you only need a full party and the skill.
It's used in any% speedruns. A guy finished the game in 35 minutes ;p
I doubt that you want to keep that one ^^
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How do you get mana clash to work on revenants? I usually just try to root them down and hack away while I try to keep Wynne and Zev out of trouble. I thought revenants were melee based rather than mana. If you tell me I'm doing it wrong I'm going to have to play through the game again. Again.
What difficulty are you playing? That might make a difference. I've been doing hard/nightmare since I won't be able to cheat this time.
Some revenants have mana pools. It's not consistent, and I'm not sure it was intended to work that way. They also work against demons. I play on nightmare.
Only if your measurement of fun was XP acquisition. (Being a bit pedantic though... I'd argue it's less fun for other reasons... such as wandering around not accomplishing anything while you enter every area, but hey someone might find that fun).
I should have been clearer. I consider having more abilities fun, rather than just power-gaming. Less XP = less fun only insofar as you end the game with less abilities than you otherwise would have had.
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