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Used manaclash for the first time...


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#1
corey_russell

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Apparently I've used a lot of the elemental magics up to this point (I've completed at least a dozen runs, maybe more of Origins), but never used Manaclash.

 

To unlock the achievement you get for learning all spirit school spells on your PC, I went ahead and did just that. Now wonder I've read so much about Manaclash - against all mages who weren't elite, it killed them outright! I reloaded my game much less - for example, I often have to reload when fighting the Andraste Cultists' boss - but not this time as my opening move (manaclash) removed the enemy mages and thus made the fight much smoother.

 

The Fade was also MUCH smoother this go around - mana clash, crushing prison, walking bomb and force field (on myself) made most fights trivial.

 

All this time I never realized that mana clash was an AREA effect, what a difference. I used to think the dog's overwhelm ability was the best against mages, but not anymore.

 

The Circle was also much easier, with most enemy mages not surviving the mana clash. The 3 spells leading to manaclash are pretty useless though...

 

If I ever make a custom mage, will definitely use manaclash again...

 

I've never really used walking bomb/virulent walking bomb spells before - they did get the job done, but was not impressed. I doubt I will use these ever again.

 

The first line of spells (dispel magic, spell shield, anti-magic aura) did have some use, but extremely rarely. I imagine if I were a solo mage, I might get more use of them, but for the most part they seemed like a waste of time.

 

mind blast, force field, the 3rd spell (weapon buff) and crushing prison on the other hand, saw extensive use - a very worthwhile spell line to max out. My mage would often get a lot of aggro this run, so he spent many a battle hiding in a force field, while the enemies flailed against him uselessly and the other party members got the job done.

 

My run isn't done yet, but nearly (at the Palace surface area now). I usually get bored of mages in BG and Dragon Age, but this run I haven't been - guess the spirit school of spells is interesting.

 

Hope I didn't bore anyone, but thought I would share. 



#2
Ironman Gaming

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Nope, always fun for me to read these since when you take away some spells, you're forced to play a different way or use totally different tactics...Agreed that the Anti-Magic line is mostly pretty weak, but I like Spell Shield since 75% magic resist is a lot and it stacks.  Makes some fights much easier like against Desire Demons

 

Here's Walking Bomb:

 

Here's a thread where someone who wants to only use Entropy spells:

http://forum.bioware...entropy-builds/



#3
corey_russell

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I agree spellshield is useful, but in my run I had Alistair with 100% spell resists, and most mages failed to survive the opening spells of manaclash/crushing prison/walking bomb, so was not relevant for my run - also, if an elite/boss mage focused on me, I would just force field and let my party beat the mage up. My mage never died to enemy mages, just enemy melee/arrows/bolts.

 

My next dragon age run will be entropy as well...thanks for the feedback.



#4
Mike3207

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Mana Clash is only effective against the weaker demons. Against stronger demons like desire demons, it's ineffective.

The Spell Shield line has it's uses, particularly if you run with a party that doesn't have Templar skills.I'd rather bring Shale myself. It's more a line for Arcane Warriors who like to spam the spells then close to melee range. That AW with Spellweaver always seems to have the full line of Dispel Magic.

#5
corey_russell

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That explains it - my favorite class for my warriors (all warriors, even NPCs) is Templar, so I am never without cleanse area...


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#6
luna1124

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ManaClash is a favorite of mine too. Really helps when fighting demons AND hostile mages.



#7
Jaison1986

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The game surely turned twice as easy with mana clash. If you give Wynne vulnerabilty hex while she uses spell might and vessel of the spirit, even elite mages will be instantly killed in one shot. But be warned. Elite mages and spellcaster have a very high chance of resisting it, so it will not aways be an instant win. The enemies affected by it seem to be the following: mages, rage demons, desire demons, abominations, arcane horrors and shades.


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#8
luna1124

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I have always wanted someone to make a mod and give the player a spell like "pull". the one used by revenants.


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#9
Blazomancer

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^Grievous Insult for warriors in Awakening is somewhat similar to the Revenant pulls. May be someone with the knowhow can mod it in for mages in Origins for you.
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#10
Jaison1986

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^Grievous Insult for warriors in Awakening is somewhat similar to the Revenant pulls. May be someone with the knowhow can mod it in for mages in Origins for you.

 

I'm pretty sure I saw a mod once that unlock awakening abilities in Origins. But I'm not a big fan of it. I fell like I'm cheating. 


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#11
luna1124

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I tried Awakening in the OC and couldn't get it to work for me. I want my arcane warriors to have pull or mass-pull spells :D



#12
corey_russell

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The game surely turned twice as easy with mana clash. If you give Wynne vulnerabilty hex while she uses spell might and vessel of the spirit, even elite mages will be instantly killed in one shot. But be warned. Elite mages and spellcaster have a very high chance of resisting it, so it will not aways be an instant win. The enemies affected by it seem to be the following: mages, rage demons, desire demons, abominations, arcane horrors and shades.

Yes, I did in fact notice Manaclash often wasn't effective against elite/boss mages. But in that case, I would do crushing prison (which also often got resisted) and walking bomb the mage, and maybe a arcane bolt. This would almost always make the mage mad. I then force field myself. While the mage uselessly tries to hurt me, my party gets the job done. I didn't know spellshield is 75% magic resist, I will probably try that instead of force-fielding myself, if I ever play a mage like this again.



#13
Elhanan

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I did not use Crushing Prison often with my characters, but did enjoy casting Force Field on victims that were allies.

Mana Clash has become a standard in my spell lists; works wonderfully alongside the Litany for the remainder of the Circle quests once obtained.

#14
Jaison1986

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Other decent strategy against mages, or well, any other enemy for the matter is to throw an fireball or use cone of cold (wich will knock down or freeze the enemy) and then apply death hex on the enemy and have the rest of the party throw everything they have.



#15
Ajadea

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I never had trouble with Mana Clash even against elite mages. I just turn on Spell Wisp and Spell Might, and after that, you can Mana Clash pretty much anything that could possibly be affected by it. Add on Morrigan's Vulnerability and/or Affliction Hexes, and everything just rolls over and dies.

 

I got a good bit of use out of Dispel Magic, actually. Force Field up an ally, pump them full of healing, then drop the Force Field the moment they lose aggro. Toss a Cone of Cold down, Dispel on the tank that got caught in it, and proceed to mop up. Eliminate any number of Crushing Prisons and Curses of Mortality in your way. The rest of that line is pretty weak though.



#16
corey_russell

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Interesting tip about the spell might + mana clash - I never know when to use spell might, or if it's helping me or not...I only know about the spell might storm of century combo...

 

As for dispel magic - as I mentioned I always have templars, and they can clear everything if needed (and used it many times run in fact). I agree with no templars dispel magic certainly can have its use, but again, I rarely used it...on the other hand, the mind blast line of spells all 4 of them were used heavily.

 

A few times I used anti-magic aura on the dog, but I only had to do that because the elite emissaries refused to die to a mana clash...Except for spellshield, I doubt I will use this line of spells again. Thanks for the feedback though.



#17
luna1124

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Spell might and animate dead works well together.


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#18
DarthGizka

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@ corey_russel

I think you're seriously underselling the bomb spells in relation to Mana Clash.

Walking Bomb does the same damage as Curse of Mortality, Stinging Swarm, Blood Control and Nightmare, 200 points at spellpower 100 (against resistance 0 and without +spirit gear), and roughly the same as Crushing Prison.

It is much more mana-efficient than all of these spells, it cools down faster - 20 seconds - and if the bomb detonates then it deals the same damage again as physical damage in 5 m radius, attenuated by distance. The primary effect deals spirit damage, which is fortunate since the fire+spirit amplification combo happens to be the most potent by far and all my mages swear by it.

Walking Bomb is massive ranged AoE damage early, at the cost of only one spellpoint. It is fire-and-forget disposal of ranged mooks, even a whole cluster of them if they are standing close enough or can be made to form a tight cluster with a well-aimed fireball or by turning a corner. It works like Fireball - with smaller AoE but much more potent - if you cast it on a near-dead enemy or a one-shotter. It is massive physical damage against hard enemies with inconvenient elemental resistances, if there is a mook around whom you can blow up in their face. Shattering can often be used to achieve fast and precise remote detonation.

Virtual Walking Bomb does 50% more damage and - as Ironman said - it is handy to have in reserve to keep battle strategies from being derailed by a resisted Walking Bomb. The bombs together are a nuker's bread-and-butter elite and boss killers, at much lower cost than Storm of the Century and Entropic Death and available much earlier.

If you cast another bomb spell on an already ticking bomb then the earlier effect is stopped and the new bomb is effectively doubled. If you cast Crushing Prison on such a double-ticker then its ticks are doubled as well, although the vagaries of overlapping ticks and durations can often cost you one pair of Crushing Prison ticks (i.e. 2 x 4 instead of 2 x 5 against elites, 2 x 3 instead of 2 x 4 against bosses).

In any case the double-bombing makes Crushing Prison more useful as a damage spell against elites and bosses, whereas otherwise it wouldn't be worth the mana except for the immobilising effect against elites. The effect of Crushing Prison on the player is so much more devastating - despite lowish enemy spellpower - because of hidden damage multiplication and extended duration (110%, like for critters).

To give a concrete example, here are the numbers I measured for spellpower 100 and 30% spirit damage amplification against a fully hexed boss (Nightmare difficulty, i.e. 15% hidden extra resistance):

WB: 325 (14 x 23)
VB: 721 (14 x 51)
CP: 342 ( 4 x 86)

WB+VB: 1477 (1 tick of WB plus 2 full VB)

WB+VB+CP: 1991 (dito, plus double-ticked shortened CP)

The damage is even greater against enemies of elite rank or lower, and on lower difficulties. The DPS is on the order of 100 over the duration, which would be respectable even for a warrior or rogue but for a mage it rocks. Especially as you're free to pile Fireballs and stuff on top of that.

Double bombing alone is enough for all nuisance bosses, and with Crushing Prison it's enough even for the likes of Branka. There is a lot of bossiness in and around Orzammar: Piotin, Jarvia, revenant, Ageless dragon, revenant, ogre alpha, fade beast, spider queen, Ancient Darkspawn, Forge Master, Gangue Shade, Broodmother, Branka, Bhelen, and then Piotin again.

Mana Clash is totally useless against most of them but they all go down fast if hexed and double-bombed. Even the Anvil finale is much less stressful with Branka out of the picture 15 to 20 seconds into the fight, and you don't need to prep Oghren for tanking or kiting her either. Just send him off to go sulk in a corner somewhere.

In most cases enemy mages can be crowd-controlled and burned together with their entourage without any special measures whatsoever. In a few cases you have to be careful to CC them before they come into spell-casting range, or let them walk over a Glyph of Neutralisation. But that isn't a big deal, and there are only four or five such occasions in the whole Orzammar campaign. The number of bosses in that expedition is three times as big.

On the whole that makes Mana Clash fairly unattractive in comparison to its extortionate cost of four spell points. During the course of a DA:O campaign it removes exactly one major headache - Gaxkang - and it can be mildly useful in a small handful of occasions, all of which concern bossy blood mages but which can just as well be solved with glyphs, Sleep and general nukage. Mana Clash is loads of fun but unlike the bomb spells it is not even remotely necessary, which makes it a luxury item as far as solo mages are concerned.

Soloing without any bomb spells is bound to be slower and more painful whereas soloing without Mana Clash is not only possible, it's easier and faster than doing without the useful spells that those four points could have bought. Soloing may not be everybody's cup of tea but I brought it up because it's the only case where build decisions actually have cost. A solo mage probably couldn't afford Mana Clash until the late teen levels without serious pain, too late to make much of a difference (although some fun still beckons).

Things are different if there is a team that can pick up the slack, allowing the Warden to specialise in whatever strikes their fancy. In that case Mana Clash is an excellent option since it is fun and insanely effective against mana users; mandatory soloing occurs post-origin only in the Fade, where Mana Clash tends to make a lot (Circle) or all (Connor) of the fighting trivial.

My current toon Ajira had to make do with only one bomb until level sixteen, which was the price she paid for getting the hexes and Sleep much earlier than usual. That made dealing with bosses and fire-proof elites more difficult, more often than Sleep made other things easier. She finally got the second bomb in the Deep Roads, and she's been on a roll ever since.

P.S.: Spell Might is a non-starter except as an enabler for Storm of the Century and to improve Animate Dead. It increases spell damage by 10% but it drains too much mana to leave it on, since that mana can do more damage if it is used to cast spells instead. And if you don't leave it on then its effect on things like SotC, Inferno and Glyph of Repulsion goes away. It works well for casting spells like the hexes, bombs and Crushing Prison, because they probe the caster's spell power at the moment the effect is created on the victim. Theoretically that applies also to Stone Fist, Mind Blast, Fireball, Cone of Cold etc., except that it is usually not practical to turn on Spell Might when these spells are needed in self-defence or to push a boss back into the fire.

For Entropic Death the caster of the cloud needs to be at maximum spellpower and spirit damage amplification at the moment the combo effect hits, i.e. when hex meets cloud. It doesn't matter who casts the death hex.


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#19
corey_russell

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@DarthGizka: Thanks for the in-depth explanation. I never used Walking Bomb/Viralent Walking Bomb in conjunction with hexes (never had any hexes this run), so perhaps that's why it wasn't quite as effective for me. I did use it on bosses and such, that and crushing prison were my only damage spells as spirit only so had to use it extensively...I don't think I said it was a bad spell, only it didn't work for ME. I would rather fireball/cone of cold/blizzard/inferno my opponents.

 

For a solo mage, the walking bombs do sound pretty useful - I was in a party, so those points were a non-factor in my latest run. My own bombs quite often injured my own party, so we had to heal like crazy - all mages had to learn group heal to heal ourselves from our own bombs friendly fire. Shale would often hurt the party with her rock barrages too, but that's another story...



#20
DarthGizka

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Yes, stuff like that can be a nasty surprise sometimes. Just like when you find yourself knocked flat because you forgot to reprogram Wynne and she activated Vessel of the Spirit under her own steam...

 

The bombs can be just as useful when playing with a team but they are most effective in connection with good crowd control and remote shattering abilities. Or Force Field to shield the tank when a boss's health approaches zero.

 

I provided the in-depth info because it could be helpful for making the most of the bombs, and I guess people will like them more once they have seen their true power in action. For a DPS-challenged character like mage, seeing a boss's health bar race towards zero can be very satisfying indeed...



#21
Mike3207

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Saw this post on of the older pages of the forum:


"Hey I just found a nice combo, Flying swarm makes you immune to virulent time bombs."


I haven't tested that myself, but I thought it was a interesting observation to make.I really don't run into a lot of mages that use the walking bombs on me.Not sure if the OP means WB or VWB, or both.

#22
BlazingSpeed

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I have always wanted someone to make a mod and give the player a spell like "pull". the one used by revenants.

 

The old mod that used to be on the nexus "Wildkin" spec does just that, it gives a rogue a lot of the monster abilities although I think that the spec helps out warriors more. I was fortunate enough to grab the Wildkin mod before it evaporated. 

 

As for Mana Clash I used it a couple of times on the PS3 version of Dragon Age but on the PC with mods the enemy Arcane Warriors (who are an armored pain on their own...) can make the game tres difficult by dropping Morrigan and full of Wynne in a single hit. While the game can be lots of fun when the danger is real but in the circle tower with Blood Mages using Blood Wound, Mana Clash, and Templars using Holy Smite well it's hell on Thedas for the party mages.

 

Is there an achievement for your mages being floored so many times.



#23
Magdalena11

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I'm pretty much convinced mana clash is an "I win" button for mages.  If the game doesn't crash, the toughest foe on the field just packed up his marbles and went home.  Morrigan or a DPS PC is better than healer Wynne, but even she can knock heck out of the baddie and make it easier to kill for everyone else.  

 

I've never used Morrigan much but did last time for RP.  Those multiple crushing prisons of hers tear a battlefield into mincemeat.  Watching her on autopilot actually made me change my strategy for Wynne.  I'm trying not to cheat too much, so Wynne's really a supporter and Morrigan a DPSer, but part of support is making the bad guys not able to hurt you, so instead of crushing prison I have Wynne cast paralyze on anyone elite or better.  It's working great when I remember to keep an eye on it and can postpone multiple combatants per encounter.



#24
Elhanan

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It may help to turn off the Frame Buffer Effects in the graphic options. It does not eliminate CTD, but can aid in preventing them.
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#25
Magdalena11

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Turning off frame buffer as we speak.  Honestly, I'm really not sure what graphics mean in terms of gameplay, so I doubt I'll even notice the difference, unless it affects screenshots, of which I am taking a great deal.  Nightmare mode has some awesome combat.  I actually managed to pick a baddie's pocket as it was sailing through the air on the tip of Sten's sword.  Glorious.