231 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Don't you dare besmudge the reputation of Merrill with your reason and logic! Away with thee!

 

I think it's perfectly logical that some of us refuse to blame Merrill for the actions committed by other people.

[Ryzaki]

I was talking about Tevinter.

 

And yeah it's stupid not to help during the Blights , but the Dalish are not the only one refusing to fight , it seems everyone wait until someone else deal with the problem .Well not the wardens.

 

Yeah you can hardly say that's humans fault.

 

Yep I just believe for such a long lived race that prides themselves on being wiser than humans they wouldn't fall into the same stupid pitfalls.

 

And yeah the wardens are sadly the only ones reasonable about this. Probably helps that you can see the archdemon in your sleep when a blight happens. XD

[LobselVith8]

lol

 

I mean I love Merrill but the mirror thing was ugh. Rivalmance ftw :3

 

Different strokes, I suppose. I loathed the rivalmance. Hawke telling Merrill she was wrong to pursue a course of action she thought could help her people out of their decline never felt right to me, and his ignorance about her culture and this technology only compounded the problem I had with it. To each their own, I suppose.

 

Yeah you can hardly say that's humans fault.

 

Yep I just believe for such a long lived race that prides themselves on being wiser than humans they wouldn't fall into the same stupid pitfalls.

 

Considering that Orlais was created through conquest and conversion to Drakon's particular religion, I can see why the elves would be hesitant to trust their neighbor. The historical examples of Nevarra, Kirkwall, and Ferelden can attest to how little trust one should place in Orlais and the Orlesians' inability to restraint their imperialistic ambitions.

 

And yeah the wardens are sadly the only ones reasonable about this. Probably helps that you can see the archdemon in your sleep when a blight happens. XD

 

You're forgetting the dwarves, who (unlike both humans and elves) are the only ones who have consistently taken the threat of the darkspawn seriously.

[Reznore57]

 

You're forgetting the dwarves, who (unlike both humans and elves) are the only ones who have consistently taken the threat of the darkspawn seriously.

 

 

Well yeah there's the dwarves , In DAO they weren't thrilled about fighting on the surface.

Can't blame them , no one cares about their daily trouble with Darkspawn.

 

It's going to be fun in DAI , "help the sky is tearing itself apart! Demons !"..."Yeah well , Inquisitor , I have my own problem , don't have time for this!"

[Steelcan]

I'll call it what the People would call it: a spirit. If you adhere to the view of the People that all spirits are dangerous, then it's a spirit.

 

 

The best thing to do is not to release a spirit from it's prison. It's why some of us don't blame Merrill for what Marethari did.

 

 

The Dalish left because they didn't submit, and they wouldn't acquiesce to the Chantry; the ones who did are currently living under human rule, including in Halamshiral. During the war, we know that some elves died rather than submit, like General Rajmael.

 

 

The Dalish follow an outlawed religion, they have free mages among them, but you think the humans demanded only one concession: to aid in the Blight, despite there being absolutely no evidence to support this? Not only does that contradict how the Grey Wardens are politically neutral during a conflict, that doesn't even mesh with how we've seen the Dalish treat Grey Wardens. The Dalish treatment of the Wardens show that they respect them, and there was no implication that any clan wouldn't send aid to fight the Blight.

 

And we know that Iloren fought during the Second Blight, in the Anderfels; we also know that the Dalish wouldn't aid an enemy that threatened them since the reign of Drakon.

 

 

Who was exiled from her clan because she wanted vengeance against the humans who tried to burn the clan down with the forest.

 

 

The Chantry claims the Dalish started the war, while the Dalish claim the Chantry started it. Even WoT never clarifies who actually started the war. And I see no reason to condemn an entire society for the actions of a single man against the humans who murdered his son and raped his daughter, or because Merrill spoke to a spirit who was trapped for over a millennia, since the war between Arlathan and Tevinter.

The knife-ears are wrong, some fade entitities are ok to deal with, like the spirit Wynne knew, others like Audacity, the Forbidden Ones, etc... should be left the hell alone.

 

Merrill made the deal, not being aware of all the consequences does not absolve her of guilt.

 

The Dalish left because the lands were now part of Orlais and sticking around while maintaining their delusion of independence would not be beneficial to their life expectancy.

 

That isn't what I said and you know it. 

 

and the Government of the Dales sat there and watched, waited for Orlais to become weakened, then pounced.

 

No, WoT is very clear about the start of the war, it happened after the elves sacked a border town, the lead up to the war is less clear, the elves claimed the Chantry were prosteltyzing with armed escorts, but that is not what started the war. 

[Steelcan]

 

Velanna was exiled from her clan.  She and a few others chose to leave their clan of their own volition because they disagreed with the Keeper.  Those that left to follow Velanna were of a more vengeful nature.  The Keeper and the other elves in the clan agreed that violence only made conflicts between the clan and human settlements worse.  Don't paint such a broad stroke - take a step back and look at the individuals.  Otherwise you're generalizing a very dynamic culture and come across as painfully prejudiced.  Especially when you use what is known to be a racist slur in the Dragon Age universe to casually refer to a group of people.

She's doing wonders as an emmisary of them, why didn't the Dalish try and stop her?  They must have known that a loose cannon like her running around slaughtering people was bound to cause some animosity.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I think it's perfectly logical that some of us refuse to blame Merrill for the actions committed by other people.

That is like blaiming the bear for attacking the kid that was poking it with a stig.....

[LobselVith8]

The knife-ears are wrong, some fade entitities are ok to deal with, like the spirit Wynne knew, others like Audacity, the Forbidden Ones, etc... should be left the hell alone.

 

I think Anders had that same idea when it came to Justice, but he was mistaken. As Merrill said, "Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

 

Merrill made the deal, not being aware of all the consequences does not absolve her of guilt.

 

Absolutely no one claims Merrill brokered a deal with Audacity. Marethari claims in Act III that Audacity will escape through the restored Eluvian, but she never claims Merrill made a deal with the spirit.

 

and the Government of the Dales sat there and watched, waited for Orlais to become weakened, then pounced.

 

According to the Chantry, but not the Dalish. It's why there are two historical accounts.

 

No, WoT is very clear about the start of the war, it happened after the elves sacked a border town, the lead up to the war is less clear, the elves claimed the Chantry were prosteltyzing with armed escorts, but that is not what started the war. 

 

No, WoT is ambiguous as to who started the war, or even whether or not the attack on Red Crossing was unprovoked, or in retaliation to human incursion into sovereign territory. It's why I included the entire (albeit brief) entry in my Dalish thread a few months prior.

[Ryzaki]

 

Different strokes, I suppose. I loathed the rivalmance. Hawke telling Merrill she was wrong to pursue a course of action she thought could help her people out of their decline never felt right to me, and his ignorance about her culture and this technology only compounded the problem I had with it. To each their own, I suppose.

 

 

Considering that Orlais was created through conquest and conversion to Drakon's particular religion, I can see why the elves would be hesitant to trust their neighbor. The historical examples of Nevarra, Kirkwall, and Ferelden can attest to how little trust one should place in Orlais and the Orlesians' inability to restraint their imperialistic ambitions.

 

 

You're forgetting the dwarves, who (unlike both humans and elves) are the only ones who have consistently taken the threat of the darkspawn seriously.

 

 

Yeah her willingness to throw people under the bus for her convenience needed a reality check so She admits he was right at the end so alls well that ends well.

 

Though ends well is more like they've lost everyone else in both their families and go wandering off to explore the world together for dalish history and such so I guess it's more a so so ending than anything.

 

Oh yes understandable actions can still be stupid though. It's cutting off your nose to spite your face as my mother used to say.

 

It's easy to do that when they're constantly threatening your borders. The humans and elves don't have to deal with that crap. "Your nightmare is my everyday." as it were.

[LobselVith8]

That is like blaiming the bear for attacking the kid that was poking it with a stig.....

 

That example isn't comparable to Marethari releasing Audacity because she thought she knew better, or members of the clan attempting murder because they didn't like what they were told.

[MisterJB]

Considering that Orlais was created through conquest and conversion to Drakon's particular religion, I can see why the elves would be hesitant to trust their neighbor. The historical examples of Nevarra, Kirkwall, and Ferelden can attest to how little trust one should place in Orlais and the Orlesians' inability to restraint their imperialistic ambitions.

Enlightened self-interest.

Had Orlais fallen to the Darkspawn, then millions of Orlesian women would have bee turned into Broodmothers that would then produce millions of Darkspawn that would, eventually, be the Dales' problem.

Besides, Orlais takes advantages of Bligths by stepping within national borders with the excuse the Darkspawn must be defeated; and they must; and then refusing to leave.

During the Second Blight, it was Orlais that was threatened and if anyone could have taken advantage of it, was the elves.

[Steelcan]

I think Anders had that same idea when it came to Justice, but he was mistaken. As Merrill said, "Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

 

 

Absolutely no one claims Merrill brokered a deal with Audacity. Marethari claims in Act III that Audacity will escape through the restored Eluvian, but she never claims Merrill made a deal with the spirit.

 

 

According to the Chantry, but not the Dalish. It's why there are two historical accounts.

 

 

No, WoT is ambiguous as to who started the war, or even whether or not the attack on Red Crossing was unprovoked, or in retaliation to human incursion into sovereign territory. It's why I included the entire (albeit brief) entry in my Dalish thread a few months prior.

>all spirits are dangerous, let me work with this one to restore an object of unknown function and power, its totally different

 

the attack is what caused the war, whether the Dalsih were justified in attacking or not is another matter

[LobselVith8]

It's easy to do that when they're constantly threatening your borders. The humans and elves don't have to deal with that crap. "Your nightmare is my everyday." as it were.

 

I wouldn't call it easy to go out and fight darkspawn; it's not as though the dwarves simply ignore the issue and stay in the relative comfort of Orzammar. Generally, the humans and elves ignore the threat posed by the darkspawn, and it can come to bit them hard once the final Archdemon is killed, and there isn't a Song leading most of the darkspawn towards a slumbering Old God. An ocean of darkspawn who populate dwarven thaigs that run the entire expanse of Thedas isn't an issue that anyone should handwave. For all their mistakes, I commend the dwarves for that.

[Ryzaki]

I wouldn't call it easy to go out and fight darkspawn; it's not as though the dwarves simply ignore the issue and stay in the relative comfort of Orzammar. Generally, the humans and elves ignore the threat posed by the darkspawn, and it can come to bit them hard once the final Archdemon is killed, and there isn't a Song leading most of the darkspawn towards a slumbering Old God. An ocean of darkspawn who populate dwarven thaigs that run the entire expanse of Thedas isn't an issue that anyone should handwave. For all their mistakes, I commend the dwarves for that.

 

If they don't fight the darkspawn they will over run them. They have already overrun several of their lands. they can't just ignore it.

 

Humans and elves can ignore it because the darkspawn don't threaten to overrun them until blight time. But yeah that probably will blow up in their face once the last archedemon is dead. But if the darkspawn do head to the surface it's highly likely they'll try to overwhelm the dwarves first. They're not smart creatures.

 

Oh yes but they're not exactly in a position to ignore the issue. That's my point.

[LobselVith8]

>all spirits are dangerous, let me work with this one to restore an object of unknown function and power, its totally different

 

Talking to a spirit who was trapped by ancient and powerful magic since the war between Arlathan and Tevinter in order to learn blood magic, since she didn't have sufficient amounts of lyrium to cleanse the shard with ordinary magic. Her construction of the Eluvian was based off her research into the lore of the Eluvians, and information she gleamed from the shard she took from the Elven Ruins. Therefore, it is different.

 

the attack is what caused the war, whether the Dalsih were justified in attacking or not is another matter

 

The Chantry claims the attack on Red Crossing caused the war, and that it was unprovoked. The Dalish claim the humans started the war, and trespassed their borders. We aren't in a position to know which side is correct.

[A Clever Name]

 

She's doing wonders as an emmisary of them, why didn't the Dalish try and stop her?  They must have known that a loose cannon like her running around slaughtering people was bound to cause some animosity.

...She's not an emissary for them?  When did anyone from her clan ever say that?  And it's a little more complicated than "Velanna is about to do something stupid" because it's "several people we have known for our whole lives are about to do something stupid."  Regardless, the remainder of the clan is not morally culpable for what a group that left of their own free will does.  It is also worthy of note that Velanna's sister, Seranni, went with the group in order to steer Velanna away from violence, so someone did try to do something.  Not that it mattered in the end.

 

Aaanyway, trying to get back on topic...someone (forgive me for forgetting your username) mentioned something about being a survivor of clan Virnehn?  I actually think that would be sort of interesting!  I don't know about being from Yevven/Josmael's clan, though.  Is Dragon Age: Redemption considered canon?

[MisterJB]

The Chantry claims the attack on Red Crossing caused the war, and that it was unprovoked. The Dalish claim the humans started the war, and trespassed their borders. We aren't in a position to know which side is correct.

But we know who started it. The Dalish did.

If the Chantry sent Templars and this lead to the Dales attacking Red Crossing, then they attacked a group not directly affiliated with the Chantry; that is to say, Orlesians; and thus started the war with Orlais.

If the Chantry only sent missionaries and Orlais sent traders and this lead to elves attacking Red Crossing; which then lead to the war, the Exalted March and Templars in the Dales; then it was still the Dales who started the war with Orlais

[Steelcan]

Talking to a spirit who was trapped by ancient and powerful magic since the war between Arlathan and Tevinter in order to learn blood magic, since she didn't have sufficient amounts of lyrium to cleanse the shard with ordinary magic. Her construction of the Eluvian was based off her research into the lore of the Eluvians, and information she gleamed from the shard she took from the Elven Ruins. Therefore, it is different.

 

 

The Chantry claims the attack on Red Crossing caused the war, and that it was unprovoked. The Dalish claim the humans started the war, and trespassed their borders. We aren't in a position to know which side is correct.

So now its ok to do so under certain conditions?  And doing so to learn blood magic, you know that thing that may have started the darkspawn and such.... from a demon... I cannot comprhend how solid an idea this is.

 

The Chantry claims the Elves were attacking and raiding, the Elves compalined about preachers with armed excorts, but war was declared after the attack on Red Crossing

[Tora Panthera]

I don't know why, but I have a slight suspicion that we'll come from Zathrian's clan, which would be Lanaya's now. Since Zathrian even disappears in the epilogue if he survives.

[MisterJB]

I don't know why, but I have a slight suspicion that we'll come from Zathrian's clan, which would be Lanaya's now. Since Zathrian even disappears in the epilogue if he survives.

We get to play as werewolves? Sweet.

[LobselVith8]

But we know who started it. The Dalish did.

 

No developer has clarified who started the war. Even World of Thedas is intentionally ambiguous about who started the war. We don't actually know what caused the inception of the war between the humans and the elves.

 

If the Chantry sent Templars and this lead to the Dales attacking Red Crossing, then they attacked a group not directly affiliated with the Chantry; that is to say, Orlesians; and thus started the war with Orlais.

 

If the templars were stationed at Red Crossing, then it would explain why the elves attacked. If the templars were kidnapping or killing free mages, or assaulting people in attempts to convert them, then it would have caused a serious issue for many people in the Dales.

 

If the Chantry only sent missionaries and Orlais sent traders and this lead to elves attacking Red Crossing; which then lead to the war, the Exalted March and Templars in the Dales; then it was still the Dales who started the war with Orlais

 

Again, we don't know what actually happened, only that both sides blame the other for the war.

[Steelcan]

Either way the elves threw the first stone, or arrows and spells as the case may be, the Orlesians/Chantry MAY have provoked them, but the war started when elves decided Red Crossing needed a good burning

[EmperorSahlertz]

WoT straight up says that the Elves attack Red Crossing starting the war....

[LobselVith8]

So now its ok to do so under certain conditions?  And doing so to learn blood magic, you know that thing that may have started the darkspawn and such.... from a demon... I cannot comprhend how solid an idea this is.

 

Merrill never said Audacity was a good spirit; she actually cautions that spirits are dangerous, but that you can gather intel from them, as long as you're careful. Hawke can do precisely this with the Profane Abomination, to learn about the situation in the primeval thaig, and with Torpor, to discover Feynriel is being fought over by two competing spirits; neither scenario requires Hawke to make a bargain with them, or to completely trust either one.

 

The Chantry claims the Elves were attacking and raiding, the Elves compalined about preachers with armed excorts, but war was declared after the attack on Red Crossing

 

The elves took issue with armed and armored religious soldiers trespassing into their kingdom. The militant arm of the Chantry who believe that they have "dominion over mages by divine right". I can see a myriad of issues arise by having the Chantry's military trespassing into foreign territory, where there are free mages, and followers of a different faith.

 

Either way the elves threw the first stone, or arrows and spells as the case may be, the Orlesians/Chantry MAY have provoked them, but the war started when elves decided Red Crossing needed a good burning

 

The Chantry certainly claims that was when it formally started, but we don't know whether or not that's actually the case. If humans were invading the Dales before Red Crossing, then the war started much earlier for the elves.

[umadcommander]

on the list of people id trust to play around with demons merrill ranks very low, id struggle to trust her not to run with scissors