231 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Since you're already participating in this thread, why would I even need to?

Because arguing from a less biased position would make your argument stronger and your audience more receptive.

[Dean_the_Young]

 

 

Think about it, though - would you automatically extend your welcome to outsiders, given a history of violence perpetrated against your people by them?  That sort of lifestyle hardens you, and breeds a lack of trust.  It's like when you first meet someone.  They might seem distant and harsh, but given enough time they'll warm up to you.  One way of doing this is to make sure they understand you're not a threat.  I've met a lot of people like this - refugees especially seem tight-lipped and unwilling to open up at first.  Is it necessarily the best way to handle outside contact?  Probably not.  Does it make sense?  Definitely.  That's why I can't really blame them for being mistrustful.  It's a frustration for sure, though, and one that doesn't help to put them in a better light with humans/elves that live in the city.

 

I don't make my life decisions based on who killed who hundreds of years ago... so sure. I have extended hospitality to people who may or may not have been race-enemies to other people in my lineage.

[LobselVith8]

Because arguing from a less biased position would make your argument stronger and your audience more receptive.

 

I addressed the problems that could arise between the Andrastian elves and the Dalish. I also read how you vilified all the Dalish for the behavior of a few, and how you continually ignore the flaws among the city elves in this discussion. Maybe you should try adhering to your own advice, instead of taking issue with me because I pointed out that the city elves can be just as flawed as the Dalish.

[Mistic]

I can see some problems arising due to their conflicting ideologies and religious views if the two tried to live together. How would the Andrastian elves treat the elven mages among the Dalish, given the opposing view of magic? Would some of the Andrastian elves try to convert the Dalish? How will elven followers of the Makers react to living alongside follows of the Creators when it's taught that the Maker will only return once the Chant is sung from the four corners of the world? Would the Andrastian elves who regard the Dalish as savages be willing to cooperate with them?

 

Perhaps it would take a charismatic leader to bring them together.

 

More than a charismatic leader. I answer your questions with another questions: why not? It's certainly sad, but there's no liberalism in Thedas. In a continent where having an official religion is not only normal, but expected, if the City Elves are majority they could easily impose Andrastianism as the official religion. And again, why shouldn't they? For generations, it's been what they have known.

 

An Andrastian Elf Nation would be as elven as Arlathan or the Dales, but it would be different. The problem would be that in that case the Dalish wouldn't have any place in it, unless they imposed on the majority.

 

I think there are a number of problems that can take place, even among the elves who never lived among the Dalish. Devout Anders elves, colorful Orlesian elves, dangerous Antivan elves, Qunari elves - there are a number of problems that can arise simply among them on their own, much less if you include an influx of the People coming to a promise land for the Elvhen.

 

True, but most of them can find common ground in Andrastianism, something that the Dalish don't have.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I addressed the problems that could arise between the Andrastian elves and the Dalish. I also read how you vilified all the Dalish for the behavior of a few, and how you continually ignore the flaws among the city elves in this discussion. Maybe you should try adhering to your own advice, instead of taking issue with me because I pointed out that the city elves can be just as flawed as the Dalish.

Yes, the problems the City Elves will cause. You've never had the Dalish put in a position other than the victim or on a pedestal. 

 

I have not villified all Dalish for the actions of a few. I have said they are anything from wary to hostile to outsiders, which they are, and think less of City Elves, which they do. The onus is on the Dalish to counter what their other clans have done. I'm just going off what the games and books have shown. As for City Elves, I've never said they won't cause problems. 

[A Clever Name]

I don't make my life decisions based on who killed who hundreds of years ago... so sure. I have extended hospitality to people who may or may not have been race-enemies to other people in my lineage.

Oh, no, I wasn't arguing about what happened hundreds of years ago!  That's neither here nor there.  I'm talking about the experiences that only serve to let old wounds fester.  We know that humans and Dalish elves have a history of fighting with one another, especially when clans settle too closely to prejudiced human settlements.  This is what I was referring to - not the fall of the Dales.

 

With humans and possibly Qunari, I get that. But not Dwarves and especially not City Elves. The fact they don't see City Elves as part of the People unless they come crawling to them to be converted is what I hate most about the Dalish. 

 

All clans are different, and thus possess different attitudes toward city elves.  You cannot say that all are the same way - we haven't seen all of the clans, nor have we had occasion to speak with every individual member of the clans we've interacted with to ask them their opinion.  It's one thing to say how things are, and another to speculate on how they will always be.  "Nothing in life is certain but death and taxes!"

 

You can hate them all you like for trying to keep their culture alive in an arguably distasteful manner.  But I doubt a city elf would run to the Dalish without being willing to accept an entirely new way of life - and if they didn't want to submit themselves to that, there's nothing stopping them from returning to the cities.

 

Unlikely. The city elves' attempt at the preservation of their culture extends to a tree and there is a codex entry mentioning how one Alienage burned it for wood. Iona will remark how the city elves of Ferelden sing the same songs as the humans, speak the same tongue, worship the same god and that the only thing setting them apart are the ears.

Anderfel elves will be firmly Andrastean, the Orlesian elves believe duplicity is a virtue, Nevarran elves probably believe in mummifying their dead, etc.

Pol was still saying "Andraste" and "Maker" seven years after joining with that clan and he was a minority and thus, subject to Dalish culture.

 

However, the clan in TME had only round 50 members. Meanwhile, Val-Royeaux's alienage alone has 10000 elves. You think that if all city elves and all dalish moved to the Dales, that the culture that would prevail would be the Dalish one?

 

Why couldn't a theoretical revival of an elven nation-state be multicultural?  I mean, a nation isn't strictly defined by a common religion.  They have the same cultural heritage (one group just holds it with more importance than the other), and extend from the same race.  Nations have been made with less connective tissue before.

[Mistic]

Why couldn't a theoretical revival of an elven nation-state be multicultural?  I mean, a nation isn't strictly defined by a common religion.  They have the same cultural heritage (one group just holds it with more importance than the other), and extend from the same race.  Nations have been made with less connective tissue before.

 

Well, they don't really share the same cultural heritage. A Fereldan City Elf has more in common with Fereldan humans than with Dalish, for example. Yet, you're right, there's still the possibility.

 

The real problem would be with the mages. Because maybe racial tensions are important in Thedas, but we know it's not the only conflict around.

[LobselVith8]

More than a charismatic leader. I answer your questions with another questions: why not? It's certainly sad, but there's no liberalism in Thedas. In a continent where having an official religion is not only normal, but expected, if the City Elves are majority they could easily impose Andrastianism as the official religion. And again, why shouldn't they? For generations, it's been what they have known.

 

An Andrastian Elf Nation would be as elven as Arlathan or the Dales, but it would be different. The problem would be that in that case the Dalish wouldn't have any place in it, unless they imposed on the majority.

 

Personal preference, I suppose. It's certainly a possibility, as I can understand the rational behind why some Andrastian elves would want the Chantry as the official religion, but it's not an outcome I, personally, would want to see happen. I'm more interested in the dynamics of Andrastian, Qunari, and Dalish elves having to work together towards a common goal, which is autonomy from human control.

 

True, but most of them can find common ground in Andrastianism, something that the Dalish don't have.

 

Except for the Qunari elves, but I see your point. Of course, without the Qunari or the Dalish, I can see those differences being an issue down the road.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

All clans are different, and thus possess different attitudes toward city elves.  You cannot say that all are the same way - we haven't seen all of the clans, nor have we had occasion to speak with every individual member of the clans we've interacted with to ask them their opinion.  It's one thing to say how things are, and another to speculate on how they will always be.  "Nothing in life is certain but death and taxes!"

 

You can hate them all you like for trying to keep their culture alive in an arguably distasteful manner.  But I doubt a city elf would run to the Dalish without being willing to accept an entirely new way of life - and if they didn't want to submit themselves to that, there's nothing stopping them from returning to the cities.

Until we see evidence to the contrary, why should anyone believe all Dalish clans don't act the same as the three we've seen so far? I'd gladly be proven wrong and that we've only met the worst of the clans who are the outliers to Dalish society, but there is no evidence for that. Can you honestly provide me more evidence that more Dalish are not like the ones we've met than evidence that they are? 

 

I don't hate them for keeping the old elven culture alive. I hate them for mistreating the City Elves unless they bow to the Dalish ways. The City Elves can be useful to clans without worshipping the same gods and having the same customs. Their choices shouldn't be "live in the slums" or "sacrifice your beliefs". 

[LobselVith8]

Yes, the problems the City Elves will cause. You've never had the Dalish put in a position other than the victim or on a pedestal. 

 

I've addressed that Zathrian was wrong to put his revenge over the lives of his clan, I've condemned Marethari for her actions, and I put blame on the Sabrae Clan for attempted murder. I've never made any excuses for Clan Virnehn, who I loathe. I've pointed out that the clans are different, and can vary from one another. You don't seem to be that familiar with my posts at all.

 

I have not villified all Dalish for the actions of a few. I have said they are anything from wary to hostile to outsiders, which they are, and think less of City Elves, which they do. The onus is on the Dalish to counter what their other clans have done. I'm just going off what the games and books have shown. As for City Elves, I've never said they won't cause problems. 

 

That's all you've done so far. You've made post after post making your disdain clear, and conflating the views of some Dalish with the views of all of them. You didn't comment on how some city elves look down on the elves who try to live outside of the Alienage, to the point of condemning them as "flat ears", or even how some of them view the Dalish as nothing more than "savages". You're taking issue with me for pointing out that some of the Andrastian elves can be derogatory and flawed simply because you favor them.

[Mistic]

Personal preference, I suppose. It's certainly a possibility, as I can understand the rational behind why some Andrastian elves would want the Chantry as the official religion, but it's not an outcome I, personally, would want to see happen. I'm more interested in the dynamics of Andrastian, Qunari, and Dalish elves having to work together towards a common goal, which is autonomy from human control.

 

Hey! The Qunari elves aren't under human control

 

I understand, and I would prefer it that way, but given the current state of Thedas and the tone of previous DA games, I find it difficult. However, what if the choice was between City Elves and Dalish Elves? No third option, just A or B. That would be an interesting choice, wouldn't it? I mean, if a Dalish Inquisitor knew what happened in TME, they wouldn't think very well of Briala, would they?

 

Except for the Qunari elves, but I see your point. Of course, without the Qunari or the Dalish, I can see those differences being an issue down the road.

 

Now I'm remembering the first season of The Legend of Korra...

[LobselVith8]

Until we see evidence to the contrary, why should anyone believe all Dalish clans don't act the same as the three we've seen so far? I'd gladly be proven wrong and that we've only met the worst of the clans who are the outliers to Dalish society, but there is no evidence for that. Can you honestly provide me more evidence that more Dalish are not like the ones we've met than evidence that they are? 

 

Because we've met different types of Dalish, even within the same clan? It's not as though Sarel's chilly reception isn't completely different than the positive ones the protagonist can receive from Lanaya, Elora, Cammen, Gheyna, Athras, and Deygan, and we have the loss of Sarel's wife provided as to why he's so negative towards The Warden. There's also Velanna's clan remarking positively upon seeing her in the company of humans, and taking the word of an outsider when it's remarked that Velanna has changed for the better.

 

I don't hate them for keeping the old elven culture alive. I hate them for mistreating the City Elves unless they bow to the Dalish ways. The City Elves can be useful to clans without worshipping the same gods and having the same customs. Their choices shouldn't be "live in the slums" or "sacrifice your beliefs". 

 

You hate the Dalish for the behavior of some of them, yet you don't hate the city elves despite how some are condescending towards the elves who try to live outside the Alienage, or the ones who denigrate the Dalish.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You hate the Dalish for the behavior of some of them, yet you don't hate the city elves despite how some are condescending towards the elves who try to live outside the Alienage, or the ones who denigrate the Dalish.

Let me address this. I have never said I don't condemn the City Elves who do this. But I know those elves are in the minority due to ingame evidence, while the Dalish in comparison at best are 50-50. And also this is a Dalish Elf thread, so I will address my concerns about the Dalish. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

I've addressed that Zathrian was wrong to put his revenge over the lives of his clan, I've condemned Marethari for her actions, and I put blame on the Sabrae Clan for attempted murder. I've never made any excuses for Clan Virnehn, who I loathe. I've pointed out that the clans are different, and can vary from one another. You don't seem to be that familiar with my posts at all.

And usually in the same sentences you exonorate Merrill for any wrong, deny that all Dalish act like every Dalish we've met so far, and that the original humans still brought it upon themselves for killing Zathrian's children...

[LobselVith8]

Hey! The Qunari elves aren't under human control

 

I was addressing keeping an independent elven kingdom autonomous.

 

I understand, and I would prefer it that way, but given the current state of Thedas and the tone of previous DA games, I find it difficult. However, what if the choice was between City Elves and Dalish Elves? No third option, just A or B. That would be an interesting choice, wouldn't it? I mean, if a Dalish Inquisitor knew what happened in TME, they wouldn't think very well of Briala, would they?

 

It would depend on the protagonist, I suppose. As an elven Inquisitor, I would likely be befuddled as to why Clan Virnehn was dealing with a spirit in the first place, but I'd probably have more of a problem with Celene torching the elves of Halamshiral than with Briala, who seems to genuinely want to have Andrastian and Dalish elves work together to emancipate all the elves. It's why I'd rather work with the elves than with either Celene or Gaspard as an elven protagonist.

[A Clever Name]

 

Well, they don't really share the same cultural heritage. A Fereldan City Elf has more in common with Fereldan humans than with Dalish, for example. Yet, you're right, there's still the possibility.

 

The real problem would be with the mages. Because maybe racial tensions are important in Thedas, but we know it's not the only conflict around.

Excuse me, I should have been more clear with my phrasing.  They are all elves, so they are the remnants of the ancient elves, and have a common ancestral background, which is usually enough for most groups to qualify as a "nation."  That doesn't mean they wouldn't have issues, of course, or ensure that it would work out.  The city elves and the Dalish have been raised with different cultural values and ideologies, which is where I see things being more difficult to work around.  There would have to be something very powerful to serve as a central force binding them together until they could build upon attitudes that they were all united as one group.  I mean, the Free Marches can (sort of) work this way.

 

I see mages as a bit of a conflict as well, due to their dissimilar beliefs.  The Andrastian-background elves would have a more difficult time accepting the Dalish apprenticeship system as opposed to a Circle.

Until we see evidence to the contrary, why should anyone believe all Dalish clans don't act the same as the three we've seen so far? I'd gladly be proven wrong and that we've only met the worst of the clans who are the outliers to Dalish society, but there is no evidence for that. Can you honestly provide me more evidence that more Dalish are not like the ones we've met than evidence that they are? 

 

I don't hate them for keeping the old elven culture alive. I hate them for mistreating the City Elves unless they bow to the Dalish ways. The City Elves can be useful to clans without worshipping the same gods and having the same customs. Their choices shouldn't be "live in the slums" or "sacrifice your beliefs". 

...Because that's sterotyping a whole subset of people as being inherently bad, which is usually something to more than wag a finger at?  We have the clan that took in Aveline (the chevalier), along with the clan that found Maric and Loghain in the woods, which would suggest there are some that are more open-minded.  Look at Codex entries written from the Dalish point of view and you'll find that they are more fractured in opinion and mindset.  Nothing is ever so cut and dry as you want to make it, which is a theme in the Dragon Age series.  I question why you don't try to search for your own evidence, but I suppose not everyone tries to challenge their beliefs - hence why these threads always devolve into "I sympathize with the Dalish" vs. "I hate the Dalish and this is why!"

 

Of course their choices shouldn't be between those two extremes.  Unfortunately life is rarely ever fair.  You can't expect it to be.  And I am willing to accept that you hate them for a single action, but don't turn one distasteful aspect of their culture into a hatred of their entirety.  It's a fine line, my friend.

[LobselVith8]

Let me address this. I have never said I don't condemn the City Elves who do this. But I know those elves are in the minority due to ingame evidence, while the Dalish in comparison at best are 50-50. And also this is a Dalish Elf thread, so I will address my concerns about the Dalish. 

 

There's no in-game evidence that it's a minority among the Andrastian elves, nor is there any in-game evidence that it's 50/50 for the Dalish, particularly when I already named a number of Dalish elves in Zathrian's clan who don't behave in the same way as Sarel, and we also have Velanna's clan making positive remarks about the shift in Velanna's attitude towards humans. That isn't even touching on the historical examples of a clan adopting a human child, or the clans signing a treaty with the Wardens to aid during a time of Blight.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

...Because that's sterotyping a whole subset of people as being inherently bad, which is usually something to more than wag a finger at?  We have the clan that took in Aveline (the chevalier), along with the clan that found Maric and Loghain in the woods, which would suggest there are some that are more open-minded.  Look at Codex entries written from the Dalish point of view and you'll find that they are more fractured in opinion and mindset.  Nothing is ever so cut and dry as you want to make it, which is a theme in the Dragon Age series.  I question why you don't try to search for your own evidence, but I suppose not everyone tries to challenge their beliefs - hence why these threads always devolve into "I sympathize with the Dalish" vs. "I hate the Dalish and this is why!"

 

Of course their choices shouldn't be between those two extremes.  Unfortunately life is rarely ever fair.  You can't expect it to be.  And I am willing to accept that you hate them for a single action, but don't turn one distasteful aspect of their culture into a hatred of their entirety.  It's a fine line, my friend.

 

Hence me being open for my views of them to change. But they have to be the ones to change my views by showing me they are different. 

Well, I'd argue that Aveline's clan did it to insult the Orlesians by having their warrior beat all of theirs.

As for the ones who helped Maric and Co, remember that they almost revere Flemeth and Flemeth had a vested interest in them so that's more complicated than we think in my opinion.  

I don't really trust codexes at all because they are supposed to be biased. This goes for ones that villify the Dalish as well. 

 

Again, I don't hate the Dalish. I hate some things they do, but I don't hate them overall. 

[LobselVith8]

And usually in the same sentences you exonorate Merrill for any wrong, deny that all Dalish act like every Dalish we've met so far, and that the original humans still brought it upon themselves for killing Zathrian's children...

 

Actually, I don't blame Merrill for the actions of other people, I address (by name) the Dalish who don't act like Sarel in illustrating that the Dalish aren't all the same, and I never endorsed the curse, but I also have no sympathy for rapists.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There's no in-game evidence that it's a minority among the Andrastian elves, nor is there any in-game evidence that it's 50/50 for the Dalish, particularly when I already named a number of Dalish elves in Zathrian's clan who don't behave in the same way as Sarel, and we also have Velanna's clan making positive remarks about the shift in Velanna's attitude towards humans. That isn't even touching on the historical examples of a clan adopting a human child, or the clans signing a treaty with the Wardens to aid during a time of Blight.

Sure there is. How many City Elves had you heard insult the Dalish, and saying stuff like "Humans tell us" doesn't count, versus how many have no opinion or even respect them, like those in DA2. Meanwhile we have several accounts of the Dalish saying things like they are the 'true elves' or the City Elves 'have forgotten themselves' and 'are lost to us'. 

 

You mean the same clan that Zarathian told them we are here to help but before that we were almost attacked? The same clan who needed us to save them from the Werewolves? Yes, I don't see any reason they would be on better behavior than usual, like sucking up to the Warden to make sure they help. 

I'll give you the one Dalish guard who says positive things about Velanna being with humans. 

As for the treaty, well we see how willing their ancestors were in helping out against the Blight without a treaty obligating them to. "Let's leave the nation of those that helped us escape enslavement to be ravaged by the Blight for 90 years.". 

[LobselVith8]

Sure there is. How many City Elves had you heard insult the Dalish, and saying stuff like "Humans tell us" doesn't count, versus how many have no opinion or even respect them, like those in DA2. Meanwhile we have several accounts of the Dalish saying things like they are the 'true elves' or the City Elves 'have forgotten themselves' and 'are lost to us'. 

 

We hardly meet any of the elven residents of the Kirkwall Alienage. The majority of them are NPCs with no actual personality, and only a seldom few are even characters who we interact with. And I already cited the numerous examples of men and women in Zathrian's clan who illustrate how different the Dalish can be, even within a single clan.

 

You mean the same clan that Zarathian told them we are here to help but before that we were almost attacked? The same clan who needed us to save them from the Werewolves? Yes, I don't see any reason they would be on better behavior than usual, like sucking up to the Warden to make sure they help. 

I'll give you the one Dalish guard who says positive things about Velanna being with humans. 

 

Human lords and lynch mobs threaten the clan, as well as templars; you shouldn't be surprised that Mithra is apprehensive towards an armed outsider (with an escort of armed individuals) heading towards the camp. There is also the numerous examples among Zathrian's own clan I cited earlier that show how varied the Dalish can be, even within the same clan.

 

As for the treaty, well we see how willing their ancestors were in helping out against the Blight without a treaty obligating them to. "Let's leave the nation of those that helped us escape enslavement to be ravaged by the Blight for 90 years.". 

 

You mean the neighboring empire that was formed by conquering the other neighboring city-states, to create a society under the worship of the Maker?

[Dean_the_Young]

As for the treaty, well we see how willing their ancestors were in helping out against the Blight without a treaty obligating them to. "Let's leave the nation of those that helped us escape enslavement to be ravaged by the Blight for 90 years.". 

 

Oh, it needn't be as malevolent as that. More like xenophobic apathy: helping the shemlen would mean getting close to them and risk contamination by human culture. That could, like, set the immorality reclamation project back by decades or centuries!

 

It was probably more like not wanting to touch a dirty hobo being beaten with a tire iron than hoping the hobo would die from it, mixed with a bit of apathy/disentanglement that as long as they weren't doing the beating there would be no reason to hold a grudge.

[Xilizhra]

Hopefully we get a new Dalish Clan with interresting personalities, varied backgrounds and hopeful futures... Then they all get incinerated by the cataclysm at the Temple of Sacred Ashes.

Why would the whole clan be at the summit? You'd just need one representative.

[Xilizhra]

Oh, it needn't be as malevolent as that. More like xenophobic apathy: helping the shemlen would mean getting close to them and risk contamination by human culture. That could, like, set the immorality reclamation project back by decades or centuries!

 

It was probably more like not wanting to touch a dirty hobo being beaten with a tire iron than hoping the hobo would die from it, mixed with a bit of apathy/disentanglement that as long as they weren't doing the beating there would be no reason to hold a grudge.

Your analogy works if you replace the hobo with a bloodstained KGB agent.

[Steelcan]

Your analogy works if you replace the hobo with a bloodstained KGB agent.

and you are a bloodstained CIA agent