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#176
Dean_the_Young

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...Because that's sterotyping a whole subset of people as being inherently bad, which is usually something to more than wag a finger at?

 

 

Only if it is applied irrationally and falaciously. It is, however, quite people for a whole subset of people to share common viewpoints, beliefs, and opinions which may or may not be either commendable or laudable. That is, at it's heart, what culture is: shared belief systems. And if a shared belief system is flawed, then the people who hold and accept and express those flaws.

 

Collectivization is legitimate if it is accurate and based in reality. Collective group identification is never about absolutes: not all of any tradition or culture feel the same things and express the same views. Culture is the collective generalities, not the universal requirements- but just as you can't use a collective to condemn all the individuals who may not agree, dissidents who don't do not disprove the nature or trends of a culture.

 

Saying that the Dalish are a xenophobic collective is as true as saying the Human nations of Thedas are racist and oppressive. Which... they are. We can look at objective facts of policies and discrimination patterns. Not all people of these groups express or support these, but enough are (and their viewpoints both common and non-controversial enough to not be outside the mainstream) that it would be fair to characterize, say Ferelden, where killing in defense of an elf is a crime, as a racist society. And the flip side of a racist society is that, because societies are defined and generalized by the people who compose them, it would be a society of racists as well.


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#177
A Clever Name

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Hence me being open for my views of them to change. But they have to be the ones to change my views by showing me they are different. 

Well, I'd argue that Aveline's clan did it to insult the Orlesians by having their warrior beat all of theirs.  :P

As for the ones who helped Maric and Co, remember that they almost revere Flemeth and Flemeth had a vested interest in them so that's more complicated than we think in my opinion.  

I don't really trust codexes at all because they are supposed to be biased. This goes for ones that villify the Dalish as well. 

 

Again, I don't hate the Dalish. I hate some things they do, but I don't hate them overall. 

Sorry, I just realized it sounded as though I was accusing you of hating the Dalish as a whole!  That was not my intent at all, and I apologize if I offended you.  I meant to refer to that particular dislike of the Dalish (which I happen to agree is one of the less acceptable practices they propagate).

 

No, but the fact that the Codex entries are biased is useful in giving you some insight to their author's viewpoints.  It illustrates how varied the Dalish are.  For example, the Dalish Codex entry on aravels shows that an elf named Taniel prefers the nomadic life, which directly contradicts the attitude of those who want to find another homeland.

 

I don't think they would have taken in Aveline and made some grand scheme to raise her to become a chevalier and challenge Orlais' more rigid traditions, though.  That's a bit of a stretch.  I have no clue why that clan's Flemeth complex affects their goodwill and positive image, either.

 

 

On-topic, it's certainly my hope that only one person from the clan would be at the summit.  I do wonder if that means they wouldn't use the "you've been exiled" possibility because they want someone who is directly tied to the Dalish at the summit.



#178
Xilizhra

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and you are a bloodstained CIA agent

Exactly! Thanks.



#179
LobselVith8

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Why would the whole clan be at the summit? You'd just need one representative.

 

An elven protagonist could be in the vicinity for another reason: namely, the apparition of Shartan who appears in the ruins of the temple. I could imagine the Keeper and the hahren of the clan might have some interest in this, and perhaps the elven protagonist (maybe the First or an exceptional hunter) is investigating this to uncover information about this time period. I'd certainly love an opportunity to learn more about elven history, and see options that allow the player to define who their Dalish character is.



#180
Hanako Ikezawa

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Sorry, I just realized it sounded as though I was accusing you of hating the Dalish as a whole!  That was not my intent at all, and I apologize if I offended you.  I meant to refer to that particular dislike of the Dalish (which I happen to agree is one of the less acceptable practices they propagate).

 

No, but the fact that the Codex entries are biased is useful in giving you some insight to their author's viewpoints.  It illustrates how varied the Dalish are.  For example, the Dalish Codex entry on aravels shows that an elf named Taniel prefers the nomadic life, which directly contradicts the attitude of those who want to find another homeland.

 

I don't think they would have taken in Aveline and made some grand scheme to raise her to become a chevalier and challenge Orlais' more rigid traditions, though.  That's a bit of a stretch.  I have no clue why that clan's Flemeth complex affects their goodwill and positive image, either.

 

 

On-topic, it's certainly my hope that only one person from the clan would be at the summit.  I do wonder if that means they wouldn't use the "you've been exiled" possibility because they want someone who is directly tied to the Dalish at the summit.

 

It's alright. 

And I know the codex give context to culture by seeing their viewpoints. I meant I don't use them for objective things like "Who did what". 

I was kidding with Aveline, hence the :P

 

My planned Dalish elf doesn't like all of the rules and stuff that come with being a First and later Keeper, so she'd be fine with being exiled. :D



#181
Dean_the_Young

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Your analogy works if you replace the hobo with a bloodstained KGB agent.

 

Nah, in a case of common and immediate grave danger the governments of the west would have helped a KGB agent being beaten by a maurader- plus give free medical care in and attempt to recruit them, or trade them for Western agents if not.

 

A KGB agent is a terrible asset to lose.



#182
Xilizhra

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Nah, in a case of common and immediate grave danger the governments of the west would have helped a KGB agent being beaten by a maurader- plus give free medical care in and attempt to recruit them, or trade them for Western agents if not.

 

A KGB agent is a terrible asset to lose.

True. Superpower politics don't really work in this scenario. A better analogy would be a medieval Christian watching a Muslim getting attacked by a Mongol. The point I was trying to make, though, is that Orlais was not (and never really was) allied with the Dalish, and the Dalish presumably misjudged the scope of the Blight or thought that the Grey Wardens would be able to catch up to it and defeat it before it spread beyond Orlais (which turned out to be true).



#183
A Clever Name

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Only if it is applied irrationally and falaciously. It is, however, quite people for a whole subset of people to share common viewpoints, beliefs, and opinions which may or may not be either commendable or laudable. That is, at it's heart, what culture is: shared belief systems. And if a shared belief system is flawed, then the people who hold and accept and express those flaws.

 

Collectivization is legitimate if it is accurate and based in reality. Collective group identification is never about absolutes: not all of any tradition or culture feel the same things and express the same views. Culture is the collective generalities, not the universal requirements- but just as you can't use a collective to condemn all the individuals who may not agree, dissidents who don't do not disprove the nature or trends of a culture.

 

Saying that the Dalish are a xenophobic collective is as true as saying the Human nations of Thedas are racist and oppressive. Which... they are. We can look at objective facts of policies and discrimination patterns. Not all people of these groups express or support these, but enough are (and their viewpoints both common and non-controversial enough to not be outside the mainstream) that it would be fair to characterize, say Ferelden, where killing in defense of an elf is a crime, as a racist society. And the flip side of a racist society is that, because societies are defined and generalized by the people who compose them, it would be a society of racists as well.

Yes, of course, because "everyone from [insert country here] is [insert generalized comment here]" has always worked out well in real-world analogues.  The definition of culture is dependent on its source - do you want the anthropological definition of culture, or the political definition of culture?  Also I feel obligated to point out that a "flaw" in a set of beliefs is based in perspective - what I might say is a good value you might see as bad, or vice versa.

 

Collectivization is a term used to refer to collective farming, so I don't really know why this is being brought up in your argument.  I'll assume you meant collectivism, in which case there are reasons people are so opposed to such a mindset.  For one, it stifles individuality, which is why I would never use it when I am arguing for viewing Dalish not as a whole, but as individuals with differing opinions.  There are a million other arguments I could make against it, but I doubt anyone wants to hear me ramble on and on about statism.  Not that statism can apply to the Dalish, as they have no central authority.  Hence why collectivism cannot even apply to the Dalish.  Perhaps you could clarify what you meant?  I don't really grasp what you're getting at.

 

Of course both sides are, to an extent, filled with individuals of such a mindset - I never wrote otherwise.  There's really no such thing as "clean hands" in the Dragon Age universe, now is there?  It doesn't mean you should generalize either side, though.  Especially considering laws change through evolving standards of decency.


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#184
EmperorSahlertz

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True. Superpower politics don't really work in this scenario. A better analogy would be a medieval Christian watching a Muslim getting attacked by a Mongol. The point I was trying to make, though, is that Orlais was not (and never really was) allied with the Dalish, and the Dalish presumably misjudged the scope of the Blight or thought that the Grey Wardens would be able to catch up to it and defeat it before it spread beyond Orlais (which turned out to be true).

They STILL let an entire Orlesian town get burned, pillaged, raped and the women turned into Broodmothers. WAY TO GO DALES! Their crime was unforgiveable. Luckily they paid the price.



#185
Xilizhra

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They STILL let an entire Orlesian town get burned, pillaged, raped and the women turned into Broodmothers. WAY TO GO DALES! Their crime was unforgiveable. Luckily they paid the price.

The broodmothers that no one aside from Grey Wardens seem to know about? Not even Morrigan knew why the darkspawn drag people back underground.


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#186
TK514

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The broodmothers that no one aside from Grey Wardens seem to know about? Not even Morrigan knew why the darkspawn drag people back underground.


What, the first three are somehow ok, so you need to debate the Broodmother detail? Because if the first three aren't ok, then the Broodmother part shouldn't matter.

#187
A Clever Name

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They STILL let an entire Orlesian town get burned, pillaged, raped and the women turned into Broodmothers. WAY TO GO DALES! Their crime was unforgiveable. Luckily they paid the price.

Not that they can really "pay the price," considering neighboring states are not culpable for the events that occur within autonomous regions.  With no culpability there is no crime, and with no crime there is nothing that needs remedied.  Thus, there is no way for the Dales to suffer for others' suffering, unless people see it as "they should have done something."  Which, Thedas isn't exactly a proponent of globalization.  So it's really more a matter of people saying "don't you think it's about time you've suffered as well?"  There is no responsibility to protect doctrine.  It shouldn't be expected for, say, the King/Queen of Ferelden to send aid during a Blight to Orlais.  In fact, that's worth noting, considering the other surrounding states did absolutely nothing to help the Orlesian town, either.  If one actor does nothing and is shamed, does that not mean that all actors that did nothing should be shamed as well?
 
Good fences make good neighbors, and all that.  Sometimes it seems nice, then again....

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#188
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Yes, of course, because "everyone from [insert country here] is [insert generalized comment here]" has always worked out well in real-world analogues.  The definition of culture is dependent on its source - do you want the anthropological definition of culture, or the political definition of culture?  Also I feel obligated to point out that a "flaw" in a set of beliefs is based in perspective - what I might say is a good value you might see as bad, or vice versa.

 

Collectivization is a term used to refer to collective farming, so I don't really know why this is being brought up in your argument.  I'll assume you meant collectivism, in which case there are reasons people are so opposed to such a mindset.  For one, it stifles individuality, which is why I would never use it when I am arguing for viewing Dalish not as a whole, but as individuals with differing opinions.  There are a million other arguments I could make against it, but I doubt anyone wants to hear me ramble on and on about statism.  Not that statism can apply to the Dalish, as they have no central authority.  Hence why collectivism cannot even apply to the Dalish.  Perhaps you could clarify what you meant?  I don't really grasp what you're getting at.

 

Of course both sides are, to an extent, filled with individuals of such a mindset - I never wrote otherwise.  There's really no such thing as "clean hands" in the Dragon Age universe, now is there?  It doesn't mean you should generalize either side, though.  Especially considering laws change through evolving standards of decency.

 

 

 

 

Not that they can really "pay the price," considering neighboring states are not culpable for the events that occur within autonomous regions.  With no culpability there is no crime, and with no crime there is nothing that needs remedied.  Thus, there is no way for the Dales to suffer for others' suffering, unless people see it as "they should have done something."  Which, Thedas isn't exactly a proponent of globalization.  So it's really more a matter of people saying "don't you think it's about time you've suffered as well?"  There is no responsibility to protect doctrine.  It shouldn't be expected for, say, the King/Queen of Ferelden to send aid during a Blight to Orlais.  In fact, that's worth noting, considering the other surrounding states did absolutely nothing to help the Orlesian town, either.  If one actor does nothing and is shamed, does that not mean that all actors that did nothing should be shamed as well?
 
Good fences make good neighbors, and all that.  Sometimes it seems nice, then again....

 

 

 

I love you.


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#189
EmperorSahlertz

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Not that they can really "pay the price," considering neighboring states are not culpable for the events that occur within autonomous regions.  With no culpability there is no crime, and with no crime there is nothing that needs remedied.  Thus, there is no way for the Dales to suffer for others' suffering, unless people see it as "they should have done something."  Which, Thedas isn't exactly a proponent of globalization.  So it's really more a matter of people saying "don't you think it's about time you've suffered as well?"  There is no responsibility to protect doctrine.  It shouldn't be expected for, say, the King/Queen of Ferelden to send aid during a Blight to Orlais.  In fact, that's worth noting, considering the other surrounding states did absolutely nothing to help the Orlesian town, either.  If one actor does nothing and is shamed, does that not mean that all actors that did nothing should be shamed as well?
 
Good fences make good neighbors, and all that.  Sometimes it seems nice, then again....

 

In my book, every single living sentient being has a responsibility to help out during a Blight. The Dales didn't. To me that is a moral crime. And moral justice was done when they lost everything.



#190
Dean_the_Young

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Yes, of course, because "everyone from [insert country here] is [insert generalized comment here]" has always worked out well in real-world analogues.  The definition of culture is dependent on its source - do you want the anthropological definition of culture, or the political definition of culture?  Also I feel obligated to point out that a "flaw" in a set of beliefs is based in perspective - what I might say is a good value you might see as bad, or vice versa.'

 

Over-universalization of culture is an issue when expectations are made that every single member of a society believes X and so warrants an action as a consequence: it's shoddy excuse for collective punishment. Under-recognition of culture, however, can be just as disastrous: in not understanding the common and dominant viewpoints that exist in a region, excessive commonalities are perceived between the evaluator and the subject while real and common differences are neglected.

 

On the harmless end of the spectrum, the under-recognition of cultural difference blinds many people to facts like, say, Thedas has no philosophical concept of cultural practice analogous to Western Liberalism. That's just relatively well off westerners (the primary Bioware demographic) judging a fictional midievel setting through 21st century liberalism.

 

On the harmful end of the spectrum, people who expect belief systems be shared or appreciated group together incompatible cultures by drawing poorly thought lines on a map or try to remake distant and different societies to their liking. And of course that has never gone poorly either.

 

 

Of course flaws are a matter of perspective. All evaluations are a matter of perspective. I feel no shame in having a perspective that evaluates, say, a racial narrative that has a highly selective depiction of history to cast a one-sided grievance narrative is a poor basis for a healthy society.

 

As for a working definition of culture, I'm fine with 'the learned and shared behaviors and perceptions of a group which have been transmitted from generation to generation through a shared symbol system' if you are.

 

Collectivization is a term used to refer to collective farming, so I don't really know why this is being brought up in your argument.  I'll assume you meant collectivism, in which case there are reasons people are so opposed to such a mindset.  For one, it stifles individuality, which is why I would never use it when I am arguing for viewing Dalish not as a whole, but as individuals with differing opinions.  There are a million other arguments I could make against it, but I doubt anyone wants to hear me ramble on and on about statism.  Not that statism can apply to the Dalish, as they have no central authority.  Hence why collectivism cannot even apply to the Dalish.  Perhaps you could clarify what you meant?  I don't really grasp what you're getting at.

 

Collectivization is a term I have seen used in a wide range of topis, not just collective farming, but whatevs. You don't want to use collectivism either, though that's probably because you're thinking of it in the statism context. So let's use macro-level and aggregates.

 

Grouping individuals as aggregates is used and useful on macro-level analysis because, for all intents and purposes, individuals don't matter in determining the common, dominant, and accepted viewpoints of a group. It's the collection of lots of individuals, and while each individual of a group doesn't necessarily reflect the views of the entire group the consensus views of the group will be reflected across most of the individuals (or else it wouldn't be a group).

 

The most common western use and reliance of aggregate analysis is the democratic election poll: not every person votes for a particular party, and not every person who does believes all the tenants of the candidate/party they are voting for, but the the candidate with the highest vote is generally regarded as both a legitimate and reliable reflection of the group's accepted (or at least most tolerated/least opposed) interest, with the strength of the voting reflecting the strength of consensus and support.

 

Cultural recognition works in similar ways, and can literally be the difference between life and death if it is ignored or not. In the west, a left handed male offering his hand uninvited to shake a woman's is uncontroversial. In Afghanistan, it can be offense enough to warrant changing position and supporting attacks on the perpetrator. This could be predicted had dominant cultural beliefs been considered and followed: the left-hand being the dominant ****-wiping hand, and the cultural considerations of what is considered respectful to women.

 

Like any type of modeling, it is not and never should be treated as infalible. But modeling off of dominant patterns and trends is a far more reliable way to interact with cultures than not going off of the most common beliefs and practices- and, with awareness and ability, you can further calibrate to adjust to sub-cultures, and then sub-sub-cultures, and so on. The understanding of groups works from the top down, from the most powerful trend setters and dominant belief systems to the least, not the bottom up (where the least relevant beliefs provide the most signal static).

 

 

 

Of course both sides are, to an extent, filled with individuals of such a mindset - I never wrote otherwise.  There's really no such thing as "clean hands" in the Dragon Age universe, now is there?  It doesn't mean you should generalize either side, though.  Especially considering laws change through evolving standards of decency.

 

 

It's when people over-generalize without awareness to the limitations, and when they use their generalizations as justifications for harmful action against a collective, that it gets problematic. Generalizations remain useful, however, and downright necessary when addressing collective groups. Even the concept of 'the Dalish elves' is the use of a generalization.

 

As for the rest, I certainly agree. There are no clean hands: it would also behoove the people involved to realize it as well. The Dalish narrative of history is far too one sided to help: when the dominant Dalish understanding of the fall of the Dales is as a 'betrayal' because of 'religion', while finding any reference to Red Crossing or the Dales (in)action in the previous Blight or any justified human grievance is harder than... well, harder than finding recognition of the other side's grievance, it's not a helpful cultural bias.

 

I have high hopes for Solas to break the mode, though.



#191
Dean_the_Young

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Not that they can really "pay the price," considering neighboring states are not culpable for the events that occur within autonomous regions.  With no culpability there is no crime, and with no crime there is nothing that needs remedied.  Thus, there is no way for the Dales to suffer for others' suffering, unless people see it as "they should have done something."  Which, Thedas isn't exactly a proponent of globalization.  So it's really more a matter of people saying "don't you think it's about time you've suffered as well?"  There is no responsibility to protect doctrine.  It shouldn't be expected for, say, the King/Queen of Ferelden to send aid during a Blight to Orlais.  In fact, that's worth noting, considering the other surrounding states did absolutely nothing to help the Orlesian town, either.  If one actor does nothing and is shamed, does that not mean that all actors that did nothing should be shamed as well?
 
Good fences make good neighbors, and all that.  Sometimes it seems nice, then again....

 

 

I think FDR's fire hose speech would be relevant here. If the Blight conquers Orleans, it spreads to the Dales and fights there next. Even if the danger will hit Orlais first, it is a shared threat and the only way to prevent it from reaching the Dales is to ensure it ends further out. The Dales, didn't. Between helping neighboring humans against a common enemy or risk facing the common enemy alone in the future, they chose to face the common enemy alone. Helping humans against the Blight was considered worse, for whatever reason, than waiting for the Blight to reach them. They were people who, seeing their neighbors house on fire with the blaze coming their way, didn't give water.

 

It's not about globilization or R2P or treaty alliances: it's more about the free-rider problem. Plus, whatever racism issues the Dales had going on (and being a hermit state pursuing a racial purity project, I'm expecting significant ones).



#192
Xilizhra

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What, the first three are somehow ok, so you need to debate the Broodmother detail? Because if the first three aren't ok, then the Broodmother part shouldn't matter.

Well, the darkspawn don't rape anyone they aren't going to turn into broodmothers, so it's really just the first two, and in that case, it's an "enemy of my enemy" scenario. While it may have been strategically unsound, we cannot know what was going through the minds of the Dalish at the time, so I'm somewhat reluctant to condemn them.



#193
Mistic

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It would depend on the protagonist, I suppose. As an elven Inquisitor, I would likely be befuddled as to why Clan Virnehn was dealing with a spirit in the first place, but I'd probably have more of a problem with Celene torching the elves of Halamshiral than with Briala, who seems to genuinely want to have Andrastian and Dalish elves work together to emancipate all the elves. It's why I'd rather work with the elves than with either Celene or Gaspard as an elven protagonist.

 

It's a valid point of view, and you have always liked the pan-elven perspective ;)

 

I, on the other hand, have been thinking about different possible perspectives for my future Dalish Inquisitor. I realized that if we categorize the characters from TME depending on their relationship to the Dalish in particular and not the elves in general, the situation ends up being very different.

 

For example, the Empress killing some rebel elves in Halamshiral is unfortunate, but that's the problem of living with shemlen. The Empress being involved in the complete destruction of a Dalish Clan, however, is unforgivable. The same could be said of Briala. Instead of the pan-elven champion, she is a flat-ear accomplice who betrayed the clan who gave her shelter (remember that the clan in TME accepted her, even if reluctantly) to set the elf-killing Empress free, let a spirit kill the clan, and then steal the Eluvians. Clan Virnehn spent years trying to awaken the mirrors and now that traitor has the gall to say that she claims them "for the elves of Orlais"? In comparison, Gaspard didn't do anything bad to any Dalish, and in fact travelled with one for a time.

 

I'm not saying that it's my favourite point of view, nor that I don't prefer a pan-elven one myself. But it's certainly a Dalish point of view and I would take it into consideration if in-universe we happen to have knowledge of the events in TME.

 

I think FDR's fire hose speech would be relevant here. If the Blight conquers Orleans, it spreads to the Dales and fights there next. Even if the danger will hit Orlais first, it is a shared threat and the only way to prevent it from reaching the Dales is to ensure it ends further out. The Dales, didn't. Between helping neighboring humans against a common enemy or risk facing the common enemy alone in the future, they chose to face the common enemy alone. Helping humans against the Blight was considered worse, for whatever reason, than waiting for the Blight to reach them. They were people who, seeing their neighbors house on fire with the blaze coming their way, didn't give water.

 

It's not about globilization or R2P or treaty alliances: it's more about the free-rider problem. Plus, whatever racism issues the Dales had going on (and being a hermit state pursuing a racial purity project, I'm expecting significant ones).

 

True. Pragmatism should have moved them to act.

 

Also, there's another, very important thing that exists in Thedas but not in our world: the Grey Wardens. Everyone knows what a Blight is capable of. Everyone. If they don't want to hear it, don't worry, the Grey Wardens are there to repeat the story as many times as needed. Truth be told, normally are the Wardens the ones to push the countries into the right direction. The Second Blight was actually a welcome change. Emperor Drakon was smart enough to realize the danger and help by his own volition.



#194
LobselVith8

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It's a valid point of view, and you have always liked the pan-elven perspective ;)

 

I, on the other hand, have been thinking about different possible perspectives for my future Dalish Inquisitor. I realized that if we categorize the characters from TME depending on their relationship to the Dalish in particular and not the elves in general, the situation ends up being very different.

 

For example, the Empress killing some rebel elves in Halamshiral is unfortunate, but that's the problem of living with shemlen. The Empress being involved in the complete destruction of a Dalish Clan, however, is unforgivable. The same could be said of Briala. Instead of the pan-elven champion, she is a flat-ear accomplice who betrayed the clan who gave her shelter (remember that the clan in TME accepted her, even if reluctantly) to set the elf-killing Empress free, let a spirit kill the clan, and then steal the Eluvians. Clan Virnehn spent years trying to awaken the mirrors and now that traitor has the gall to say that she claims them "for the elves of Orlais"? In comparison, Gaspard didn't do anything bad to any Dalish, and in fact travelled with one for a time.

 

I'm not saying that it's my favourite point of view, nor that I don't prefer a pan-elven one myself. But it's certainly a Dalish point of view and I would take it into consideration if in-universe we happen to have knowledge of the events in TME.

 

I understand. There's quite a bit of versatility in how one can play a Dalish elf, and the developers have emphasized player choice in defining the character's views. It's one of the aspects about RPGs that I find quite enjoyable - creating your own person (and potentially your own background) to take on numerous journeys, instead of playing as a pre-defined character with motivations and interests you have no control over. It's why I liked the elven mage so much - I was able to choose where he was born, how he viewed the Circle, which Fraternity he aligned with, his view on blood magic, whether he saw the darkspawn as a "dwarven problem" (which, unfortunately, seems to be the norm among many people of Thedads) or a serious threat, and so on. I'm hoping there is some freedom to do the same with the Inquisitor as well.

 

Having the opportunity to play as a Dalish elf, including a mage, seems like it might be a lot of fun. You're a member of a society who refused to compromise your ideals or your religion, you have traveled across the breadth of Thedas, and you're privy to secrets that no one else is even aware of. There's not even touching on what the relationship is between the People and Asha'bellanar. Given Morrigan's presence in Inquisition (and her welcome reception among Ariane's clan, to the point of being allowed to look over one of their important tomes) it might give us a chance to uncover even more information.

 

It's a bit of a unique circumstance as well, in comparison to the other backgrounds - you're a member of an ostracized culture who ends up becoming the leader of religiously Andrastian soldiers and you're viewed as some sort of religious figure among some people, despite the vallaslin on your face marking your faith in another religion that's banned by the Chantry. What will you say to people, especially elves, who view you as some sort of holy figure? How do you view the Mage-Templar War as a mage, especially if the conflict doesn't impact the People directly? How will you respond to Cole, given the view that all spirits are dangerous? How is it going to be, to be separated from your friends and family - all of your people - and are now surrounded by soldiers who would have hunted you down prior to the cataclysm that lead to you becoming their Inquisitor?

 

Should be a lot of fun, regardless of which way you want to handle your elven Inquisitor. Assuming Mihris encounters the elven protagonist's clan, perhaps that might lead to your character being provided with information about what happened to Clan Virnehn?



#195
Kingthlayer

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I'd like to see a new one, just so I can kill more Elves.  It's become a thing in Dragon Age games, being able to wipe out Dalish clans.


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#196
XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX

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Why is wiping out Dalish clans necessarily are bad thing? sometimes dangerous animals need culled if they get out of control

#197
Mistic

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I understand. There's quite a bit of versatility in how one can play a Dalish elf, and the developers have emphasized player choice in defining the character's views. It's one of the aspects about RPGs that I find quite enjoyable - creating your own person (and potentially your own background) to take on numerous journeys, instead of playing as a pre-defined character with motivations and interests you have no control over. It's why I liked the elven mage so much - I was able to choose where he was born, how he viewed the Circle, which Fraternity he aligned with, his view on blood magic, whether he saw the darkspawn as a "dwarven problem" (which, unfortunately, seems to be the norm among many people of Thedads) or a serious threat, and so on. I'm hoping there is some freedom to do the same with the Inquisitor as well.

 

Yeah, one of the best things of Dragon Age: Origins was, actually, the origins themselves. They were a great help for roleplaying the characters. Before the main plot started (the Blight, Ostagar, build an army...), we could set what our characters thought about issues related to their world, their attitude, parts of their past, etc. Within some limits, of course. I don't like The Elder Scrolls completely blank characters, even if I love their world. I always end up feeling like a tourist in Tamriel instead of a citizen.

 

So yeah, the question about which clan the Dalish Inquisitor is from is a necessary one. A dead clan is just a motive for revenge. A clan that is alive could be visited.

 

It's a bit of a unique circumstance as well, in comparison to the other backgrounds - you're a member of an ostracized culture who ends up becoming the leader of religiously Andrastian soldiers and you're viewed as some sort of religious figure among some people, despite the vallaslin on your face marking your faith in another religion that's banned by the Chantry. What will you say to people, especially elves, who view you as some sort of holy figure? How do you view the Mage-Templar War as a mage, especially if the conflict doesn't impact the People directly? How will you respond to Cole, given the view that all spirits are dangerous? How is it going to be, to be separated from your friends and family - all of your people - and are now surrounded by soldiers who would have hunted you down prior to the cataclysm that lead to you becoming their Inquisitor?

 

Those are the things I'm looking forward to. I think there's some morbidity in my intention to play a Dalish Mage at first. But it doesn't mean it will be my favourite playthrough. I really want to play as a Qunari, and a Dwarf, and maybe a Circle Mage too. That who ends up feeling more satisfying will become my personal canon.

 

Given what developers have said, I don't think being Dalish would be much of an issue, at least not among your companions and soldiers. The end of the world is nigh, you don't want to be picky about your saviour. The same as in a Blight, actually. Even the Chantry has a justification for Grey Wardens. The Maker "smiles sadly on his Grey Wardens, as no sacrifice is greater than theirs". So I think that even a Dalish Inquisitor would be declared to be a good Andrastian and servant of the Maker's will by the powers that be. Said Inquisitor's opinion notwhitstanding.

 

Should be a lot of fun, regardless of which way you want to handle your elven Inquisitor. Assuming Mihris encounters the elven protagonist's clan, perhaps that might lead to your character being provided with information about what happened to Clan Virnehn?

 

I'm not sure about meeting Mihris in DA:I. Michel seems to have more options. I may be wrong, though. However, I think it's more likely for us to hear it from other sources, like codex entries or some Dalish leaders. You know, like when Tali explained in ME2 why the Quarians hated Cerberus so much (the book Ascension).



#198
Dean_the_Young

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Also, there's another, very important thing that exists in Thedas but not in our world: the Grey Wardens. Everyone knows what a Blight is capable of. Everyone. If they don't want to hear it, don't worry, the Grey Wardens are there to repeat the story as many times as needed. Truth be told, normally are the Wardens the ones to push the countries into the right direction. The Second Blight was actually a welcome change. Emperor Drakon was smart enough to realize the danger and help by his own volition.

 

I still like the idea that Emperor Drakon was a player character concept for a  prequel idea.



#199
Mistic

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I still like the idea that Emperor Drakon was a player character concept for a  prequel idea.

 

Kordillus Drakon is a fascinating character. I suppose many won't forgive him for creating the Chantry, but he's one of those people who really changed the world.

 

I hope we'll know more of him in DA:I. I mean, under Drakon the Orlesian Empire was established, the Chantry was created, and the Inquisition signed the Nevarran Accord. So if we don't find more lore about Drakon in a game called 'Inquisition' that is set in Orlais during the Mage-Templar war, I will be disappointed.



#200
A Clever Name

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Spoiler

Ah, now I see where you were going.  Thank you - I've had collective farming on the brain and apparently I couldn't work my head around the term collectivization being used otherwise.  I think we simply argue this from a different perspective, as at heart I am an individualist.  Of course I do not begrudge you thinking differently, and you do make valid points in your argument that I agree with.  I have to wonder if we'll get the opportunity to change the mindset of the Dalish a bit in this game.  I doubt anything significant, but I still think it would be refreshing to see the People move away from an old hatred and accept that things have changed.

 

Unfortunately Solas is not Dalish, which made me very sad-face.  D:  At the very least he could give some insight on them, since he's apparently met Dalish in his travels.  He sounds super interesting though, right?

In my book, every single living sentient being has a responsibility to help out during a Blight. The Dales didn't. To me that is a moral crime. And moral justice was done when they lost everything.

I'm sorry you feel that way.  An eye for an eye sounds nice, but it never stops at the eye, does it?

 

I think FDR's fire hose speech would be relevant here. If the Blight conquers Orleans, it spreads to the Dales and fights there next. Even if the danger will hit Orlais first, it is a shared threat and the only way to prevent it from reaching the Dales is to ensure it ends further out. The Dales, didn't. Between helping neighboring humans against a common enemy or risk facing the common enemy alone in the future, they chose to face the common enemy alone. Helping humans against the Blight was considered worse, for whatever reason, than waiting for the Blight to reach them. They were people who, seeing their neighbors house on fire with the blaze coming their way, didn't give water.

 

It's not about globilization or R2P or treaty alliances: it's more about the free-rider problem. Plus, whatever racism issues the Dales had going on (and being a hermit state pursuing a racial purity project, I'm expecting significant ones).

Very true.  Their lack of movement was silly on their behalf, considering the threat is not to a single state but to all.  I think it was another one of those situations where they didn't want to help humans due to their prejudices following enslavement by the Imperium.  Maybe they saw it as something the humans caused (I believe the Dalish blame humans for the Blight), and thus viewed it as a human problem.  Or they were hoping for a terrible fate for Orlais, which is equally possible - let their neighboring state and the most immediate threat to their borders weaken.  I would say it most likely that the last was their reasoning, but maybe that's just the states-as-rational-actors and my inner skepticism talking.  Any of the options are possible, and possibly all could be given as explanation as well.  It doesn't excuse the fact that they did nothing, but it gives some reason to why they did it.  Hatred blinds all parties to basic human decency.