231 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'm sorry you feel that way.  An eye for an eye sounds nice, but it never stops at the eye, does it?

I don't know. It seems to have stopped neatly at the destruction of the Dales.

[Mistic]

Unfortunately Solas is not Dalish, which made me very sad-face.  D:  At the very least he could give some insight on them, since he's apparently met Dalish in his travels.  He sounds super interesting though, right?

 

Solas has met Dalish? Where did it appear? Damn, these days it seems that I'm always late to the party.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way.  An eye for an eye sounds nice, but it never stops at the eye, does it?

 

Agreed. If we had to punish every person and organization that didn't help during a Blight, the list would be long:

-The Orzammar Assembly. While darkspawn were destroying the empire, the houses were fighting against each other for power. Aeducan had to make a coup d'etat to save the city.

-The Tevinter Imperium. Abandoned the Anderfels during the Second Blight, refused to aid the Free Marches during the Third until the Wardens pressured them, and didn't send help during the Fourth.

-The Dales. Didn't help Orlais during the Second.

-The Orlesian Empire. Refused to aid the Free Marches during the Third until the Wardens pressured them and only sent a token force during the Fourth.

 

And let's not talk about what happened in Ferelden.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In my book, every single living sentient being has a responsibility to help out during a Blight. The Dales didn't. To me that is a moral crime. And moral justice was done when they lost everything.

 

Just because the Dales chose to do something horrible by letting Montsimmard burn doesn't mean that 95 years later the entire elven people deserve to be crushed, ethnically cleansed from their homes and oppressed for 600 years. That's insane. It doesn't punish any of the guilty parties from the first crime. By that logic every nation and all it's inhabitants deserved to be burned to the ground.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Just because the Dales chose to do something horrible by letting Montsimmard burn doesn't mean that 95 years later the entire elven people deserve to be crushed, ethnically cleansed from their homes and oppressed for 600 years. That's insane. It doesn't punish any of the guilty parties from the first crime. By that logic every nation and all it's inhabitants deserved to be burned to the ground.

They chose to let the world burn. And the punishment was not of the individuals, but of the nation.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

They chose to let the world burn. And the punishment was not of the individuals, but of the nation.

 

That very premise of a morally bankrupt notion. It's like all the people here who want to subjugate Orlais and give it to Ferelden to making up for all the Orlesian Imperialism.

[EmperorSahlertz]

That very premise of a morally bankrupt notion. It's like all the people here who want to subjugate Orlais and give it to Ferelden to making up for all the Orlesian Imperialism.

Except that Orlais has not proven themselves a danger to the entire world by their continued existence. The Dales did.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Except that Orlais has not proven themselves a danger to the entire world by their continued existence. The Dales did.

 

The Orlais was actively attacking other nations in the world. That's worse than just not helping.

 

EDIT: And even if it wasn't, it's not the very existence of the Dales that threatens the world. It's absurd to suggest that it was. If anything destroying the Dales made it worse. Now there are few powers that are able to help in the case of future blights.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Orlais was actively attacking other nations in the world. That's worse than just not helping.

 

EDIT: And even if it wasn't, it's not the very existence of the Dales that threatens the world.

Orlais was not attacking any nations at the time of the Second Blight, so that is a load of bullshit...

 

And the Dales refused to help during the Second Blight, that means at best they are neutrals, and at worst they are supportive of the Darkspawn. The Dales went completely untouched by the Second Blight. ALL other areas of Thedas was touched by the Second Blight. Darkspawn don't skip areas.

 

Furthermore the Dales, more or less motivated, later attacks the single most contributing faction to the ending fo the Second Blight, Orlais. The Dales were a threat to every living being on Thedas as a result fo their actions.

[Mistic]

Except that Orlais has not proven themselves a danger to the entire world by their continued existence. The Dales did.

 

If you are talking about the Dales not helping during the Second Blight, remember that Orlais did the same twice, just not in the same Blight (see my previous post). Doesn't it mean that Orlais has proved that its continued existence is a danger to the world?

 

The answer is 'no', of course. The Orlesians were the heroes during the Second Blight, they came around in the Third in the end and during the Fifth Blight Celene was more than willing to help Ferelden. People can learn to do better. In fact, that's what the Dalish did: the treaties that we find in DA:O are proof that the Dalish learned long ago that during a Blight you have to help.

[EmperorSahlertz]

If you are talking about the Dales not helping during the Second Blight, remember that Orlais did the same twice, just not in the same Blight (see my previous post). Doesn't it mean that Orlais has proved that its continued existence is a danger to the world?

 

The answer is 'no', of course. The Orlesians were the heroes during the Second Blight, they came around in the Third in the end and during the Fifth Blight Celene was more than willing to help Ferelden. People can learn to do better. In fact, that's what the Dalish did: the treaties that we find in DA:O are proof that the Dalish learned long ago that during a Blight you have to help.

Except that Orlais has actually helped in EVERY Blight... Except the Fifth in which they were ACTIVELY being prevented from helping.

 

During the third both Tevinter and Orlais delayed aiding because they had to reinforce their own borders first. Not being able to help, is not the same as sending an armed and ready army to WATCH as a city is devoured by Darkspawn.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Orlais was not attacking any nations at the time of the Second Blight, so that is a load of bullshit...

 

And the Dales refused to help during the Second Blight, that means at best they are neutrals, and at worst they are supportive of the Darkspawn. The Dales went completely untouched by the Second Blight, they ALL other areas of Thedas was touched by the Second Blight. Darkspawn don't skip areas.

 

Furthermore the Dales, more or less motivated, later attacks the single most contributing faction to the ending fo the Second Blight, Orlais. The Dales were a threat to every living being on Thedas as a result fo their actions.

 

1) I didn't mean during the Second Blight, I meant in general.

 

2) To suggest the Dales were supporting the darkspawn is lunacy of the highest degree.

 

3) Shirking duty against the darkspawn does not constitute being "a threat to every living being on Thedas". It just means they are being shortsighted and criminally irresponsible. But suggesting that attacking Orlais (which I should add is absolutely not confirmed because WoT is ambiguous as to who started the fighting) AFTER a Blight is over makes them a threat to the whole world is even sillier. To suggest that being against Orlais is somehow helping the darkspawn is just...what?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Except that Orlais has actually helped in EVERY Blight... Except the Fifth in which they were ACTIVELY being prevented from helping.

 

During the third both Tevinter and Orlais delayed aiding because they had to reinforce their own borders first. Not being able to help, is not the same as sending an armed and ready army to WATCH as a city is devoured by Darkspawn.

 

After securing their own borders both Tevinter and Orlais refused to help the rest of the world for years. It was not until the Grey Warden's pressured them into it that they sent help, and even then only to conquer the Free Marches.

 

During the Fourth Blight both Tevinter and Orlais were not attacked by any great number of darkspawn and both still did not send any real aid. Orlais sent only "token" forces to fight the darkspawn. Garahel was only able to get an army of wardens to help him.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ah, now I see where you were going.  Thank you - I've had collective farming on the brain and apparently I couldn't work my head around the term collectivization being used otherwise.  I think we simply argue this from a different perspective, as at heart I am an individualist.  Of course I do not begrudge you thinking differently, and you do make valid points in your argument that I agree with.  I have to wonder if we'll get the opportunity to change the mindset of the Dalish a bit in this game.  I doubt anything significant, but I still think it would be refreshing to see the People move away from an old hatred and accept that things have changed.

 

 

No problem. The disagreement was civil and remained productive.

 

 

 

Unfortunately Solas is not Dalish, which made me very sad-face.  D:  At the very least he could give some insight on them, since he's apparently met Dalish in his travels.  He sounds super interesting though, right?

 

He's not? Huh. I knew he was an intellectual and didn't cling to dogma or any obvious historic narrative, but I hadn't heard that he wasn't considered Dalish.
 

 

I'm sorry you feel that way.  An eye for an eye sounds nice, but it never stops at the eye, does it?

 

Sure. After the second time.
 

 

Very true.  Their lack of movement was silly on their behalf, considering the threat is not to a single state but to all.  I think it was another one of those situations where they didn't want to help humans due to their prejudices following enslavement by the Imperium.  Maybe they saw it as something the humans caused (I believe the Dalish blame humans for the Blight), and thus viewed it as a human problem.  Or they were hoping for a terrible fate for Orlais, which is equally possible - let their neighboring state and the most immediate threat to their borders weaken.  I would say it most likely that the last was their reasoning, but maybe that's just the states-as-rational-actors and my inner skepticism talking.  Any of the options are possible, and possibly all could be given as explanation as well.  It doesn't excuse the fact that they did nothing, but it gives some reason to why they did it.  Hatred blinds all parties to basic human decency.

 

 

In all honesty? I think the most likely reasoning was because they feared compromising their cultural purity and re-quickening if they interacted with humans at any level. Not because they blamed Orlais humans for the blight, or strategic zero-sum thinking, or even animosity.

 

What little we know of the Dales is that they were trying to regain their culture, and in the pursuit of that the leaders turned the Dales into a hermit state. The implicit goal I read for that, and the only unifying motivation for the Dales overall policies that makes sense in the context of it, was immortality. And if your goal is something that you believe was lost by interaction with humans...

 

It makes sense, even if I condemn it as bloody stupid and shortsighted. And extremely prone to totalitarianism in the execution thereof.

[EmperorSahlertz]

1) I didn't mean during the Second Blight, I meant in general.

 

2) To suggest the Dales were supporting the darkspawn is lunacy of the highest degree. Not every region of the world gets notable

 

3) Shirking duty against the darkspawn does not constitute being "a threat to every living being on Thedas". It just means they are being shortsighted and criminally irresponsible. But suggesting that attacking Orlais (which I should add is absolutely not confirmed because WoT is ambiguous as to who started the fighting) AFTER a Blight is over makes them a threat to the whole world is even sillier. To suggest that being against Orlais is somehow helping the darkspawn is just...what?

1) War amongst nation is not a world threatening thing. On the contrary it actually keeps the armies combat ready, and capable of handling the real threat of the Darkspawn.

 

2) Except that only the island nations were left untouched by the Second Blight... Oh... And the Dales... Their neutrality was certainly most fortuitous.

 

3) WoT is very clear on what started the war. The Elves attacked Red Crossing and Orlais responded. What WoT isn't clear about is what started the friction BEFORE the war. Though I am sure that the Dales leaving Montsimmard to be pillaged and burned by Darkspawn wasn't exactly endearing them to Orlais.

 

If the Dales had won agaisnt Orlais, Orlais would not ahve been a factor in future Blights, and the Dales would probably have continued their "neutrality", which would spell doom and death for the rest of Thedas.

[EmperorSahlertz]

After securing their own borders both Tevinter and Orlais refused to help the rest of the world for years. It was not until the Grey Warden's pressured them into it that they sent help, and even then only to conquer the Free Marches.

 

During the Fourth Blight both Tevinter and Orlais were not attacked by any great number of darkspawn and both still did not send any real aid. Orlais sent only "token" forces to fight the darkspawn. Garahel was only able to get an army of wardens to help him.

And yet even during the Fourth Blight both Orlais and Tevinter STILL fought agaisnt the Darkpsawn, within their own borders. Which is more than the Dales ever did.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

1) War amongst nation is not a world threatening thing. On the contrary it actually keeps the armies combat ready, and capable of handling the real threat of the Darkspawn.

 

2) Except that only the island nations were left untouched by the Second Blight... Oh... And the Dales... Their neutrality was certainly most fortuitous.

 

3) WoT is very clear on what started the war. The Elves attacked Red Crossing and Orlais responded. What WoT isn't clear about is what started the friction BEFORE the war. Though I am sure that the Dales leaving Montsimmard to be pillaged and burned by Darkspawn wasn't exactly endearing them to Orlais.

 

If the Dales had won agaisnt Orlais, Orlais would not ahve been a factor in future Blights, and the Dales would probably have continued their "neutrality", which would spell doom and death for the rest of Thedas.

 

1) What? It also depletes armies by when nations kill eachother's manpower. This makes them weaker.

 

2) There is no mention of the darkspawn in Antiva or Rivain in the Second Blight either or the Third. There is no record of darkspawn in Ferelden during the Third or Fourth Blight. Even in the First Blight it was many decades before the darkspawn ever reached the Ferelden Valley. In the Third Blight even the long suffering Anderfels were spared. Not every nation is ravaged by darkspawn during Blights.

 

3) Border skirmishes count as fighting. It's more than just tension. And by the same token, if you dismiss the earliest fighting as not being part of the war, then why include the attack on Red Crossing. That could just as easily have been a raid that wasn't intended to start a war either.

 

Orlais wasn't a deciding factor in all future Blights anyway, and saying the Dales would have continued to be neutral is baseless speculation. Because one nation was or was not helpful in one blight doesn't mean they will continue to be so in another.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

And yet even during the Fourth Blight both Orlais and Tevinter STILL fought agaisnt the Darkpsawn, within their own borders. Which is more than the Dales ever did.

 

That's because they were (feebly) attacked.That says literally nothing about how willing they were to help out during the Blight. Are you suggesting the Dales would have just let the darkpsawn just kill them if they were attacked?

[LobselVith8]

Yeah, one of the best things of Dragon Age: Origins was, actually, the origins themselves. They were a great help for roleplaying the characters. Before the main plot started (the Blight, Ostagar, build an army...), we could set what our characters thought about issues related to their world, their attitude, parts of their past, etc. Within some limits, of course. I don't like The Elder Scrolls completely blank characters, even if I love their world. I always end up feeling like a tourist in Tamriel instead of a citizen.

 

So yeah, the question about which clan the Dalish Inquisitor is from is a necessary one. A dead clan is just a motive for revenge. A clan that is alive could be visited.

 

While the developers said there won't be any origins, I'm hoping for a similar prelude that will allow the player to shape who their protagonist is. Is this someone who is bitter like Sarel because of a personal loss? Is this someone who is more unorthodox like Merrill? Is this someone who has suffered unspeakable horrors at the hands of the shemlen, but has brought themselves back from the brink like Lanaya? I'd prefer to see the protagonist allowed some input in deciding who this person is, and what motivates this person.

 

Those are the things I'm looking forward to. I think there's some morbidity in my intention to play a Dalish Mage at first. But it doesn't mean it will be my favourite playthrough. I really want to play as a Qunari, and a Dwarf, and maybe a Circle Mage too. That who ends up feeling more satisfying will become my personal canon.

 

I'm interested in a Dwarven and Vashoth run as well (I had a lot of fun with a Dwarven Noble during the Origin alone), but I have to admit I'm not particularly fond of playing as an Andrastian human. The culture and the faith don't interest me, and I can't immerse myself as someone who follows the Andrastian faith as a mage, which is a class I favor in the Dragon Age universe for many reasons. I played my Surana Warden as an atheist, and I had trouble with some of Hawke's dialogue as a result. Dalish culture interests me much more, and I see some similarities to Taino culture as well, which I like for personal reasons.

 

Given what developers have said, I don't think being Dalish would be much of an issue, at least not among your companions and soldiers. The end of the world is nigh, you don't want to be picky about your saviour. The same as in a Blight, actually. Even the Chantry has a justification for Grey Wardens. The Maker "smiles sadly on his Grey Wardens, as no sacrifice is greater than theirs". So I think that even a Dalish Inquisitor would be declared to be a good Andrastian and servant of the Maker's will by the powers that be. Said Inquisitor's opinion notwhitstanding.

 

I'm guessing surviving at the site of the Urn of Sacred Ashes is the gateway for the non-human protagonist to wield such power, and have influence with people, particularly those who may see this figure wrapped in some religious symbolism as the lone survivor. However, I would like the elven protagonist to have an elven perspective - I'd prefer to say 'Beyond' instead of 'Fade', 'Eternal City' instead of 'Golden City', and the like. I'd hate to feel as though I'm merely playing as a re-skinned Andrastian human, when being a Dalish in charge of a plethora of Andrastians should be a rather unique experience (as should the other racial options embracing the role of Inquisitor).

 

I'm not sure about meeting Mihris in DA:I. Michel seems to have more options. I may be wrong, though. However, I think it's more likely for us to hear it from other sources, like codex entries or some Dalish leaders. You know, like when Tali explained in ME2 why the Quarians hated Cerberus so much (the book Ascension).

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Michel appeared. I suppose that could be one way for the elven protagonist to learn about what happened to Halamshiral, and about Briala's efforts to liberate the elves of Orlais; it can also be an opportunity to shape our relationships with members of the tribe. I wouldn't mind seeing a changed Mihris, however. I keep getting this feeling that it's going to be a bit of a lonely existence as an elven Inquisitor, given how there's no one else who really understands what it's like to be Dalish.

[EmperorSahlertz]

That's because they were (feebly) attacked.That says literally nothing about how willing they were to help out during the Blight. Are you suggesting the Dales would have just let the darkpsawn just kill them if they were attacked?

Oh no I am sure that the Elves would defend themselves if attacked. It is the rest of the world they would let burn. Which makes them a liability.

 

And regarding one of your previous points: No. Border skirmishes does NOT count as war. That is why it is called border skirmishes and not war. Border skirmishes happened(/happens) all the time without it leading to open warfare. But sometimes push comes to shove and war breaks out. And thus I give you Red Crossing. The Elves started the war with that attack, no matter their intentions.

[MisterJB]

The Orlais was actively attacking other nations in the world. That's worse than just not helping.

 

EDIT: And even if it wasn't, it's not the very existence of the Dales that threatens the world. It's absurd to suggest that it was. If anything destroying the Dales made it worse. Now there are few powers that are able to help in the case of future blights.

As a nation of non-Andrasteans, the Dales was activelly preventing the return of the Maker.

Thus, that makes them an ally of the Darkspawn.

[Hellion Rex]

As a nation of non-Andrasteans, the Dales was activelly preventing the return of the Maker.

Thus, that makes them an ally of the Darkspawn.

BURN THE HERETICS!

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Oh no I am sure that the Elves would defend themselves if attacked. It is the rest of the world they would let burn. Which makes them a liability.

 

Then why did you bring up Orlais and Tevinter doing nothing but defend their own borders as an example of them being better? Other nations have been content to let the world burn too.

 

And regarding one of your previous points: No. Border skirmishes does NOT count as war. That is why it is called border skirmishes and not war. Border skirmishes happened(/happens) all the time without it leading to open warfare. But sometimes push comes to shove and war breaks out. And thus I give you Red Crossing. The Elves started the war with that attack, no matter their intentions.

 

The entire point of you bringing up the war between the Dales and Orlais was to claim the Dales are a threat to every living thing in Thedas because they tried to attack and destroy Orlais and thus prevent them from stopping future Blights. Even if that weren't already an enormous leap in logic, if the elves weren't trying to start a war by attacking Red Crossing, then they were trying to do what you claim they were. It means it would have been a war of chosen by Orlais.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Then why did you bring up Orlais and Tevinter doing nothing but defend their own borders as an example of them being better? Other nations have been content to let the world burn too.

Patently false since every other nation has actually fought Darkspawn.