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Constructive Criticism Of The Demos


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#1
Bayonet Hipshot

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So I just thought I would post my criticisms on the two demos that we have been shown so far. These are my criticisms, I hope that they are constructive in nature and helps in giving a proper feedback.

 

1) The miscellaneous quest / fetch quest. In the first demo, we see a bereaved woman whose husband was evidently killed by templars and his wedding ring was stolen from his body. 

 

Did anyone notice how weird that whole quest played out ? There was a severe lack of proper interaction between the quest giving NPC and the playable character, our female Qunari mage. There was no greetings, no consoling, no options to investigate more, nothing of the sort.

 

It was as if the woman saw the Inquisitor and said "Right, you will get my ring for me because you look important." to which you the Inquisitor reply "Okay, goodbye." and just left. That was really weird and awkward. People do not interact in that manner. We start off by greeting one another, asking what is wrong, asking further details, giving some emotionally supportive lines and then we say goodbye.I mean the was no further probing on where did the Templars who killed her husband went, when did she last saw them, etc. Nothing. 

 

If anything, that fetch quest reminds me of the horrendous Mass Effect 3's fetch quests where you just overhear what people say, go across the galaxy, do fancy scanning and then give the item to the people back. This one is slightly less worse.

 

I hope something is done to change that. 

 

2) Wild animals. The bear encounter. Now this being next-gen, I perhaps expected something more than just hack, slash, magic to kill the bears. I thought we could have dynamic and intelligent animal behavior. 

 

By this I mean we could perhaps have the option to scare wild animals off. This is what many people do in real life, primarily using fire. So perhaps a mage could cast the Wall of Fire to scare the bear off.

 

Alternatively, animals, when attacked sufficiently and when they know they are not winning this fight, will run away. Basic fight or flight situation. I thought if we just attacked the bear a bit, we could chase it off or something ? 

 

Then there is what happened when the bear is dead. We just left it there. I mean, the Hinterland is embroiled in a war, food must be scarce and the least we could do is perhaps harvest the carcass for meat and pelts and give them away to the local populace or use it for the Inquisition. 

 

3) Dragons. As I understand it, dragons in Thedas are not, say, like dragons in Tamriel. Dragons in Thedas are wild beasts, not highly intelligent beings.

 

The thing with wild beasts is that they act in a certain manner. Most wild beasts keep to themselves, away from humans. Most wild beasts do not attack unless they are provoked.

 

Which then raises a question ? What is the reason to kill the dragons ? They are not doing anything bad. The ones in the demo are nesting in an outskirt / wild area and generally minding their own business. Even the one in DA:O did not attack you at all unless you provoked  / called it using the horn. 

 

Is there any story reason to kill them ? Or is it just honor, glory and powerful materials to make items from ? Just wondering about it. The main big bad in this game is demons so dragons are not our enemy. They are certainly not the purpose the Inquisition is re-founded. 

 

4) Leliana. First, the torture scene. It was nothing and I mean nothing like a torture scene. There was absolutely no signs of torture on Leliana. She was with her full armor and her face was clean ! She even had her lip gloss on ! That is not how torture works ! This game has a mature rating for a reason but we are not getting a mature content. 

 

Then there is how she killed the Venatori torturer. The man was wearing heavy armor with heavy helmet. I challenge you to find anyone who can squeeze freaking metallic helmet and break the neck of the heavy armor wearer with their thighs.

 

The whole scene was highly and I mean highly unrealistic. It was facepalm-worthy. For a kids animation series, perhaps that might have passed as a torture scene but for a mature role playing game ? Nope.

 

Then, she gets up, gets her weapons and tells Dorian and the Inquisitor to stuff it. Isn't Leliana our adviser ? I am pretty sure while we asked her to infiltrate the castle, Leliana herself willingly went to do this. So why the sour grapes ? Why the bitchy attitude ? Dorian did not do anything to her. She just followed the orders a leader gave. The order and the plan did not work out so well apparently as she seems surprised that we were alive but again, that is the reality of command, no ? I am pretty sure Leliana took the mission knowing full well what the risks are. She is an experienced infiltrator, no ? 

 

Plus, the whole line about mages. Didn't she realize that she is being rescued by two mages ? Talk about being foolish. 

 

Then there is the part with Alexius. Laidlaw clearly states during the demo that having Dorian opens up options. We the observer can see this as well. Dorian was talking to Alexius, Alexius was showing signs of regret, the Inquisitor was asking for the amulet while promising to let Alexius & Felix go....Then in comes Leliana who slashes Felix's throat and starts the fight.

 

A fight which in my opinion, could have been avoided if Leliana did not act out of line. The Inquisitor gave no such orders to her. We did not see the Inquisitor asking Leliana to execute Felix. She is our adviser isn't she, not something else ?

 

What was that about choices ? Seriously, I thought that whole debacle with Alexius could have been settled diplomatically with Dorian there. Leliana just ruined that.

 

After the fight is over, we then send two of our four companions out to hold the enemy forces off. I would have liked to switch to Iron Bull and Sera, fighting the Venatori forces and demons, holding them off, like we did in DA:O on our way to fight the Archdemon in Denerim.

 

That would have been fantastic. However, nothing of the sort happened.

 

Then we get Leliana getting all badass on us telling that  we have as much time as she has arrows and then we have a cutscene where she goes on to valiantly fight the enemy off and then whack them with a wooden bow ? Whacking a heavily armored soldier with a wooden bow ? 

 

That cutscene was, in my opinion, entirely unnecessary. We could have actually have the option to instead play as Leliana, taking command of her and let her fight the demonic forces off. She is an Orlesian bard who has been through the Blight with the Warden and worked as the Hand of the Divine right ? Surely we could have actually played as her and if we are not skilled enough, she loses and the whole scene of her being captured takes place. 

 

Which is something that is quite similar to the scene with Anora, Cautherien and the Warden at Arl Howe's Estate. The fight was optional but if you were skilled, you could power through and gotten out of there. There was no need for a cutscene. 

 

I would have preferred to have more agency as a player as well have my choices matter. Leliana in the demo practically destroyed those two options completely. 

 

So here are my criticisms on the demo. Personally, my biggest criticism is on Leliana and the fetch quest that were shown. The rest was suggestions. 

 

Thoughts and comments ? I would like the discussion to remain civil. 

 

Cheers.  B)


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#2
raz3rkun

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In all honesty I dont think it is fair to criticise a demo (especially the part with leliana and alexius) without having an idea of the context and choices made previous to the playthrough we have seen! I am personally not going to dissect the story elements too much mainly due to the variables we are presented with in the game(s). Will leave most of that once the game is released :) (which is too far away :( )!
As for the fetch quest I never really thought about it in much detail but its a valid point! I believe it being a demo they wanted something to grab attention more than going for outright 'realism'! However saying that I do hope the final release will add a touch more immersion to those optional conversational quests!
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#3
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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I think there are definitely things to criticize, but you're being overly critical. I don't think a LESS cinematic dialog system is a bad thing at all, we don't have to be jerked into the cinematic cam every time.

 

The animals stuff is way, way over the top. You could come up with unrealistically reactive AI for every single game, doesn't mean it's feasible.

 

Seriously? You're not even asking about a problem with the gameplay, you're asking about a problem with the mindset of the universe. This has nothing to do with the demo, and everything to do with Dragon Age in general. For all we know dragons are causing havoc.

 

First, please stop playing the "mature" buzzword, it's nonsense. Second, yes it's very silly for a torture scene. Very silly. But why would you be expecting more from Bioware? They've never been into particularly "gore-ish" portrayals of characters.


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#4
Myala

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If you watch the demo again there is an option to have Leliana let him go. It was one the left side of the wheel. Maybe it had to do with Dorian being there similar to companions inputs were on the left side in previous games.

#5
Enigmatick

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I mostly agree with just about everything you said although it was fairly obvious they choose the option that would result in a boss fight on purpose.


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#6
SurelyForth

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I think the "fetch quest" convo mechanic is a thing they implemented as a sort of halfway point between full on cutscenes for a basic exchange of information and those"I overheard these people while I was on the Citadel..." type quests. I'm pretty sure you can converse, but you also have the option to simply walk away if you want.

 

And I am a-ok without scenes of graphic torture, especially of a woman who is already a sexual assault survivor. Besides, this isn't a game with actors who can quickly change clothes between scenes- if they wanted to model Leliana in various stages of being "realistically tortured" they'd have to take those resources from elsewhere (and they have to be careful to avoid it coming off like torture porn). Personally, I'd rather their time and energy go pretty much anywhere but making characters look realistically bloodied and abused, M rating or no.


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#7
Sekou

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1) I don't think they were interested in showing all the interactions for that minor quest. The point, from my perspective, was to demonstrate that not all intersections result in a cut away. The content was superfluous within the context of a demo.

2) meh. They're bears and they're walking XP. Kill to level. Nuance would be nice but it doesn't bother me.

3) see point 2. Dragons=great, glorious gobs of XP. And loot. Wonderful, fantastic loot. /drool

4) we have zero context for what we were shown, no underlying understanding of party dynamics and past history, if any, tween Dorian and Leliana.

As for the torture scene, your's (and others) is the one complaint I've seen made that holds some merit. That being said, she was being held captive by mages. Methinks they could infiltrate her mind and torture scar it far more greatly than any scary iron implement beaten upon her person could.
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#8
EnduinRaylene

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Points 1 & 4 I agree with to some extent.

 

1: I really only disliked the way in which the Inquisitor just left "Ok, Bye" after this lady told a heartbreaking tale. Some kind of choice for acknowledgement is necessary. Whether it's kind of not is up to the player, but simply walking away like you just talked about the weather isn't at all good.

 

2. Not really much to go on here, it was just a quick bear fight to highlight the animal aspect of the world and interaction in DAI, we really don't know anything about their behaviors or what we can or cannot do with them. Even if what the demo showed is all that's to it, it's not such a huge part of the game to really warrant that much attention and realistic simulation. It's an interesting addition that's meant to make the large open world feel more inhabited when you aren't fighting actual baddies.

 

3. Dragon are apex predators, they may not be super smart, but they aren't dumb either and in Thedas they do attack people. They don't just chill and roost and not harm anyone, they go out and hunt people and livestock. I'm sure there will be more to it than just "ooh a dragon lets kill it and chop it to bits to make boots."

 

4: You could argue that Leliana was being tortured by mages so they wouldn't need to physically beat her or take off her armor and clothes, since they would be using spells like Horror and Crushing Prison on her, but yeah they way she is presented isn't very "I've been here for a while getting tortured and it's scarred me greatly." Everything else though about Alexius isn't the only option, there are clearly other options in the dialog that may or may not dissuade Leliana from slicing Felix, so I think that's not really critiquing just yet.



#9
Deflagratio

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 Now this being next-gen,

 

 

 

StoppedReading.jpg


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#10
Mihura

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You do not need to squeeze the neck of someone to break it, it is about being believable and not realistic.

I can agree that she should be in worse state but there is a whole "sexualising" violence on woman that can get really ugly fast. Of course they could had put her hood down and do a lip or face cut with some blood, also you can have mature themes and situations without that being explicit.

My complains go more on the side of the lack of quivers or how they do not use the hands or body to open doors, or lack of scabbards...etc


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#11
Mes

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As for the torture scene, your's (and others) is the one complaint I've seen made that holds some merit. That being said, she was being held captive by mages. Methinks they could infiltrate her mind and torture scar it far more greatly than any scary iron implement beaten upon her person could.

 

That's a good point! 

 

The only thing that made me go "huh?!" was her very shiny glossy lipstick. It felt out of place for her character and the situation. But hey all in all that's a very tiny criticism from me.


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#12
Mes

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Actually my complains go more on the side of the lack of quivers or how they do not use the hands or body to open doors, or lack of scabbards...etc

 

Lack of quivers bothers me.  :unsure: It's pretty much just because of that animation of Sera actually reaching for something behind her back and pulling something forward. I'm fine with magic-out-of-thin-air arrows, but I think it'd be best to have them just appear directly on the bow.



#13
raz3rkun

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Lack of quivers bothers me.  :unsure: It's pretty much just because of that animation of Sera actually reaching for something behind her back and pulling something forward. I'm find with magic-out-of-thin-air arrows, but I think it'd be best to have them just appear directly on the bow.


Im very certain quivers will be visible in the final build!
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#14
Quinnzel

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They probably didnt need traditional torture methods on Leli. They probably just threatened her with ugly shoes.

 

"SO! You are still unwilling to talk then Bard? Let us see how well your willpower fares against these devious, painful tools!"

"By ze Maker, not the CLOGS!"


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#15
Enigmatick

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Points 1 & 4 I agree with to some extent.

4: You could argue that Leliana was being tortured by mages so they wouldn't need to physically beat her or take off her armor and clothes, since they would be using spells like Horror and Crushing Prison on her, but yeah they way she is presented isn't very "I've been here for a while getting tortured and it's scarred me greatly." Everything else though about Alexius isn't the only option, there are clearly other options in the dialog that may or may not dissuade Leliana from slicing Felix, so I think that's not really critiquing just yet.

The torturer himself wasn't a mage and given the pan over all the torture tools I'd say it's a safe bet it's implied he used them.

 

Leliana not looking visibly wounded at all just makes me unsympathetic to whatever supposedly happened and makes the scene seem like it was put there to make her look "badass".


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#16
Lukas Trevelyan

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Im very certain quivers will be visible in the final build!

Yea, quivers will be visible in the final build, check Sera's recent character kit, they probably weren't ready at the time.




 


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#17
TKavatar

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1. "Victory is impossible. The Elder One will destroy us both"

5 seconds later...

"Victory is impossible. The Elder One will destroy us both"

5 seconds later....

"Victory is impossible. The Elder One will destroy us both"

2. Some very obvious LOD and shadow pop in.

3. Leliana looking flawless even when she's supposedly tortured like other people have already stated.

4. Very stiff rag doll animations (Sera fell like a puppet).
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#18
Bayonet Hipshot

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Leliana's torturer was not a mage. He was clearly just a torturer. We clearly saw torture tools existing. The camera panned to them as well. As such, we can very well assume that an actual torture must have taken place. However, we did not see any indication of this happening on Leliana.

 

This is not me wanting to sexualize her, this is not me wanting to degrade any survivors of assault, this is me wanting realism. I have seen plenty of torture scenes in media with mature rating and there is blood and gore, to say the least. 

 

I still maintain we should have fought the torturer (like we did in Arl Howe's dungeons), be given the ability / option to assume control of Sera or Iron Bull when they went to hold the enemies off, alternatively suggest another option like barricading the door, allowed to take control of Leliana when she fights. 

 

It is funny why we never thought of barricading the door. We have spellcasters, a huge qunari and 2 archers. Create some magical barrier, position two archers to attack, have the Bull at the front. 

 

Using gameplay gives the players more agency as opposed to cutscenes. It gives more options. Its awesome. 

 

The cutscenes featuring Leliana had no reason to exist other than to make her look "badass".  It served no other purpose. Even the one where she executed Felix. 

 

Add this to buggy dialogue from Alexius during combat, lack of quivers, the tumbling down animation of Sera...Yeah, these are valid criticisms. Since this is a demo and the game is shown to be in alpha, it is also a good time to point things out because they could be fix.

 

As for my concerns regarding dragons and wild animals, that was me just wondering, not criticizing. I did state that in my post. I was wondering if we have options to drive away wild animals / scare them away / harvest them. I was wondering if there is a narrative reason to kill dragons other than loot. 



#19
EnduinRaylene

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The torturer himself wasn't a mage and given the pan over all the torture tools I'd say it's a safe bet it's implied he used them.

 

Leliana not looking visibly wounded at all just makes me unsympathetic to whatever supposedly happened and makes the scene seem like it was put there to make her look "badass".

Fair point. I do think they should do something to show, not just imply, she's been tortured. Though you bring up a point that now bothers me more, a mage using magic sounds way cooler and more realistic than just relying on some dude physically beating and messing with her. It would also play much more into her now apparent hatred for mages and their powers if they had used magic, possibly even blood magic, to mess with her mind. Though if they did use blood magic that would then bring up the question why torture in the first place really if you can use blood magic to mind control which is pretty much one of the most widely feared aspects of the art, but maybe Alexius and co don't dabble in BM.



#20
Lukas Trevelyan

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Anyway let me tell you what I think, first of all you're ridiculously critical, and that's not exactly a good thing but never mind.

1) We'll get our investigate options, but they wanted to show a new thing they added and it's that you can just walk away from a conversation if you're disinterested, it was also shown back in pax prime 2013.

2) That's just asking for too much, they're bears, they see you as a threat and will try to fight you till the end. Add to that you have no clue how difficult it is to code an AI with that many variables in addition to the already going combat mechanics AI, so just no. If any "wild animals" run it'd be non combatant ones. As for the harvest part, you're a leader and you have a lot more on your mind than butchering a bear to feed it's meat to a couple of hungry villagers, nor do you have the time to skin them for whatever armor you want to craft. That being said you'll be able to send agents and troops to do such jobs for you instead. Should you still not be convinced then I should point out that it's a demo, with a time limit, they won't waste time looting a bear.

3) Note 1 dragon from previous Dragon Age games that didn't wreak havoc wherever it went. They guard their territory and spread chaos wherever they go. On the other hand its a dragon, it's scales and bones can form the strongest armors, or perhaps they posses or guard treasures that you want..

4) You're somewhat correct about this part, however gore isn't necessary and no bioware game has ever delved into hardcore graphical gore, what was necessary was her not to have lip gloss on. In addition to some scars and bruises as well. But that's really about it...

In conclusion I'd like to point out how you misused the term "constructive criticism" since you focused more on criticizing a universe that you saw a fraction of instead of focusing on what may have went wrong in the demo. Instead you should make suggestions or give feed back based on what you know so far, which may I add is quite little.


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#21
Lukas Trevelyan

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The cutscenes featuring Leliana had no reason to exist other than to make her look "badass".  It served no other purpose. Even the one where she executed Felix. 

 

 

 

 

And that's bad because?


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#22
Han Shot First

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1. "Victory is impossible. The Elder One will destroy us both"

5 seconds later...

"Victory is impossible. The Elder One will destroy us both"

5 seconds later....

"Victory is impossible. The Elder One will destroy us both"
 

 

Enemies everywhere! Go! Go! Go!


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#23
Deflagratio

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Enemies everywhere! Go! Go! Go!

 

I will destroy you!


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#24
slimgrin

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the torture scene has no impact due to Leliana's Vogue worthy appearance. The least they could do is get her out of her armor and have a trickle of blood on her lips. Anything to show she's been roughed up, because she sure as hell acts like she has been after the inquisitor frees her.


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#25
Bayonet Hipshot

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And that's bad because?

 

Because it is better to use gameplay. It is better to let us take the torturer down. It is better to have us temporarily play as Leliana fighting. It is a game after all, not an animated movie.