120 réponses à ce sujet

[Lost_In_Anarchy]

It's in the direct quote, last part: 

''...so you could use lyrium to power blood magic as well.''

I meant the part where he says 'Because David just said that you can use lyrium instead to power up this ''blood magic'' ( quotes there for a reason ) mind control spell.' I didn't remember him saying that. I remember this part you referenced. And remember him saying Blood Mages are the only ones who can do certain spells like mind control. But I never heard the two statements put together.

 

Since Blood Magic is about using one's life force not always literal blood then you could use lyrium as power source if you were weak or the spell you wanted to do required your entire life force. Am I wrong with thinking that Blood Mages have demon tutors? Didn't Merrill open the way to the cemetery by using her blood to call the demon to open it? I thought she said that she used Blood Magic (calling the demon) to cleanse the shards because she didn't have piles of lyrium. So the magic is coming more from the demon. You have made a contract in blood with it for its assistance and knowledge.

[KainD]

Well blood as a power mechanism could still be called "blood magic" simply because it's using blood to power the magic.

 

But we don't say lyrium magic now do we? 

[KainD]

I meant the part where he says 'Because David just said that you can use lyrium instead to power up this ''blood magic'' ( quotes there for a reason ) mind control spell.' I didn't remember him saying that. I remember this part you referenced. And remember him saying Blood Mages are the only ones who can do certain spells like mind control. But I never heard the two statements put together.

 

It's a logical chain. 

 

 

Since Blood Magic is about using one's life force not always literal blood then you could use lyrium as power source if you were weak or the spell you wanted to do required your entire life force. 

 

Or you could use others lives. 

 

 

Am I wrong with thinking that Blood Mages have demon tutors? Didn't Merrill open the way to the cemetery by using her blood to call the demon to open it? 

 

Yes and no. A demon can also teach you how to cast a fireball, but that doesn't mean that you can't learn it without the demons help. Same for blood magic. But generally demons can teach people a lot about magic, whatever he subject might be. 

[KainD]

We don't say lyrium simply because it's "normal." Same reason that a "fireplace" uses wood, but a "gas fireplace" uses gas. The first one doesn't say "wood fireplace," even though technically it should, because it's the normal version.

 

But the normal version is mana no?  

[Maria Caliban]

Can I have examples for both and the reason why?

Blood magic (school) that could be done with lyrium: Fixing Merril's mirror
Blood magic (school) that requires blood: Blood Wound
Questionable: The Anvil of the Void.

I don't believe it's stated why some spells and abilities can only be powered by blood and other cannot.

[KainD]

Mana is the base thing you use. But the two additional sources of power are lyrium and blood. Because lyirum is commonly used, they don't call it lyrium magic, even though technically they probably should (or they shouldn't make any significance of the power source at all). Because it's common, they just call it "magic." But because blood as a power source is uncommon, they have a name for it--blood magic--that coincides with the "blood magic school."

 

I guess you are right. And I guess the fact that people that want to slit their's ( or someone else's ) wrists for power are usually the same people that would mind control others, gave the school the same name. I would personally call it different. Maybe.. Essence magic?  

[KainD]

Blood magic (school) that could be done with lyrium: Fixing Merril's mirror
Blood magic (school) that requires blood: Blood Wound
Questionable: The Anvil of the Void.

I don't believe it's stated why some spells and abilities can only be powered by blood and other cannot.

 

Hmm, I think David just stated that you can cast blood wound with lyrium. Or at least I fully got an impression of that. I don't really remember to be honest anywhere in the lore places that would mention what can be powered with what at all, outside of gameplay. 

[Lost_In_Anarchy]

It's a logical chain. 

 

 

 

Or you could use others lives. 

 

 

 

Yes and no. A demon can also teach you how to cast a fireball, but that doesn't mean that you can't learn it without the demons help. Same for blood magic. But generally demons can teach people a lot about magic, whatever he subject might be. 

Ok, since you said 'Because David just said that you can use lyrium instead to power up this ''blood magic'' ( quotes there for a reason ) mind control spell.'
... I thought I missed it and wanted to listen to that part again.

 

But Demons could only teach you things like mind control right? I've never seen that in any other tree. And what if you don't have other lives for the blood ritual? You would have to use lyrium or mana to boost the spell, correct?

 

Isn't Blood Magic, the class, different than blood magic? The class, Blood Magic, is a school of knowledge attained from a demon. But one can do blood magic, which is using their blood to power a fireball spell, but not get the 'forbidden knowledge' from the demon.

[KainD]

Isn't Blood Magic, the class, different than blood magic? The class, Blood Magic, is a school of knowledge attained from a demon. But one can do blood magic, which is using their blood to power a fireball spell, but not get the 'forbidden knowledge' from the demon.

 

Ok, this is the points I've never seen raised in these discussions before at all.. Very nice one. We had discussions about blood magic duality before but. 

 

Maybe it is like that - using blood as a power source is something any mage can learn on their own. But mind controlling people is something you can only learn from a demon.. That's interesting. 

 

After all it were those desire demons indoctrinating people into their slaves at the tower and other places. So they might be the origin of that magic. 

[Maria Caliban]

Hmm, I think David just stated that you can cast blood wound with lyrium.

He said you can powers blood magic with lyrium. He did not say that you can lower ALL blood magic with lyrium.

There are some blood magic spells that can only be powered with blood.

[KainD]

He said you can powers blood magic with lyrium. He did not say that you can lower ALL blood magic with lyrium.

There are some blood magic spells that can only be powered with blood.

 

Now that we have this demon discussion going on, I wouldn't be so sure. After all, demons don't use blood for their spells, but they do mind control. 

[KainD]

Oh and btw, if the Blood magic school can be learned only from demons, while blood as a source can be used by mages on their own 2 quotes start to make sense:

1) Demons can counter every bit of blood magic. - Avernus.

2) Did you felt the power of blood when you cut yourself Merrill? - Anders

[Lost_In_Anarchy]

Now that we have this demon discussion going on, I wouldn't be so sure. After all, demons don't use blood for their spells, but they do mind control. 

Demons may not use blood for their spells, but don't they feed off life energies? Wouldn't it be kind of like selling your soul, but instead of selling it out right, you lease it? I, the above mage, offer up this sacrifice *insert blood*, to feed the undersigned demon in return for their power, knowledge, and assistance in magic. At any point the Blood Mage could "cancel" the contract and the demon would stop assisting, but not stop talking to the mage. If the mage uses blood as a power source or does a spell that requires the demon's assistance, they are back in and could turn the mage into an abomination. Or am I oversimplifying Blood Magic? Like I said, I've never played a Blood Mage. :S

[KainD]

Demons may not use blood for their spells, but don't they feed off life energies? Wouldn't it be kind of like selling your soul, but instead of selling it out right, you lease it? I, the above mage, offer up this sacrifice *insert blood*, to feed the undersigned demon in return for their power, knowledge, and assistance in magic. At any point the Blood Mage could "cancel" the contract and the demon would stop assisting, but not stop talking to the mage. If the mage uses blood as a power source or does a spell that requires the demon's assistance, they are back in and could turn the mage into an abomination. Or am I oversimplifying Blood Magic? Like I said, I've never played a Blood Mage. :S

 

''You summoned something here with blood magic?''

''The spirit helped didn't it?'' - Merrill. 

 

Also a good theory. Maybe demons never teach blood magic to blood mages, but instead come and perform it themselves. 

 

''Blood and desire in equal measure''. 

 

Edit: Just contradicts a bit with Avernus quote. 

[Lost_In_Anarchy]

''You summoned something here with blood magic?''

''The spirit helped didn't it?'' - Merrill. 

 

Also a good theory. Maybe demons never teach blood magic to blood mages, but instead come and perform it themselves. 

 

''Blood and desire in equal measure''. 

 

Edit: Just contradicts a bit with Avernus quote. 

What if by "counter" he meant they absorb it? If demons feed off life, then using blood as a power source for your spells would just be feeding them, therefore countering the magic. They wouldn't get more powerful if you used lyrium or mana because they aren't a living energy, so spells powered that way could not be countered.

 

Edit: I always saw demons as parasites looking for a host.

[KainD]

What if by "counter" he meant they absorb it? If demons feed off life, then using blood as a power source for your spells would just be feeding them, therefore countering the magic. They wouldn't get more powerful if you used lyrium or mana because they aren't a living energy, so spells powered that way could not be countered.

 

1) I'm not sure all demons do that - absorb life force. I know hunger demons do, but they just absorb everyone and everything even attacking and devouring other demons and spirits. Demons seem to be feeding more off emotions in general. 

2) I think Avernus was talking about blood magic and not blood powered magic, since blood powered magic is the same essentially as regular magic. 

3) You'd have to fight a demon outside of the fade, since you can't use blood in the fade.. I think. So they would be physical and they would have their own lifeforce. 

[KainD]

Edit: I always saw demons as parasites looking for a host.

 

They can be a parasite, but they can also be a simbiote. 

[Lost_In_Anarchy]

They can be a parasite, but they can also be a simbiote. 

Symbotic! That was the word I was trying to think of and only parasite came to mind.

 

Avernus did say "Blood magic comes from demons; they could counter every bit of lore I possess. But the darkspawn taint, that is alien to them. And it has power." I am confused by this. It says what I thought, Blood Magic comes from demons, but Grey Warden blood is more powerful? You can perform any Blood Magic spell without the assistance of a demon? Or does it mean you could have the same power level spells as you would with the demon's help, but some spells (like mind control) couldn't be performed because they are actually done by the demon? I can't remember this bit in Origins at all >.<

 

Also I know each demon has their own vice they feed off of like Hunger, Desire, Pride. I guess I meant that outside the Fade, you had to kind of open a door to that vice with a blood sacrifice. Offer the blood and the demon would assist or perform the task you required of it, but it was still stuck in the fade. Within the fade, you could just agree and you wouldn't even have to be a mage to let the demon in to feed. This would make one an abomination.

[Maria Caliban]

Grey Warden and Darkspawn power comes from the Taint. Demons and spirits are creatures of the Fade, and draw their power from it.

The Taint and the Fade are completely unconnected, so if you're using magic and abilities powered by the Taint, that would be alien to them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You can use Lyrium to amplify your Blood Magic as in you will have to use less blood then otherwise, but you can never circumvent the need for blood. Perfectly simple really..