120 réponses à ce sujet

[Chari]

IMHO

Lyrium - power source

Blood - power source

Blood magic - a type of magic

[EmperorSahlertz]

IMHO

Lyrium - power source

Blood - power source

Blood magic - a type of magic

Yes. But to use blood as a power source requires you to know Blood Magic. You don't need to know a specific type of magic to use Lyrium.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

Dear God it's been hours and you still don't understand an incredibly simple concept?.. 
I think you're just reading too much into it.

You power blood magic with lyrium, you power blood magic with blood and you cannot power blood with lyrium.

Basically your spells from this specific tree can be powered using mana, or health but you cannot power your mana using health. 

[Chari]

Yes. But to use blood as a power source requires you to know Blood Magic. You don't need to know a specific type of magic to use Lyrium.

Eh, no

You don't need to know Blood Magic to use blood as a source of power. As Anders said, it could start with a simple cut and feeling the life power of blood

Both Blood and Lyrium are but energy sources. You can use both to power up your magic. Granted, who wants to bleed like this just to summon some fire? 

Blood Magic is a type of magic which controls the blood and life energy of other living beings. Meaning that you don't even have to use your own blood to use it: the trick is using others' blood and life energy

[EmperorSahlertz]

Eh, no

You don't need to know Blood Magic to use blood as a source of power. As Anders said, it could start with a simple cut and feeling the life power of blood

Both Blood and Lyrium are but energy sources. You can use both to power up your magic. Granted, who wants to bleed like this just to summon some fire? 

Blood Magic is a type of magic which controls the blood and life energy of other living beings. Meaning that you don't even have to use your own blood to use it: the trick is using others' blood and life energy

Anders also said that you HAD to make a deal with a demon to learn Blood Magic. You don't become a Blood Mage on accident. It is a cognitive choice.

[Chari]

Anders also said that you HAD to make a deal with a demon to learn Blood Magic. You don't become a Blood Mage on accident. It is a cognitive choice.

Not really. Jowan didn't. To learn blood magic - maybe

To use blood as life source you need no demons. To drive a car you need a license. But to use gasoline as a source of heat you just needs to put it on fire

[Akkos]

Not really. Jowan didn't. To learn blood magic - maybe

To use blood as life source you need no demons. To drive a car you need a license. But to use gasoline as a source of heat you just needs to put it on fire

 

Lol haven't you noticed when a demon is drawn out from the fade into the physical world, they uses nearby life source to cast spell, while blood mages uses their own life source to draw spells from the fade into the physical world.    

 

Magic is drawn from the fade. Even Templars can use lyrium to draw magic from the fade. So it all has to do with the fade, demons and spirit.

[Akkos]

Anders also said that you HAD to make a deal with a demon to learn Blood Magic. You don't become a Blood Mage on accident. It is a cognitive choice.

Have you noticed Dragon age is still a game.......... You'd even question why the Warden killed the archdemon using blood magic or Hawke controlling the mages and templars using blood magic...   This is a game.

[Chari]

Lol haven't you noticed when a demon is drawn out from the fade into the physical world, they uses nearby life source to cast spell, while blood mages uses their own life source to draw spells from the fade into the physical world.    

 

Magic is drawn from the fade. Even Templars can use lyrium to draw magic from the fade. So it all has to do with the fade, demons and spirit.

Mages have an ability to draw power from the Fade aka magic

But they use their own mana to do so. The lyrium is needed to quickly restore their mana or to power up their spells, but it is not the main source of magic for humans

Demons need living - or not so - beings because while they're powerful magic users, they do no exist in the physical realm. Hence they can posses even dwarves 

Blood is just another energy source which can power up the magic. But blood magic itself is an art of controlling other people's life force. It can be used on a user him/herself, but also on others 

One can cast basic magic using blood as a powersource

One can cast blood magic using lyrium as a powersource

And one can use blood or lyrium to cast blood magic

It's very simple, really

[EmperorSahlertz]

 

Not really. Jowan didn't. To learn blood magic - maybe

To use blood as life source you need no demons. To drive a car you need a license. But to use gasoline as a source of heat you just needs to put it on fire

All we know is that Jowan claims he learned it from a book. A book which contents we know nothing of. Maybe the book instructed him firstly to contact demons. Maybe he lied. The matter of fact remains the same, Blood Magic is not something you stumble upon.

 

Have you noticed Dragon age is still a game.......... You'd even question why the Warden killed the archdemon using blood magic or Hawke controlling the mages and templars using blood magic...   This is a game.

Oooooookay?.... 

[Chari]

 

All we know is that Jowan claims he learned it from a book. A book which contents we know nothing of. Maybe the book instructed him firstly to contact demons. Maybe he lied. The matter of fact remains the same, Blood Magic is not something you stumble upon.

 

Oooooookay?.... 

It isn't. It's a type of magic, like spirit one. It's a knowledge which needs to be leartn in order to use. Demons and Old Gods were the ones, who told humans how to use it in the first place. Learning on one's own makes a blood mage who can simply use their own blood as a powersource and nothing more. Powerful bloodmages don't need their own blood: they can use only mana to control minds, bodies and demons. It's just that blood is more powerful as an energy source

Blood itself is just a powersource

[Kalamah]

Now here is where I get lost:

Let's for the sake of this discussion call mind control ''dominate mind''. Dominate mind is a spell, like ANY other spell BECAUSE it can be used through use of mana, OR lyrium OR blood. 

 

Now why are we calling dominate mind a blood magic spell? Why do we toss it into the blood magic skill tree? Why does blood magic skill tree even exist? 

Why not just call dominate mind a forbidden malificar spell and call it a day? 

 

Desire demons use dominate mind, they don't use blood magic. 

Hmm... to me, it seems the issue is sort of semantics? For the record, we know that other types of mages outside the circle learn different types of magic, and most that we see in the games are generally the same sort even if the methods are different. For example, Saarebas can cast fire and lightning (and possibly cold spells too? can't remember) all without a staff. If we had the opportunity to actually utilize Ketojan as a companion, his spells would probably use similar if not the same Elemental/Primal trees other mages have if just for convenience, similar to how apostates such as Morrigan can learn the same spells as Wynne, and how Bethany/mage Hawke have the same spell trees as Anders and even Merrill, with only spec differences and no access to one particular spell tree.

 

All that said, in game lore each type of mage (Dalish Keepers, Saarebas, Circle Mages, apostates, hedge mages) learns a different style of magic, so to speak, but the mechanics in the game itself are similar in its effects. Therefore, in a sense, all magic has the same root but some mage types have access to specializations unique to their type while also being able to learn the core basics. As for blood magic specifically, like you said it's merely a type of magic, a specific spell tree like any other. In theory, any and all mages can learn it even if there are some differences in their methods and specific spells in that tree (Merrill's spec that combined Keeper magic and blood magic, for example).

 

It makes sense then that it can be powered by blood but doesn't necessarily need to be, and it's more about how much power a specific spell needs than what that spell is. So, to expand on that, I'd think it was certainly possible to learn and use blood magic without needing to use blood to power it provided there's enough mana or lyrium, which also makes sense for both extra power boost blood gives and desperate circumstances where you don't have a spare lyrium potion to restore mana. Besides which, it's always been my feeling that the Entropy spell tree is practically like mind control and only semantics (plus the fact mages don't use blood to cast its spells) makes it distinct from blood magic. After all, Entropy spells control the body (weakness, drain life) of the enemy, and also the mind (hex, disorient) to an extent. It's only acceptable because it's not explicitly blood magic.

 

Therefore, perhaps demons aren't all that different either in their magic, and I do seem to recall that their powers are present whether or not they have a host body, and whether or not said host is a mage. Which means they have some "magic" ability inherently, just that they can use someone's body to enhance their power through possession, which is why mage abominations are feared even if demons can possess anyone and anything. Mages are just a particularly appealing host. So, in a sense, demons have at least one other spell tree essentially, and perhaps specific to the type of demon they are.

[Akkos]

Mages have an ability to draw power from the Fade aka magic

But they use their own mana to do so. The lyrium is needed to quickly restore their mana or to power up their spells, but it is not the main source of magic for humans

Demons need living - or not so - beings because while they're powerful magic users, they do no exist in the physical realm. Hence they can posses even dwarves 

Blood is just another energy source which can power up the magic. But blood magic itself is an art of controlling other people's life force. It can be used on a user him/herself, but also on others 

One can cast basic magic using blood as a powersource

One can cast blood magic using lyrium as a powersource

And one can use blood or lyrium to cast blood magic

It's very simple, really

 

I said the same thing. You are basically repeating and "contradicting" what you said in earlier post.

Mana = Life force/source....  Just like mage....stamina.

Blood = Powersource, has nothing to do with Lyrium. You can amplifier magic with blood itself.

Lyrium = Powersource too, has nothing to do with Blood.

Most thing you said make sense if we are refering to the game, especially Kalamah (spell tree blah blah) . Not the lore itself.

 

Templars does the same thing. But with Lyrium. And they weren't naturally born with "magic". 

[Chari]

I said the same thing. You are basically repeating and "contradicting" what you said in earlier post.

Mana = Life force/source....  Just like mage....stamina.

Blood = Powersource, has nothing to do with Lyrium. You can amplifier magic with blood itself.

Lyrium = Powersource too, has nothing to do with Blood.

Most thing you said make sense if we are refering to the game, especially Kalamah (spell tree blah blah) . Not the lore itself.

 

Templars does the same thing. But with Lyrium. And they weren't naturally born with "magic". 

I'm not contradicting myself

Mages posses mana - pretty much their own little source of magic power, like electricity for gadgets - which makes them capable of using spells

Lyrium and blood can be used to power up it or restore, since naturally even strong mages have limited mana. In canon it was stated that using too muhc lyrium - even by mages - is dangerous for health. It's like these drugs used in sport and warfare to strghthen a fighter

Hence using blood for magic and blood magic itself are not synonyms. Blood magic is an art, a type of magic, knowledge and skill. Blood is just a battery, which is the main source of blood magic spells, but it is not necessary the blood of a user and it doesn't have to be used for blood magic

 

IMHO it seems that all living beings have some connection to the Fade. But only mages can control it. Templars have their connection powered by artificially by lyrium

[Akkos]

I'm not contradicting myself

Mages posses mana - pretty much their own little source of magic power, like electricity for gadgets - which makes them capable of using spells

Lyrium and blood can be used to power up it or restore, since naturally even strong mages have limited mana. In canon it was stated that using too muhc lyrium - even by mages - is dangerous for health. It's like these drugs used in sport and warfare to strghthen a fighter

Hence using blood for magic and blood magic itself are not synonyms. Blood magic is an art, a type of magic, knowledge and skill. Blood is just a battery, which is the main source of blood magic spells, but it is not necessary the blood of a user and it doesn't have to be used for blood magic

 

IMHO it seems that all living beings have some connection to the Fade. But only mages can control it. Templars have their connection powered by artificially by lyrium

 

Anyway, . My point was that mages cannot "create" or cast fire, ice, electricity spells from their staves into the physical world without opening the fade a bit.

[J-Reyno]

 

Besides which, it's always been my feeling that the Entropy spell tree is practically like mind control and only semantics (plus the fact mages don't use blood to cast its spells) makes it distinct from blood magic. After all, Entropy spells control the body (weakness, drain life) of the enemy, and also the mind (hex, disorient) to an extent. It's only acceptable because it's not explicitly blood magic.

I'm reading to try to catch up and understand everything here, but this is really interesting.

 

The way I always understood it, actual Blood Magic (the spec) is the manipulation of blood to various effects.  Mind Control, for example, is just manipulating the blood of the target to force them to do your bidding.  This is why BM is forbidden because you are directly controlling the life force of other beings.  

 

So Blood Magic is the manipulation of blood or life force, a process that can be powered by lyrium as a source.  Blood itself can also be used as a universal power source for spells.  Using blood as a source for spells, perhaps, can be considered a kind of Blood Magic in itself because you are.. well... manipulating blood to achieve a specific effect?  That could be wrong, though, since perhaps blood inherently functions as a power source, like lyrium, without manipulation.  But I can see how using it to power magic can still be seen as the same thing as manipulating blood ala Blood Magic.

 

Comparing to Entropy, I guess the difference would be that Entropy magic affects the physical body and mind?  Weakening the physical body and draining energy, disturbing the mind with horrors... but not manipulating the blood or the actual life force of the target?

[Kalamah]

The way I always understood it, actual Blood Magic (the spec) is the manipulation of blood to various effects.  Mind Control, for example, is just manipulating the blood of the target to force them to do your bidding.  This is why BM is forbidden because you are directly controlling the life force of other beings.  

 

[...]

 

Comparing to Entropy, I guess the difference would be that Entropy magic affects the physical body and mind?  Weakening the physical body and draining energy, disturbing the mind with horrors... but not manipulating the blood or the actual life force of the target?

Well, the way I see it, the Chantry propaganda and semantics games are the main issue here, if I were to get technical. Because if you look at both the Spirit and Entropy trees and compare them to the blood magic tree, there are only, at best superficial differences, along with how the spells are usually powered (blood vs. mana/lyrium). I mean, Spirit (Origins) has Animate Dead, for bleep's sake, along with Death Syphon, and the only difference between that and Grave Robber (DA2) is wording, and barely at that. So really, the Chantry just has a stick up its collective rear about using blood to power spells, not necessarily the spells specific to the blood magic tree. Which I find hilarious in that "oh, you bleeping hypocrites!" way. 

 

Personally, the only reason I haven't specced my mage Hawke with blood magic is because the Spirit and Entropy trees do basically the same and more than blood magic, and don't deplete my health in the process. Blood magic is mostly feared because it can be used to control someone else, and because blood as a power source makes the mage's spells stronger, not because it's fundamentally different or worse (by which I mean "evil") than other spell trees.

[CapivaRasgor]

David Gaider Interview:
https://www.youtube....XCpKDqFb8#t=127

About 9 min in. Direct quote:

''There are some things that you can do with blood magic that you can't do with lyrium, like mind control. Because blood magic is not just a source of power, it's a type of power, so that allows you to control other life force, to control lives, where as lyrium is just a source for all magic, so you could use lyrium to power blood magic as well.''



I'm so confused right now. I listened to it like 10 times. Like.. what?

Hey, from what I've grasped about the lore, blood magic is usually to refers to:

1-The act of using blood as a source of power to perform magical abilities.

2-A school of magic that encompasses spells that can influence the mind of others, be it to create illusions, dominate minds or incapacitate them. And it also encompasses the use of blood as a component for whatever the magical purpose is. The phylacteries are a form of "blood magic" because they track the mage through their blood, the magic in them makes the blood glow if it's close to it's source (the mage). The Joining is also a form of blood magic, we don't know the specifics of the magic involved but it seems to slow the corruption of the Warden's blood by the darkspawns'.

The second usage doesn't seem to require a slit wrist, Idunna doesn't visibly use blood to force Hawke into confessing that Viveka showed them the books, yet she openly states that she used “Blood and desire in equal measure” when prompted if she used blood magic. I think that what Gaider means is that blood magic isn’t just the act of using blood to power spells, it’s a whole school of magic, one that involves using blood as a source of power but also involves magical abilities that can shape or control life –or the essence of life, which one can think as blood. And thus, blood magic being a school of magic and not merely a power source, it can be performed using any magical power source available: blood, lyrium… hell even green leaves of spring if they are a power source.

[J-Reyno]

Well, the way I see it, the Chantry propaganda and semantics games are the main issue here, if I were to get technical. Because if you look at both the Spirit and Entropy trees and compare them to the blood magic tree, there are only, at best superficial differences, along with how the spells are usually powered (blood vs. mana/lyrium). I mean, Spirit (Origins) has Animate Dead, for bleep's sake, along with Death Syphon, and the only difference between that and Grave Robber (DA2) is wording, and barely at that. So really, the Chantry just has a stick up its collective rear about using blood to power spells, not necessarily the spells specific to the blood magic tree. Which I find hilarious in that "oh, you bleeping hypocrites!" way. 

 

Personally, the only reason I haven't specced my mage Hawke with blood magic is because the Spirit and Entropy trees do basically the same and more than blood magic, and don't deplete my health in the process. Blood magic is mostly feared because it can be used to control someone else, and because blood as a power source makes the mage's spells stronger, not because it's fundamentally different or worse (by which I mean "evil") than other spell trees.

Right right, I agree.  Like you said I think it's mostly the mind control thing that's feared.  It seems it can be much more potent than the various mental disturbances which can be inflicted by Entropy.  From a story/lore point of view, I mean.  That and the possible, perhaps likely, association with demons.  Something I'm sure the Chantry views as a terrible thing no matter how the power is used.

[Freedheart]

I'm surprised no one has brought up Jowan and Conner.  Jowan suggests sending someone into the fade to kill the demon that is possessing Conner, but it would require a lot of mages and lyrium - OR he could power the spell using blood.  Now Alistair refers to this as 'blood magic' but that is not actually correct, as the exact same spell can be cast without using blood at all.

 

Blood Magic is a school of magic, just like Spirit, Entropy, etc.  It is forbidden, because it is used to control/influence another person.  That is what the Litany of Adralla is for in the Broken Circle quest, to disrupt the mind control that Uldred is using to force the mages into becoming abominations.  Wynne states this explicitly when Owain tells them about the Litany - that's for mind control, we must be dealing with Blood Magic. 

 

The Tevinter magisters that invaded the Golden City did so using mass quantities of blood to fuel their magic, but not using blood magic.

 

blood = lyrium = power source

 

Blood Magic = school of magic

[LobselVith8]

Not really. Jowan didn't. To learn blood magic - maybe

To use blood as life source you need no demons. To drive a car you need a license. But to use gasoline as a source of heat you just needs to put it on fire

 

That's true. Jowan is implied to have learned blood magic from books. The Orlesian Warden can verbally request the Baroness to teach him blood magic at a time when he believes she's simply another mage. WoT reads that blood magic has been taught to apprentices by their senior mages in Tevinter. While Anders mentions a "demon" in one sentence, he also mentions learning it by accident, from a cut.