60 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

And probably just me.

Remember how quests in DA2 would just appear in your journal without you having done anything? You didn't agree to do a quest, and you might not even have spoken with anyone.

I hated that.

I would like more explicit control over what gets recorded in my journal. Ideally, I'd like to be asked before anything gets written there, and in a perfect world I'd like the chance to add to the entry.

But I don't think quest instructions should ever appear in my journal without me knowing about it, and preferably not without my consent.

[Lady Nuggins]

I think I see what you're saying, but I'd hate to have to "approve" every new journal entry.  It would get tedious to stop what I'm doing to hit "yes add to journal" for every minor side-quest I run across.  I rely on the journal heavily because I tend to forget what quests I've started or where I am in them, so I'm going to add every new quest regardless of whether I want to do them yet or not.

 

Would it bother you less if a more visible pop-up appeared when a quest is initiated?  Or if we had more control over making quests within the journal "visible"?

[In Exile]

And probably just me.

Remember how quests in DA2 would just appear in your journal without you having done anything? You didn't agree to do a quest, and you might not even have spoken with anyone.

I hated that.

I would like more explicit control over what gets recorded in my journal. Ideally, I'd like to be asked before anything gets written there, and in a perfect world I'd like the chance to add to the entry.

But I don't think quest instructions should ever appear in my journal without me knowing about it, and preferably not without my consent.

 

While I understand where you're coming from, I thought this part of DA2 was a decent attempt at getting around the RPG problem: leaving XP on the table when abandoning the quest is in character. This at least allowed you to come up with an in-character reason for solving the quest when it triggered, just by "stumbling" across it. 

 

The real solution, of course, is not to have quests trigger only when talking to a quest-giver, but Bioware seems to not like that (very reasonable option). 

 

Otherwise, I think Lady Nuggins has a good point about requiring approval for every entry into the journal - it would be tedious. 

That said I think the source of the debate here is whether a journal is OOC. Bioware never seems to be able to decide. 

[DaySeeker]

I want it there so I don't miss anything, especially if it is time sensitive or necessary to move the story along.  I especially hate when quests get cut off or disappear not knowing they were available or because I didn't realize doing something in the world would delete the possibility.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think I see what you're saying, but I'd hate to have to "approve" every new journal entry. It would get tedious to stop what I'm doing to hit "yes add to journal" for every minor side-quest I run across. I rely on the journal heavily because I tend to forget what quests I've started or where I am in them, so I'm going to add every new quest regardless of whether I want to do them yet or not.

Would it bother you less if a more visible pop-up appeared when a quest is initiated? Or if we had more control over making quests within the journal "visible"?

I really disliked that quests Hawke had never heard about were in his journal at all. Those notifications to talk to companions? I want them not to be there. Those fetch quests that appeared in their own when a relevant item was picked up? Those quests shouldn't even exist, but if they have to, I want to be the one who decides that they matter.

And absolutely no quest should ever appear in the journal if that's the first I ever hear of it. If I haven't learned at least something about the quest already, there shouldn't be a journal entry.

[Lady Nuggins]

I really disliked that quests Hawke had never heard about were in his journal at all. Those notifications to talk to companions? I want them not to be there. Those fetch quests that appeared in their own when a relevant item was picked up? Those quests shouldn't even exist, but if they have to, I want to be the one who decides that they matter.

And absolutely no quest should ever appear in the journal if that's the first I ever hear of it. If I haven't learned at least something about the quest already, there shouldn't be a journal entry.

 

Ah, I see what you're saying.  It seems to me like that's more a failure in how the quests are introduced at all.  Visiting companions should have been either intiated by the player on their own or somehow brought up in-game.  The fetch quests were just all-around nonsensical (how did we know who to bring the item to?). 

[Enigmatick]

Personally I want the ability to turn all objective markers off, but I feel that they'll be viewed as integral when designing quests and that the NPCs won't really give me proper directions/instructions

[PsychoBlonde]

And probably just me.

Remember how quests in DA2 would just appear in your journal without you having done anything? You didn't agree to do a quest, and you might not even have spoken with anyone.

 

IIRC this only happened with the "Rumors" quests, which I think even Bioware has admitted were REALLY badly implemented.  I mean, if I have a codex entry saying "Varric heard a rumor about X" then I want to friggin have Varric friggin show up and friggin tell me what he friggin heard.  So, yes, I agree with you that this was lame-ola.

There were also occasions IIRC (although this might have been in Mass Effect, my memory is hazy) where people just kind of casually mention something and you only discover that they actually GAVE YOU A QUEST by going to your journal.  I know all the lost and found quests were like this, too.

I don't really think I'm interested in a system where you have to manually record everything to save it--it's too easy to forget and this system would be PUNISHING for people who play intermittently.  So I'm fine with the codex auto-recording quests.  What would be coolest in my mind is if they actually USED a tiered system:

 

1.  Rumors.  These are things you hear in passing.  And you actually DO hear them in passing.  And they're actually JUST RUMORS.  The Codex records them as "you heard X sort of thing about Y".  For example "You heard an elf in the marketplace say that prices are really high for iron goods at the docks right now".  No map marks, no "speak to this person".  It's just an indication that maybe if you go down to the docks and talk to the people around there, you might possibly learn more about some kind of iron shortage situation or something.

 

2.  Open-ended requests:  "So and so will buy X."  "There's a bounty on wolf hides."  "Bears are a problem in the Southern Foothills."  "The Keep smith wants more sources of ore."

 

3.  Active quests.  These get markers (if you want to play that way) and are the only ones that definitively tell you what you have to do to advance them.

[Sylvius the Mad]

IIRC this only happened with the "Rumors" quests, which I think even Bioware has admitted were REALLY badly implemented.  I mean, if I have a codex entry saying "Varric heard a rumor about X" then I want to friggin have Varric friggin show up and friggin tell me what he friggin heard.  So, yes, I agree with you that this was lame-ola.

Those "rumors" entries were quests?  I never figured out what those things were.  They showed up in the journal, sure, but nothing ever came of them.

 

My biggest complaint was with the item return quests, where, upon finding some object, a quest would appear in your journal telling you what it was and to whom to deliver it.  And then, simply speaking to that person automatically returned the item and provided a reward.  There was almost no content in that quest at all, and I do think the game would have been improved simply by having those not be there.  If the choice is between those quests or no quests, I choose no quests.

 

Because of the companion quests, where prompts would appear in the journal unbidden, I quickly made it a rule never to read my journal in DA2 so as to avoid that weird metagame information.  So I often had no idea what was going on in that game.

[In Exile]

Those "rumors" entries were quests?  I never figured out what those things were.  They showed up in the journal, sure, but nothing ever came of them.

They all turned into "Main Quests" at some point, for... some reason. It didn't really make sense why.

[PsychoBlonde]

They all turned into "Main Quests" at some point, for... some reason. It didn't really make sense why.

A huge percentage of the Main Quests in DA2 only became understandably "Main" in hindsight, i.e. after you finished the thing.  The Rumors basically guided you to where you picked up the first "official" stage of each of them.

 

DA2 was a very weird game in a lot of respects.  I enjoyed it a lot and I don't think it was a bad game, I just think they had ahold of something that was really unfamiliar to them and due to the lack of experience with how to assemble something like that they made a lot of choices that wound up coming across as more than a little goofy.  It was initially set up a lot like Baldur's Gate 2--they started you off with an open goal and let you loose to explore around and fulfill it how you saw fit.  But where Baldur's Gate 2 pulled you into a tight and urgent plot line once you got to Spellhold and Irenicus stole your soul, DA2 kind of fell apart.  They knew where they wanted to go but not how to pull you into it.  That's where I think all the weird-ass "why is this a Main Quest?" quests came from.  You could almost see the design process: "Act 2 is about the Qunari, the PC needs to be involved with the Qunari, so we need some sort of Intro To The Qunari quest"  "But they could skip it" "Well then don't LET them skip it".  "Act 3 is about the mage revolt.  The PC needs to be involved with the mages and Templars.  Put a bunch of Mage V. Templar stuff in Act 1 to lead into that." "But they could SKIP it."  "Then don't LET them skip it."  "But they still may not have a lot of emotional investment."  "Then kill off their mum.  That'll do the job."  "We can't just kill their mum off out of the blue."  "Well then have a serial killer kill off their mum.  Plant some sort of serial killer intro in Act 1."  "BUT THEY COULD . . ."  "DON'T LET THEM SKIP IT."

 

They're too used to driving the PC instead of figuring out how to let the PC drive and it showed.

Addendum:  I think in the end what really got them was that they tried to cram too much into a framework too narrow to support it.  There was a LOT of lore development going on in that game (the Qunari and Izzy, the Mage v. Templar setup, Grey Wardens, Red Lyrium, the Dalish, Varric and Cassandra and the framed narrative) but it was all told from the rather narrow perspective of a personal development story.  If they'd cut the Qunari completely (much as I love them), dropped a couple of pretty pointless companions (Aveline and Izzy), and had a bigger, more intensive development to the Mage v. Templar situation, I think it would have been a much better story and a much better game.  They could have done a really good dynamic with the whole Fenris-Merrill-Anders thing with Fenris being hardline anti-mage, Anders being hardline pro-mage, and Merrill representing a kind of crazy bad example while Varric sat in the middle as Mr. Everyman watching it all go to hell.  Sebastian could have represented the Chantry perspective.  I suppose they could have kept Aveline as your tie to the guard if they'd done a better job of playing up the whole Serial Killer chain, particularly the investigation and the steps taken to try and deal with him.  But the poor Qunari were really just a giant (heh) irrelevant distraction that badly fractured the game.

[DaySeeker]

In a world where not everyone has something to say and some doors never open (except on that one quest where they do), where you can't ask directions or clarification, where you play sometimes days, weeks, months apart, clear journals and clear markers are key.  A game is not enjoyable when you sell or drop an item you needed or could sell or use for crafting, but it wasn't clear.  You have a limited inventory and who know what this thing is, so bye!  There was that elf lady who need a thing and was wearing a dress in a town that has a bunch of elven ladies in dresses.  I can tell you I did not like in Baldur's Gate trying to figure out where things and people were.  Sometimes I couldn't understand what someone said, it was nice to look in the journal and see what it was they wanted and why.  I don't want DAI to be Where's Waldo and What the Heck Was He Talking About?

[In Exile]

A huge percentage of the Main Quests in DA2 only became understandably "Main" in hindsight, i.e. after you finished the thing.  The Rumors basically guided you to where you picked up the first "official" stage of each of them.

 

DA2 was a very weird game in a lot of respects.  I enjoyed it a lot and I don't think it was a bad game, I just think they had ahold of something that was really unfamiliar to them and due to the lack of experience with how to assemble something like that they made a lot of choices that wound up coming across as more than a little goofy.  It was initially set up a lot like Baldur's Gate 2--they started you off with an open goal and let you loose to explore around and fulfill it how you saw fit.  But where Baldur's Gate 2 pulled you into a tight and urgent plot line once you got to Spellhold and Irenicus stole your soul, DA2 kind of fell apart.  They knew where they wanted to go but not how to pull you into it.  That's where I think all the weird-ass "why is this a Main Quest?" quests came from.  You could almost see the design process: "Act 2 is about the Qunari, the PC needs to be involved with the Qunari, so we need some sort of Intro To The Qunari quest"  "But they could skip it" "Well then don't LET them skip it".  "Act 3 is about the mage revolt.  The PC needs to be involved with the mages and Templars.  Put a bunch of Mage V. Templar stuff in Act 1 to lead into that." "But they could SKIP it."  "Then don't LET them skip it."  "But they still may not have a lot of emotional investment."  "Then kill off their mum.  That'll do the job."  "We can't just kill their mum off out of the blue."  "Well then have a serial killer kill off their mum.  Plant some sort of serial killer intro in Act 1."  "BUT THEY COULD . . ."  "DON'T LET THEM SKIP IT."

 

They're too used to driving the PC instead of figuring out how to let the PC drive and it showed.

Addendum:  I think in the end what really got them was that they tried to cram too much into a framework too narrow to support it.  There was a LOT of lore development going on in that game (the Qunari and Izzy, the Mage v. Templar setup, Grey Wardens, Red Lyrium, the Dalish, Varric and Cassandra and the framed narrative) but it was all told from the rather narrow perspective of a personal development story.  If they'd cut the Qunari completely (much as I love them), dropped a couple of pretty pointless companions (Aveline and Izzy), and had a bigger, more intensive development to the Mage v. Templar situation, I think it would have been a much better story and a much better game.  They could have done a really good dynamic with the whole Fenris-Merrill-Anders thing with Fenris being hardline anti-mage, Anders being hardline pro-mage, and Merrill representing a kind of crazy bad example while Varric sat in the middle as Mr. Everyman watching it all go to hell.  Sebastian could have represented the Chantry perspective.  I suppose they could have kept Aveline as your tie to the guard if they'd done a better job of playing up the whole Serial Killer chain, particularly the investigation and the steps taken to try and deal with him.  But the poor Qunari were really just a giant (heh) irrelevant distraction that badly fractured the game.

 

I generally agree with your points, except that I think they should have cut out Mages vs. Templar and the Deep Roads expedition (using some other MacGuffin to drive the Hawke becomes rich plotline of Act II). If they wanted a human, personal story, then Hawke vs. the invading qunari is the one they needed to tell. In terms of the focus on poverty, suffering, downtrodden groups, etc. the proper focus should have been the CEs. 

[PsychoBlonde]

I generally agree with your points, except that I think they should have cut out Mages vs. Templar and the Deep Roads expedition (using some other MacGuffin to drive the Hawke becomes rich plotline of Act II). If they wanted a human, personal story, then Hawke vs. the invading qunari is the one they needed to tell. In terms of the focus on poverty, suffering, downtrodden groups, etc. the proper focus should have been the CEs. 

 

Mm, I'm going to have to disagree.  The Qunari (and believe me, it HURTS me to say this, because I LOVE them) have ALWAYS been a sideline whereas the Mage v. Templar thing has been a major big deal since the very beginning.  Qunari were basically nonexistent in Game 1, a largely irrelevant sideline (albeit a VERY well-written one that almost succeeded in stealing the show) in game 2, and look to be a sideline yet again in game 3.  They're too far away.  They're not attempting to conquer the world right now.  Like Flemeth, they're an ominous threat but they're not something you can build a whole game around.

 

What I think they could have done very successfully was to replace the whole "Hawke fights the Qunari and becomes The Champion" stage with "Hawke pursues the Serial Killer and Becomes the Champion" stage.  Flesh that out, strengthen the attachment to the Circle, the Chantry, the Templars, and everything else that was going on.  Tie the Red Lyrium Idol in with the Serial Killer.  Now you have a COHERENT 3-act plot that doesn't require a bunch of nonsensical artificial setup.  Finding the Lyrium Idol in act one pulls you into the Serial Killer mess in act 2 which gives you REAL emotional investment for act 3 when the mages and templars go batshit.  You've still set up for What Comes After, you've solidified and deepened the stuff that was actually important.  You can make the Qunari, Izzy, and Tallis into a good-sized DLC if you want to keep it that badly.

Ideally you'd also tie the elves in with the Red Lyrium Idol in some way.  Plenty of opportunities to do this--there's an ancient elven burial ground not far from the city, after all.  Those elves could have easily been in contact with whatever dwarves were in the area that built that ancient hidden thaig.  Hell, what if you FOUND the Eluvian that Merrill was obsessed with (or a piece of it) during the Deep Roads expedition?  Or what if the demon she made the deal with for the power to cleanse the mirror was the Rock Wraith you find down there?  Now the elven side plot is integrated into the main line and Merrill's little entree into Blood Magic becomes a Major Thing.  You can explore the Enigma of Kirkwall more thoroughly.

 

The more I think about it, the more I really begin to see that the Act 2 Qunari plotline (while excellent in itself) was what really fractured that game so badly.

[PsychoBlonde]

 

My biggest complaint was with the item return quests, where, upon finding some object, a quest would appear in your journal telling you what it was and to whom to deliver it.  And then, simply speaking to that person automatically returned the item and provided a reward.  There was almost no content in that quest at all, and I do think the game would have been improved simply by having those not be there.  If the choice is between those quests or no quests, I choose no quests.

I didn't mind those quests because they had a purpose in Act 1 (you needed to scrape up cash) and I saw them as an alternative to the equally dumb but more annoying board quests from Origins.  Yeah, given the option, I'd rather not have that type of filler at all, but if the choice is "awkward board quests that make you roam all over creation and collect stupid items and otherwise make no sense in context" and "occasionally pick things up and drop them off in another location", I'll take the latter.  At least they were streamlined to have a minimum of steps involved.

[Gtdef]

We should at least have a way to tidy up the journal. Not everyone cares to do all side quests. 

 

Rumors in DA2 were part of the main quest, so you couldn't avoid them even if you want to. You couldn't start the expedition without completing them all even if you cheated and got the 50 gold. But there are failed quests, or others than people can't be bothered with, that we should be able to erase from the journal.

 

The "clear the streets" quests were handled well. Didn't bloat your journal and only activated when they reached the last stage.

[Fast Jimmy]

I didn't mind those quests because they had a purpose in Act 1 (you needed to scrape up cash) and I saw them as an alternative to the equally dumb but more annoying board quests from Origins.  Yeah, given the option, I'd rather not have that type of filler at all, but if the choice is "awkward board quests that make you roam all over creation and collect stupid items and otherwise make no sense in context" and "occasionally pick things up and drop them off in another location", I'll take the latter.  At least they were streamlined to have a minimum of steps involved.

The goal of a quest is not to be as quickly completed as possible. The story behind it should not be so dismissable as to be skipable. The effect of finishing it should not be so minimal as to generate a generic reward and dialogue response.

To do so does nothing but waste the player's time. What you call having the "minimal amount of steps" I consider (extremely) thinly veiled padding of a game, to the point of dishonest representation to get to a higher number of playable hours.


Yes, side quests ARE often used to pad the length of RPGs. And yes, they are not usually earth-shattering in their scope. But to abandon any attempt at logic or pretense other than "walk to the appropriately marked arrow on your map" is borderline vulgar and insulting the intelligence of the gamer.

[PsychoBlonde]

 

The "clear the streets" quests were handled well. Didn't bloat your journal and only activated when they reached the last stage.

 

I really liked those and they may have been a result of a comment I made praising the original Pool of Radiance for its "clear an area" mechanic.  The only problem I had was that later in the game they gave you quests in areas where several discrete groups of mobs really couldn't spawn so you'd have to come back 4 and 5 times to finish the quest.

[PsychoBlonde]

Yes, side quests ARE often used to pad the length of RPGs. And yes, they are not usually earth-shattering in their scope. But to abandon any attempt at logic or pretense other than "walk to the appropriately marked arrow on your map" is borderline vulgar and insulting the intelligence of the gamer.

 

Oh, sure.  I just think that if you're going to have idiot quests, I'd rather them be as simple as possible.  Personally I prefer quests of this nature to be open-ended.  That actually adds to the exploration aspect, so instead of "I found the ONE BEAR SKIN in the ENTIRE GAME and now I have to ferry it to the Bear Skin Guy for my one-time reward", I'd rather meet Bear Skin Guy (or find that all bears drop skins) and find out, oh, I can sell any of the ones I find to Bear Skin Guy for several rewards.  It's easier to put a little story on that, too:  "Bring me X many and I can do this which will have some benefit for you".  And DAI is actually an ideal type of game to put that sort of thing in.  Other fun organic side quests can be things like "find all the locations (or the overlook) in this area to be able to see the Big Map of the area" or "kill X number of mobs in this area to make it safer".  They're equally simple, meaning they don't put a lot of work on the cinematic team (because real story quests require animations and apparently that's a BIG bottleneck).  But they can serve both a story and a gameplay purpose and give you a reason to explore more.

[Fast Jimmy]

Oh, sure.  I just think that if you're going to have idiot quests, I'd rather them be as simple as possible.  Personally I prefer quests of this nature to be open-ended.  That actually adds to the exploration aspect, so instead of "I found the ONE BEAR SKIN in the ENTIRE GAME and now I have to ferry it to the Bear Skin Guy for my one-time reward", I'd rather meet Bear Skin Guy (or find that all bears drop skins) and find out, oh, I can sell any of the ones I find to Bear Skin Guy for several rewards.  It's easier to put a little story on that, too:  "Bring me X many and I can do this which will have some benefit for you".  And DAI is actually an ideal type of game to put that sort of thing in.  Other fun organic side quests can be things like "find all the locations (or the overlook) in this area to be able to see the Big Map of the area" or "kill X number of mobs in this area to make it safer".  They're equally simple, meaning they don't put a lot of work on the cinematic team (because real story quests require animations and apparently that's a BIG bottleneck).  But they can serve both a story and a gameplay purpose and give you a reason to explore more.

Plus they can always slip a "kill a Dalish clan" in there, just for kicks.


It won't be a Dragon Age game without the genocide of some good ole' Dalish.

[In Exile]

Mm, I'm going to have to disagree.  The Qunari (and believe me, it HURTS me to say this, because I LOVE them) have ALWAYS been a sideline whereas the Mage v. Templar thing has been a major big deal since the very beginning.  Qunari were basically nonexistent in Game 1, a largely irrelevant sideline (albeit a VERY well-written one that almost succeeded in stealing the show) in game 2, and look to be a sideline yet again in game 3.  They're too far away.  They're not attempting to conquer the world right now.  Like Flemeth, they're an ominous threat but they're not something you can build a whole game around.

 

What I think they could have done very successfully was to replace the whole "Hawke fights the Qunari and becomes The Champion" stage with "Hawke pursues the Serial Killer and Becomes the Champion" stage.  Flesh that out, strengthen the attachment to the Circle, the Chantry, the Templars, and everything else that was going on.  Tie the Red Lyrium Idol in with the Serial Killer.  Now you have a COHERENT 3-act plot that doesn't require a bunch of nonsensical artificial setup.  Finding the Lyrium Idol in act one pulls you into the Serial Killer mess in act 2 which gives you REAL emotional investment for act 3 when the mages and templars go batshit.  You've still set up for What Comes After, you've solidified and deepened the stuff that was actually important.  You can make the Qunari, Izzy, and Tallis into a good-sized DLC if you want to keep it that badly.

Ideally you'd also tie the elves in with the Red Lyrium Idol in some way.  Plenty of opportunities to do this--there's an ancient elven burial ground not far from the city, after all.  Those elves could have easily been in contact with whatever dwarves were in the area that built that ancient hidden thaig.  Hell, what if you FOUND the Eluvian that Merrill was obsessed with (or a piece of it) during the Deep Roads expedition?  Or what if the demon she made the deal with for the power to cleanse the mirror was the Rock Wraith you find down there?  Now the elven side plot is integrated into the main line and Merrill's little entree into Blood Magic becomes a Major Thing.  You can explore the Enigma of Kirkwall more thoroughly.

 

The more I think about it, the more I really begin to see that the Act 2 Qunari plotline (while excellent in itself) was what really fractured that game so badly.

 

The problem is that Mages vs. Templar is just a B plot. There just isn't enough there to be able to carry a game by itself - which is why mages vs. templars is really just a background issue in DA:O, and never really comes up except tagentially as we deal with magic-related quests. It's always a background question as to whether the templars are right or not, whether mages should be granted more freedom... but all by itself there's no coherent way to create a sufficiently reactive RPG plot around this topic. Mages vs. templars features less in DA:O than Orzammar politics. 

 

The Qunari, on the other hand, pose a clear, grounded problem for the setting. DAII wanted to tell a small-scale, personal story. The invasion of a city by a foreign power is that small scale story. To the extent that the templars had to feature at all, they could really on feature as the B plot - a group of heavily armed and influential Knight Templars who happen to run the city more than they should given their religious vocation. 

 

I also think the Serial Killer Plot is a worse B plot - hunting down a serial killer doesn't have enough to sustain multiple quests - it's too small scale. 

[In Exile]

The goal of a quest is not to be as quickly completed as possible. The story behind it should not be so dismissable as to be skipable. The effect of finishing it should not be so minimal as to generate a generic reward and dialogue response.

To do so does nothing but waste the player's time. What you call having the "minimal amount of steps" I consider (extremely) thinly veiled padding of a game, to the point of dishonest representation to get to a higher number of playable hours.


Yes, side quests ARE often used to pad the length of RPGs. And yes, they are not usually earth-shattering in their scope. But to abandon any attempt at logic or pretense other than "walk to the appropriately marked arrow on your map" is borderline vulgar and insulting the intelligence of the gamer.

 

That's what the different Board quests were in DA:O, yet people somehow found them tolerable. 

[Fast Jimmy]

That's what the different Board quests were in DA:O, yet people somehow found them tolerable.

I don't see how a notice that reads "hey, there are bears attacking farm animals! I need some help getting rid of them" is anywhere NEAR the level of Hawke finding a dead body and returning it to a random NPC while saying "you should be more careful just leaving this lying around!" Nowhere NEAR the same level of sheer lunacy.

[Wulfram]

The main virtue of the board quests was how easy it was to ignore them