60 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

I don't see how a notice that reads "hey, there are bears attacking farm animals! I need some help getting rid of them" is anywhere NEAR the level of Hawke finding a dead body and returning it to a random NPC while saying "you should be more careful just leaving this lying around!" Nowhere NEAR the same level of sheer lunacy.

 

Well, (1) it's problematic because the bears only come into existence when you read the board, which is silly; and (2) it's just another way to create cheap content with absolutely no interaction or plot justification. 

People see this as different - fine. I don't, and a loud protest to the effect "but it IS different" doesn't really help me get it. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Well, (1) it's problematic because the bears only come into existence when you read the board, which is silly; and (2) it's just another way to create cheap content with absolutely no interaction or plot justification.

People see this as different - fine. I don't, and a loud protest to the effect "but it IS different" doesn't really help me get it.

While I do agree that the magical manifestation of the neccessary quest elements only appearing after you activate the quest was contrived (the first Baldur's Gate was very well designed in not doing this) and in no way deny it was side quest padding, the details help soothe the wounds that are filler content.

In the real world, it is entirely plausible for someone to seek to hire outside help in protecting their livestock from maurauding wildlife and using a centralized job center to get the help in doing so. It also makes sense that there is rewards outside of the actual posted job payment (getting access to spider venoms early from one of the Chantry board quests in Lothering could be the players first steps to using poisons).

Do I hold it up as the pinacle of side quest evolution? No, of course not. But saying the two are the same is silently endorsing the total logical disconnect that the DA2 fetch quests were - no attempt at plot or quest differentiation was made in the least. MMOs do it better than that.

[In Exile]

While I do agree that the magical manifestation of the neccessary quest elements only appearing after you activate the quest was contrived (the first Baldur's Gate was very well designed in not doing this) and in no way deny it was side quest padding, the details help soothe the wounds that are filler content.

In the real world, it is entirely plausible for someone to seek to hire outside help in protecting their livestock from maurauding wildlife and using a centralized job center to get the help in doing so. It also makes sense that there is rewards outside of the actual posted job payment (getting access to spider venoms early from one of the Chantry board quests in Lothering could be the players first steps to using poisons).

Do I hold it up as the pinacle of side quest evolution? No, of course not. But saying the two are the same is silently endorsing the total logical disconnect that the DA2 fetch quests were - no attempt at plot or quest differentiation was made in the least. MMOs do it better than that.

 

My problem is that I don't see a random bulletin board that dispenses money through a barely literate NPC to be really be any less of a logical disconnect than finding a random item and being able to know who would like it back. It's just a YMMV. 

[PsychoBlonde]

The problem is that Mages vs. Templar is just a B plot. There just isn't enough there to be able to carry a game by itself - which is why mages vs. templars is really just a background issue in DA:O, and never really comes up except tagentially as we deal with magic-related quests. It's always a background question as to whether the templars are right or not, whether mages should be granted more freedom... but all by itself there's no coherent way to create a sufficiently reactive RPG plot around this topic. Mages vs. templars features less in DA:O than Orzammar politics. 

 

The Qunari, on the other hand, pose a clear, grounded problem for the setting. DAII wanted to tell a small-scale, personal story. The invasion of a city by a foreign power is that small scale story. To the extent that the templars had to feature at all, they could really on feature as the B plot - a group of heavily armed and influential Knight Templars who happen to run the city more than they should given their religious vocation. 

 

I also think the Serial Killer Plot is a worse B plot - hunting down a serial killer doesn't have enough to sustain multiple quests - it's too small scale. 

 

Heh, scale is not an intrinsic feature of any plot.  You can blow up any of these, easily, to be more than big enough to carry the weight of an entire game all by themselves.

The problem with the Qunari plot isn't the scale, it's that they placed it in between "we found Red Lyrium Idol" and "Meredith gets a hold of Red Lyrium Idol and goes batshit" without connecting it to either circumstance in any way, so you wind up with this big hole between Act I and Act III where the plot action runs down this cool awesome but sadly unrelated side street and bogs down.  Then when the whole Mage V. Templar thing starts to heat up all you can really do is scratch your head over it.  

[In Exile]

Heh, scale is not an intrinsic feature of any plot.  You can blow up any of these, easily, to be more than big enough to carry the weight of an entire game all by themselves.

The problem with the Qunari plot isn't the scale, it's that they placed it in between "we found Red Lyrium Idol" and "Meredith gets a hold of Red Lyrium Idol and goes batshit" without connecting it to either circumstance in any way, so you wind up with this big hole between Act I and Act III where the plot action runs down this cool awesome but sadly unrelated side street and bogs down.  Then when the whole Mage V. Templar thing starts to heat up all you can really do is scratch your head over it.  

I agree with you entirely that the plot as written has a huge problem because I and III link up and II does not. I just happen to think that I and III suffer from enough problems that they are the ones that should have been ejected. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

My problem is that I don't see a random bulletin board that dispenses money through a barely literate NPC to be really be any less of a logical disconnect than finding a random item and being able to know who would like it back. It's just a YMMV. 

Lothering did do this fairly badly.  It repopulated the area outside the town based on that Chanter's Board quests, and then it did it again.

 

I'll concede that.  The Chanter's Boards in the rest of the game didn't bother me much, but Lothering's was quite silly.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

I'd love to be able to edit/create my own journal entries, put map markers (semi-open world, yay), reference them in journal.

 

well... one can dream.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'd love to be able to edit/create my own journal entries, put map markers (semi-open world, yay), reference them in journal.

well... one can dream.

We shouldn't have to dream for features that were in games 15+ years ago.

[Fast Jimmy]

We shouldn't have to dream for features that were in games 15+ years ago.

"Requires a keyboard. Doesn't jive with console interface. Toss it in the trash can."

[Sylvius the Mad]

"Requires a keyboard. Doesn't jive with console interface. Toss it in the trash can."

You could do it with an analog stick and voice recognition.

[Enigmatick]

You could do it with an analog stick and voice recognition.

You don't even need voice recognition, you could just make voiced journal entries.

[Fast Jimmy]

You could do it with an analog stick and voice recognition.

Eh. Have you ever used Dragon? Especially for fictional words? "Messy" is putting it mildly.

You don't even need voice recognition, you could just make voiced journal entries.

This could work... but I'm not sure how easy it would be, as labeling the dozens of different audio files to be anything near helpful to search through would be just as tedious and using a controller to type all the information in without a keyboard in the first place.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Eh. Have you ever used Dragon? Especially for fictional words? "Messy" is putting it mildly.

I don't speak, if I can help it.

I interact primarily using text. Even with my spouse.

[Enigmatick]

I don't speak, if I can help it.

I interact primarily using text. Even with my spouse.

Sometimes I honestly wonder if you're human.

[Fast Jimmy]

I don't speak, if I can help it.
I interact primarily using text. Even with my spouse.

I'm actually very similar. My primary form of communication with my family, friends and wife is through texting. Although, ironically enough, my job requires I talk with people verbally on a constant basis. It's something I do well, even when doing public speaking, if I have a set of topics or concepts to go over. Then I can be chatty-Cathy. But for idle small talk, I'm next to worthless and I always prefer email or texts. Go figure.


But back on topic, voice recognition software is nowwhere near good enough to replace human typing. Not to mention I don't want to have to talk with my computer while I compose what I would want in the journal. I'd rather type it out, review it, make changes, figure out if I will understand it did weeks from now when I go back and look at it, then submit. If I had to do editting via speech recognition... ugh. That would be the ultimate in time wasting.

[In Exile]

I'm actually very similar. My primary form of communication with my family, friends and wife is through texting. Although, ironically enough, my job requires I talk with people verbally on a constant basis. It's something I do well, even when doing public speaking, if I have a set of topics or concepts to go over. Then I can be chatty-Cathy. But for idle small talk, I'm next to worthless and I always prefer email or texts. Go figure.

I hate phones. Love speaking in person, prefer email/texts for distance, loathe phones. Something about hearing someone's voice but not being able to see their face/body language makes me really uncomfortable. 

[Fast Jimmy]

I hate phones. Love speaking in person, prefer email/texts for distance, loathe phones. Something about hearing someone's voice but not being able to see their face/body language makes me really uncomfortable.

Not to mention talking at the same time. So many social accidents happen over phones. I've found that the only people who really like talking on them are ones who talk for long periods of time without the other person needing to interject. Which , to me, isn't much of a conversation.

But we are wildly off topic now.

[In Exile]

Good point. Back on-topic:
 

Lothering did do this fairly badly.  It repopulated the area outside the town based on that Chanter's Board quests, and then it did it again.

 

I'll concede that.  The Chanter's Boards in the rest of the game didn't bother me much, but Lothering's was quite silly.

 

The Chanters Board's elsewhere were not so bad - Denerim and (especially) Redcliffe made sense, though they were light on justification. I thought the Mage's Collective was a huge problem - it's basically a free-wheeling group of apostates going around doing whateves. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Good point. Back on-topic:
 

 
The Chanters Board's elsewhere were not so bad - Denerim and (especially) Redcliffe made sense, though they were light on justification. I thought the Mage's Collective was a huge problem - it's basically a free-wheeling group of apostates going around doing whateves.

But, to their credit, they "self-corrected" rumored cases of blood magic or maleficarums. So I could understand others supporting them and not ratting them out to the Templars - they essentially were everything Thedas would want from their free Mages.

[simpatikool]

I really liked the codex (Codex?) from DAO. I liked how it read and its functionality, and I enjoyed unlocking items for it. DA2, I never used it at all.

[Fast Jimmy]

I really liked the codex (Codex?) from DAO. I liked how it read and its functionality, and I enjoyed unlocking items for it. DA2, I never used it at all.

For some reason, I found this to be the case as well. I spent a lot of time in DA:O's codex, checking of new entries as they were added. But in DA2, I found myself only visiting the Codex when I was purposefully intent on doing so. I can't recall specific differences in the presentation or UI, yet I was very rarely compelled to check it in DA2, while It was periodically done by me in DA:O.

[OrayMoor]

I would love to have the option to write my comments on the quest that apear on the journal, I think it could be very cool : )

[In Exile]

But, to their credit, they "self-corrected" rumored cases of blood magic or maleficarums. So I could understand others supporting them and not ratting them out to the Templars - they essentially were everything Thedas would want from their free Mages.

 

It's not their morality, it's the apparent fact that they are an obscenely wealthy collective of apostates operating relatively openly in locations across Thedas. 

[In Exile]

For some reason, I found this to be the case as well. I spent a lot of time in DA:O's codex, checking of new entries as they were added. But in DA2, I found myself only visiting the Codex when I was purposefully intent on doing so. I can't recall specific differences in the presentation or UI, yet I was very rarely compelled to check it in DA2, while It was periodically done by me in DA:O.

 

I heavily dislike the codex, finding it to be an info-dump that substitutes for properly introducing the information in-game. It's essentially a form of storytelling by archaeology, like Bestheda games loves so very much. 

[Fast Jimmy]

I heavily dislike the codex, finding it to be an info-dump that substitutes for properly introducing the information in-game. It's essentially a form of storytelling by archaeology, like Bestheda games loves so very much.

If I could go back, I'd probably double major in Video Game Archaelogy in college. So I really enjoy it.

I do find it realistic that the PC finds books. And I like how the game doesn't make you physically keep them in your inventory, but rather saves the two paragraphs to refer to later (since, honestly, what book is two paragraphs? Even Dr. Seuss puts that to shame).