537 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yes actually they are... all mages in Tevinter are free and comprise the upper class of their civilization. Even Gaider said that a slave that has magic is uplifted along with their families (Very similar to the dwarven caste system) and that mage will almost certainly have a higher spot in their society than a rich mundane.

 

The Circles in Tevinter and an honor and aren't forced. Its probably like a school to train mages and once they 'graduate' they are probably assigned a master to teach them further. DA2 made several references to a master and apprentice system in Tevinter.

WoT makes it perfectly clear that mage slaves that are made Liberati are STILL not considered citizens, which means they are below the Soporati class of Tevinter citizens.

(It also makes it perfectly clear that only a judge by the slave's master approval, or the master's will, can set a slave fre, so that goes for mage slaves aswell. But we are ignoring the existance of mage slaves still).

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Again just listen to Gaider's interview he says as plan as day that even if you're a slave if you have magic you and your family are uplifted in that society and that mage is going to have a higher status in that society than the richest noble mundanes. He says the uplifting is done automatically and for everyone. Fenris' sister was a child when he last saw her so its completely possible that her powers didn't surface hence why her and the family were still slaves.

 

As for their title the fact that they can join the Circles of Tevinter (Something that is a major honor) kind of shows that citizenship can be granted, because I highly doubt they'd allow non-Tevinter citizens to be apart of there most honored social positions.

[General TSAR]

How would that work ? Saarebas are treated like weapons , they have no training and will kill themselves if they disobey the Qun.

That's the whole point. 

 

More than a guy burning himself to death?

No concept of self or freedom or emotion. 

[Allazor]

That's the whole point. 

 

 

No concept of self or freedom or emotion. 

 

So for you, they should be a living, subservient , inhumane weapons. So for whom do you think those "thralls" would fight for ? Chantry-ass-kissing-pious human nobles and rulers of Thedas, because they are so much better having all that power ( like they need even more of it ), i even have the idea what they do with it . They would opress the peasantry ( even more then before - taxes not paid on time = burn few houses to the ground, kill few peasants), kill their enemies in broad daylight , because they could tell the "thrall" to kill itself after completing the task, they would wage wars on their kings , queens and neighbours and every noble house would possess an small contingent of those "thralls", the more you have the more powerful you are.

So in short, you think every mages studying in a Circle Tower arts of healing and elemental magics for years and fully able to control themselves and their potential aren't worth the whole effort, because their powers can be use to support claims, agendas and sick ambitions of those with money, power and ruling families of their respected kingdoms. Did i got that right ? Or do you have other things in mind ?

[General TSAR]

 

So for you, they should be a living, subservient , inhumane weapons. So for whom do you think those "thralls" would fight for ? Chantry-ass-kissing-pious human nobles and rulers of Thedas, because they are so much better having all that power ( like they need even more of it ), i even have the idea what they do with it . They would opress the peasantry ( even more then before - taxes not paid on time = burn few houses to the ground, kill few peasants), kill their enemies in broad daylight , because they could tell the "thrall" to kill itself after completing the task, they would wage wars on their kings , queens and neighbours and every noble house would possess an small contingent of those "thralls", the more you have the more powerful you are.

So in short, you think every mages studying in a Circle Tower arts of healing and elemental magics for years and fully able to control themselves and their potential aren't worth the whole effort, because their powers can be use to support claims, agendas and sick ambitions of those with money, power and ruling families of their respected kingdoms. Did i got that right ? Or do you have other things in mind ?

 

Pretty much, except the part where they won't be used in noble feuds as they are property of the Chantry and the Order to be used against enemies of the faith and to assist the faithful. 

[Allazor]

Pretty much, except the part where they won't be used in noble feuds as they are property of the Chantry and the Order to be used against enemies of the faith and to assist the faithful. 

 

Oh yea because the Templar order won't abuse that power nor will the Chantry ? If one mage can abuse his or her power when they feel threatened, what do you think will happen to subhuman thralls you want them to be, when a Templars start beating one of them ?

Why he is beating the the Thrall , well because he has a bad day and he can and he knows the mage won't do anything to him but the demons in the fade have better ideas and they can cast spells to full potential of even untrained mage. And on the battlefield, the group of mages will be surrounded and will loose their "handler", the fear will take over them because they wouldn't know what to do , because nobody taught them that and say hi to abomination team. Because without training they can't protect themselves even in weakened state and demons will sence their desperation through the Fade and flock to them like sharks to bloody meat. Only tranquility can save a mage form demons but he is no longer a mage at that point, but a powerless person with a talent for enchanting.

 

No one will stop Nations of Thedas from founding their own mage core, becasue nobles in country like Orlais don't like the influnce of the Devine over anything they coudl get their hands on , so if the Empress or Emperor staged a hostile takeover with the nobles of every place where Chantry keept it's mages in Orlais, then they would have their core and could do anything their want with it . If you think fear of the Devine or Maker will stop the powerfull of this world from doing that you are wrong, at least in Orlais , The Masked Empire said that crearly .

[zenrockoutkast]

The way I see it, a lot of the hysteria surrounding magic is due to Andrastian lore.  Chantry Zealots go around preaching their own selfish version of the Chant and making mages out to all be dangerous and for everyone to be cautious and distrustful of them at all times.  What this leads to is a lot of mages like Kelli from Origins (the one who thought magic was a curse) and overzealous templars like Meredith who treat mages more like dangerous explosives than human beings.

 

I suspect that at some point (maybe in Inquisition, maybe later) there's going to be a major revelation about Andraste and/or the chantry, maybe that she was a mage or she used blood magic against the magisters (but only to stop the use of blood magic).  My guess, however, is that she was actually possessed by a benevolent spirit of the fade (whether or not they actually exist still being debatable) and that she didn't want mages to be feared, but rather taught advanced magic to mages so that they could use it to better mankind unlike the Magisters.

 

That being said, I don't think Templars could ever exist as they do now, mages would never accept it after Kirkwall and the annulments that followed.  I could see a new Templar order being taken over by mages themselves, as they would be less likely to hold false and prejudicial views about mages.  I think a lot of mages would reject any Templar order, mage-run or not, and the question of how to handle apostates would still be much debated.

[General TSAR]

 

Oh yea because the Templar order won't abuse that power nor will the Chantry ?

Correct, the reformed Templar Order will safeguard and maintain the WMDs, the WMDs will be indoctrinated to either fight to the death or commit mass suicide to avoid capture like the Qunari mages.

 

Also holy war will be declared on anyone and everyone who transgresses against the Chantry. 

 

It's really quite that simple. 

[Eveangaline]

Fenris's sister is a poor example because we know little about her status, including when she manifested (which is quite relevant). What little we do know has nothing in common with the Andrastian circle system, though- so either you're wrong because WoG that may or may not contradict third-issue factors of DA2 or you are wrong because DA2 doesn't support your claim of the Tevinter Circle.

Neither does any other source, come to think of it.

While I agree the circle system isn't the same, another example to Mage slaves is the fact feynrial was kidnapped to be a slave by people who knew about his magic, and doesn't fenris say about mages that they're "even willing to collar their own"

[SgtSteel91]

I don't know how I'm going to approach this issue in Inquisition. I guess I'll let the game make its case for choosing mages or templars and then decide where to go from there. I really hope there is an option to fight, neutralize, and absorb both, though.

[Allazor]

Correct, the reformed Templar Order will safeguard and maintain the WMDs, the WMDs will be indoctrinated to either fight to the death or commit mass suicide to avoid capture like the Qunari mages.

 

Also holy war will be declared on anyone and everyone who transgresses against the Chantry. 

 

It's really quite that simple. 

 

So you would rob a whole cast of people, all over Thedas, from the basic rights to be themselves because they are Mages ? Wow and how will justify it ? By quoting the Chant of Light , who we know from the game, was changed by the pious fouls in Val Royeaux after the war on the Dales, so holy text my arse. When we will decide the fate of the Chantry, no matter what, i will support the Divine who will relinquish her power to call and Exalted Marches and will leave the mages to the Inquisition, i think we will do a better job at governing them then anyone who will seat at a golden throne in the Grand Cathedral . Also the Dalish will be compensated if they help me in the war effort, i don't promise the Dales but i will see all the options and who will they ****** off the most. Mages will belong to no one but themselves and Inquisition will train it's own blood mage hunters to police the populus and make it safe. 

My plan:

- everybody study at the Circle and goes through Harrowing ( when they pass they are free to leave or choose to stay and become in a future a teacher )

- they can inherit their family lands and titles if : they are the last of the line; they are the oldest and are deemed emotionaly and psychicaly satble ( in both cases )

-right of tranquility as punishemnt only ( exeption is made when mage deems themselves unstable  and wants to go trought the right for safety measures; First Enchanter and Inqusition representative must both approve )

- mages are prohibited from joing army as active combatants , they can only work as healers ( they have to volunteer out of their own will )

- they can work as local healer all over the World but they have to register a practice with the local powers

- If they join ranks of institutions like the Wardens or the Inqusition, inner codes of conduct apply to them, no outside power polices them, the organization takes it upon itslef.

- Mages can marry officialy and have children ( they can marry before a representative of the Inqusition or local highest authority ,if the Chantry refuses to marry the mage and his love )

-Mages cannot be officials of any religious organization in Thedas

- They can work in non magic connected jobs and rise in the ranks of their communities, if they so wish too

- The first Echanters have a seat on the rulers council ( all of them have a seat, but they can cast only one vote, like the Chantries revered mothers, they all get a seat but only one vote )

- Mages officialy register themsleves with the Inqusition outpost when they come to the province and when they leave ( rest of the info is registered according to local laws by local authorities )

- Every prison has special staff for handling mages who break the law ( only use of blood magic ,if proven, is punishable by the rite of tranquility )

- any people acting of an ill will against a innocent mage willl be punished accordingly 

- Chantry will be held accountable of every anti-mage action preformed by it's members or staff, and punished  accordingly, the same goes for mages acting against the Chantry .

 

 

 

Woow that is why i need Josephine XD to write it down

[zenrockoutkast]

 

So you would rob a whole cast of people, all over Thedas, from the basic rights to be themselves because they are Mages ? Wow and how will justify it ? By quoting the Chant of Light , who we know from the game, was changed by the pious fouls in Val Royeaux after the war on the Dales, so holy text my arse. When we will decide the fate of the Chantry, no matter what, i will support the Divine who will relinquish her power to call and Exalted Marches and will leave the mages to the Inquisition, i think we will do a better job at governing them then anyone who will seat at a golden throne in the Grand Cathedral . Also the Dalish will be compensated if they help me in the war effort, i don't promise the Dales but i will see all the options and who will they ****** off the most. Mages will belong to no one but themselves and Inquisition will train it's own blood mage hunters to police the populus and make it safe. 

My plan:

- everybody study at the Circle and goes through Harrowing ( when they pass they are free to leave or choose to stay and become in a future a teacher )

- they can inherit their family lands and titles if : they are the last of the line; they are the oldest and are deemed emotionaly and psychicaly satble ( in both cases )

-right of tranquility as punishemnt only ( exeption is made when mage deems themselves unstable  and wants to go trought the right for safety measures; First Enchanter and Inqusition representative must both approve )

- mages are prohibited from joing army as active combatants , they can only work as healers ( they have to volunteer out of their own will )

- they can work as local healer all over the World but they have to register a practice with the local powers

- If they join ranks of institutions like the Wardens or the Inqusition, inner codes of conduct apply to them, no outside power polices them, the organization takes it upon itslef.

- Mages can marry officialy and have children ( they can marry before a representative of the Inqusition or local highest authority ,if the Chantry refuses to marry the mage and his love )

-Mages cannot be officials of any religious organization in Thedas

- They can work in non magic connected jobs and rise in the ranks of their communities, if they so wish too

- The first Echanters have a seat on the rulers council ( all of them have a seat, but they can cast only one vote, like the Chantries revered mothers, they all get a seat but only one vote )

- Mages officialy register themsleves with the Inqusition outpost when they come to the province and when they leave ( rest of the info is registered according to local laws by local authorities )

- Every prison has special staff for handling mages who break the law ( only use of blood magic ,if proven, is punishable by the rite of tranquility )

- any people acting of an ill will against a innocent mage willl be punished accordingly 

- Chantry will be held accountable of every anti-mage action preformed by it's members or staff, and punished  accordingly, the same goes for mages acting against the Chantry .

 

 

 

Woow that is why i need Josephine XD to write it down

 

I'm not sure I agree with using the RoT at all.  Mages who have had the rite reversed all seem to agree that it's a horrifying experience and have no desire to go back (not only Karl, weren't there some in a recent novel who had actually agreed to it and said basically the same thing?)  It seems so innocuous because the Tranquil seem peaceful and don't seem to object at all while in a Tranquil state, but the truth seems a lot more insidious. 

[Gervaise]

I have to admit that one of the few things I agreed with Adrian on was about the Rite of Tranquility.   

 

To use it to neuter the mind of a mage who is afraid of their powers, largely because of years of indoctrination, is appalling.   Far better to educate them to control their emotions and have greater confidence in themselves.   If they don't wish to undergo the harrowing, then simply debar them from using magic.   Apparently there are even herbs they can take to keep them from dreaming, so assisting in keeping them from the gaze of demons.

 

As for using it as a punishment, well now we know it can be reversed, I suppose you could use it as a means of deterring magical crimes by temporarily subjecting them to the Rite and then restoring them after a period of years, although there is no guarantee they wouldn't be vengeful as a result.     However, as Adrian says, "if you fear us so much then kill us.   Don't pretend that killing everything that makes us human isn't the same thing!"    As someone who invariably plays a mage I would definitely rather die fighting than surrender and be made tranquil.

[DarthLaxian]

So what do you guys think? Have any other options or ideas of your own you'd like to add? I'm all ears

 

There are other options, like:

 

A mage state (all mages are allowed to go their to train and live there - but they are only allowed to leave this country after taking the Harrowing (or another new test))

 

Or freedom after training at the circles (Harrowing/similar test is a must of course, too)

 

greetings LAX

ps: Why does everyone assume that mage freedom leads to Abominations - I would argue that it is the circle/chantry/templar-system of oppression that does that (after all: Trained mages know that letting themselves be possessed is not a good idea and they will fight it - but a desperate mage who is about to die anyway (because templars want to kill him/her or make him/her tranquil) has nothing to lose and will take the risk of accepting aid from a demon and even allow himself to be possessed!)

[Allazor]

I'm not sure I agree with using the RoT at all.  Mages who have had the rite reversed all seem to agree that it's a horrifying experience and have no desire to go back (not only Karl, weren't there some in a recent novel who had actually agreed to it and said basically the same thing?)  It seems so innocuous because the Tranquil seem peaceful and don't seem to object at all while in a Tranquil state, but the truth seems a lot more insidious. 

i'm aware of that but this a punishment for blood mages only , so after the bad they done they could still attone for it in some manner or do you think we should just kill them when we find them ?

[General TSAR]

 

So you would rob a whole cast of people, all over Thedas, from the basic rights to be themselves because they are Mages ? Wow 

Yes.

 

Needs of the many vs. needs of the few.

and how will justify it ?

By pointing at recent history and past history. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yes.

By pointing at recent history and past history. 

History showed they can't be controled they are in circles and still cause lot mess even qunari can't do that i would even support their system if not that their mage tried destroy world and almost did.

[Allazor]

Chantry is as corrupt and filled with people with sick ambitions as any other ruling or noble house in Thedas. They are not some pure, angels and guardians of justice they just want to populous to see them as such, those people are no better then blood mages, because they too sacrifice innocence to make themselves strong ( i mean their  enemies and people better them that stad in their way ) If you need data please watch this movie :

 

http://dragonage.wik...n_of_the_Seeker

 

And if you still want to give that power to the Chantry, well in your place i would start studying demons , because it is good to know what will rip you apart when the time comes.

- That was a pride demon* chokes on oneself's blood* *dies*

[frylock23]

My option:

 

Make the Circles independent entities that are required for all mage-talented children. You have to learn to control yourself and your talents, but once you have achieved that you are free so long as you maintain contact.

 

Make the Inquisition an independent mage policing order consisting of both mages and templars whose job it is to deal with supernatural threats coming from both rogue mages and from areas where the Veil is thinned.

 

Keep the Chantry responsible for training Templars. That makes the people less wary of the Inquisition with mages involved who will have been Circle trained ... it makes the policing order itself a true compromise and joint effort between the two factions.

[Elite Midget]

The threat of Blood Magic, Blood Mages and Abominations is too great for them to be unchecked. They need to be taught the whole "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" and a way to curb abuse before it can become a reality. Too many fall to the temptations that the Spirits offer them, even "Good" Spirits can be all corrupting as shown with how Anders had let a "Good" one inside him.

[MrDuck]

I just love how people tend to generalise things such as: The Mages/Templars are evil or the Chantry is corrupt. Oh humanity, how I love you so

[DarthLaxian]

i'm aware of that but this a punishment for blood mages only , so after the bad they done they could still attone for it in some manner or do you think we should just kill them when we find them ?

 

I dissagree - why kill blood-mages at all? (because the chantry says so?)

 

I mean, as long as a blood-mage only uses his power "for good" (or at least not for evil - like controlling a Noble or even a King etc.), why should we go after them? (I myself normally play blood-mages because in a world with templars, I would like to be able to fight them, without losing my magic if the get close and I would like to be able to stay fighting longer (secondary powersource if your mana runs dry!))

 

greetings LAX

[EmperorSahlertz]

While I agree the circle system isn't the same, another example to Mage slaves is the fact feynrial was kidnapped to be a slave by people who knew about his magic, and doesn't fenris say about mages that they're "even willing to collar their own"

Ssshhhh we are pretending that none of that exist.

[Skymaple]

I think that the best solution woud be to step aside from the Chantry and all of that...

 

Mages should be free, I don't think they are a major threat when they are free. Just think about it... how many apostates were that bad in the past games? I mean, Anders (DA:A) and Morrigan, for example... they don't go all crazy killing people just because they're mages...

 

Ofc, Anders ends up blowing the Chantry, and I don't support that, but that was a reaction against the abuse of the templars (although he should have stayed quiet)

The problem then, is in the Chantry and how they treat mages. If they were free (but watched over, ofc) I don't think they would cause any troubles.

 

And those who cause them? They are as dangerous as other people, in my opinion (kind of), thouse could be hunted down, but let the others alone!

I mean, killing some person with a fireball or with a sword is not that different, is it? It's murder and as such it should be punished in the same way...

 

Maybe it's too naive to think it'd work, but I really think it would: there would be no reason to rebel, no reason to go crazy, each could live their lives

 

(I'm not a native speaker, so if I there're some typos/mistakes, sorry)

[Elite Midget]

Errr.. Those are rare exceptions. In DA2 if you spare a Blood Mage cult they appear later in Act 3 now fully corrupted by their Blood Magic, causing issues for Kirkwall and the Circle itself(They were stealing members away to bring them over to Blood Magic), and may even be Abominations with how insane they've become. They also had no issue turning on their own benefactors for not agreeing with "Kill Hawke, now!" demand.

 

Mages need to have Freedom, yes, but they also need to be taught to control their powers and checks and balances put in place to prevent surges of Abominations and rampant Blood Magic abuse.

 

Mages are also people so they aren't all perfect and there will be those that slip or simply want to watch the world burn. The difference between the regular crazy person and a crazy Blood Mage is that Blood Mages are ridiculously powerful and can easily slaughter entire villages on their own if they wanted.

 

 

I dissagree - why kill blood-mages at all? (because the chantry says so?)

 

I mean, as long as a blood-mage only uses his power "for good" (or at least not for evil - like controlling a Noble or even a King etc.), why should we go after them? (I myself normally play blood-mages because in a world with templars, I would like to be able to fight them, without losing my magic if the get close and I would like to be able to stay fighting longer (secondary powersource if your mana runs dry!))

 

greetings LAX

Blood Magic has almost always been shown to corrupt and lead to Abominations being created. Only very few exceptions exist of the rule.

 

Heck, without Hawke than Merrill would have become an Abomination. She even gets tempted by the Demon's offer for more power in that one Quest when you went into the Fade.