537 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

I find emigration intrinsically preferable to imprisonment. However, the contiinued existence of the phylacteries would make sure those mages continue to hold a grudge. There can be no solution to this conflict that does not restrict the use of the phylacteries. Only if there's a way for mages to get out from under the Orlesian Chantry's thumbs (and that of similar organizations) for good will there be a chance for co-existence. I have occasionally envisioned a sanctuary for mages, something like a mage city somewhere.

 

I strongly disagree. Phylacteries are one of the most effective and yet least intrusive means for providing oversight and enabling jurisdiction on mages without far more costly and intrusive costs on both parties. They are the single most reliable and accurate enabler for mages to be held accountable to legitimate authorities.

 

Phylacteries are an effective registration and tracking system for mages, which should remain a core component of any compromise regulatory regime which takes mundane interests and concerns of mages evading authorities to heart.

[Hellion Rex]

I strongly disagree. Phylacteries are one of the most effective and yet least intrusive means for providing oversight and enabling jurisdiction on mages without far more costly and intrusive costs on both parties. They are the single most reliable and accurate enabler for mages to be held accountable to legitimate authorities.

 

Phylacteries are an effective registration and tracking system for mages, which should remain a core component of any compromise regulatory regime which takes mundane interests and concerns of mages evading authorities to heart.

I'm not sure about "least intrusive" since you can remotely cast spells on the mage using the phylactery.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm not sure about "least intrusive" since you can remotely cast spells on the mage using the phylactery.

 

Spells of limited effect, and primarily for tracking purposes. No one is casting down fireballs on them or paralyzing them or using magical shock collars or otherwise.

 

On the other hand, the alternative means to having constant tracking of someone no matter where they are in this setting would be to virtually handcuff an observer to the subject and allow no separation (and thus the ability to slip the observer). Then that observer would need redundancies, safeguards, and protections and checks to ensure that they aren't turned and made complicit. Having an observer standing in the room while you try to do anything would be far more intrusive than the current method.

 

The means needed to keep and effective and functional registration and tracking system would rely on means far more intrusive than what by and large amounts to carrying around a transmitter chip.

[Pierce Miller]

And what stops me from doing that again systematically? Nope it doesn't make you world-destructive insane creature that destroy everything on their way besides ,that is how societes are built on sacrifices besides mages are nothing more than trouble.

And also evolved creatures better in every single way, Why do demons possess them? Because they're more powerful. You would be culling that which can't be culled, a far superior force.

[Palidane]

Personally, I don't see why we can't just reform the old Circle system. All we need to do is adjust the power dynamics between Mages and Temples, maybe have the Chantry stop teaching certain things. That seems the most practical and easily implemented solution.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And also evolved creatures better in every single way, Why do demons possess them? Because they're more powerful. You would be culling that which can't be culled, a far superior force.

You don't have a firm grip on evolution and biology in general do you?

[LobselVith8]

I find emigration intrinsically preferable to imprisonment. However, the contiinued existence of the phylacteries would make sure those mages continue to hold a grudge. There can be no solution to this conflict that does not restrict the use of the phylacteries. Only if there's a way for mages to get out from under the Orlesian Chantry's thumbs (and that of similar organizations) for good will there be a chance for co-existence. I have occasionally envisioned a sanctuary for mages, something like a mage city somewhere.

 

Well, the mages in the rebellion are already out from under the thumb of the Andrastian Chantry, and the Inquisitor has the opportunity to help either the templars or the mages in the Mage-Templar War. The regional victory that is possible will apparently allow either group to become part of the Inquisition, which is neutral from the Chantry. I suppose it's something of a moot point to debate a hypothetical solution when people will continually disagree on the morality and methods of the system, but at least it seems that Inquisition will allow players to side with their respective faction to bring about a favored outcome.

[TheKomandorShepard]

And also evolved creatures better in every single way, Why do demons possess them? Because they're more powerful. You would be culling that which can't be culled, a far superior force.

Not rly mages were crushed by non-mages not to mention technology.If i wanted world with insane and destrucrive but more powerful creatures i would side with archdemon.Mage is unstable bomb his danger consists on that it can explode at any moment there is no problem in "defusing" them problem is in that no one ever bothered to do that.

[Pierce Miller]

You don't have a firm grip on evolution and biology in general do you?

Mages are obviously the more evolved version of their species because it's a massive advantage, Guess you think swinging a piece of pointy metal at your enemies is better than manipulating the forces of the world with your mind?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Mages are obviously the more evolved version of their species because it's a massive advantage, Guess you think swinging a piece of pointy metal at your enemies is better than manipulating the forces of the world with your mind?

Mages have a massive DISADVANTAGE in terms of survival. They are prey for demons. If they are actually an evolution of humans (which they aren't), they would have evolved themselves to become LESS adapt at survival. Which needless to say, is not how evolution works.

 

Whereas normal humans are apex predators, mages are forever prey to demons.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mages are obviously the more evolved version of their species because it's a massive advantage,

 

That's not quite how evolution works, especially when magic isn't genetic, but whateves.

 

 

Guess you think swinging a piece of pointy metal at your enemies is better than manipulating the forces of the world with your mind?

 

Remind us which is the dominant species on Thedas?

 

And that's not even considering those pointy metal weilders who can shut down your ability to manipulate the forces of the world with your mind.

[Pierce Miller]

Mages have a massive DISADVANTAGE in terms of survival. They are prey for demons. If they are actually an evolution of humans (which they aren't), they would have evolved themselves to become LESS adapt at survival. Which needless to say, is not how evolution works.

 

Whereas normal humans are apex predators, mages are forever prey to demons.

So you're saying the only reason mages are locked up is because of the demon threat? of course it's not! Look at Tevinter, it's an incredibly powerful country and yet it's run by the magisterium, how do you think a country functions if it has abominations running constantly through the streets? Do you think it might be because Tevinter mages are trained properly and it's an incredibly rare occurrence.

 

Thus, Mages are the evolution of their species. They have one disadvantage, a disadvantage caused entirely by their superiority sure but the pros far outweigh the cons.

[mikeymoonshine]

The idea that one would somehow evolve magical powers makes absolutely no sense if we are talking real world genetics and evolution in Thedas (if it even exists) obviously doesn't work the same way. 

 

I don't think the fact that demons want mages would necessarily be the deciding factor though. Traits can be evolved that have negative effects as well as positive one's, it really just depends on whether or not the one's with those traits survive and reproduce.  Magic doesn't seem to be genetic though (or at least not completely) so It's obviously not down to evolution. 

 

Also, nothing that is alive is more or less evolved than anything else. 

[Samahl]

You would think if mages were the "evolved" form of humans, there'd be more of them. After all, if this particular mutation resulted in higher chances of survival/reproduction, they'd presumably have an edge over normal, non-mage humans on that front. The thing is, evolution doesn't actually prioritize mutations that make you "better", but rather, mutations that help you survive long enough to reproduce. If you're surviving and reproducing at the same rate without the mutation as with it, it doesn't make a difference.

[Samahl]

Also, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure magic is genetic. There's the standard Chantry nonsense about mage-tainted bloodlines, but more importantly, there's the fact that Tevinter has bred mages since forever.

 

It could all just be superstition, but it seems clear to me that some bloodlines are more prone to producing mages than others.

[mikeymoonshine]

You would think if mages were the "evolved" form of humans, there'd be more of them. After all, if this particular mutation resulted in higher chances of survival/reproduction, they'd presumably have an edge over normal, non-mage humans on that front. The thing is, evolution doesn't actually prioritize mutations that make you "better", but rather, mutations that help you survive long enough to reproduce. If you're surviving and reproducing at the same rate without the mutation as with it, it doesn't make a difference.

 

Well systems like the circles obviously discourage allot of them from breeding and get allot of them killed. So idk, maybe there would be more of them if not for that. You are right though. 

[Samahl]

Well systems like the circles obviously discourage allot of them from breeding and get allot of them killed. So idk, maybe there would be more of them if not for that. You are right though. 

 

As far as I know, not even Tevinter is majority mage though.

[mikeymoonshine]

Also, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure magic is genetic. There's the standard Chantry nonsense about mage-tainted bloodlines, but more importantly, there's the fact that Tevinter has bred mages since forever.

 

It could all just be superstition, but it seems clear to me that some bloodlines are more prone to producing mages than others.

 

Well genetics doesn't seem to work the same way in Thedas . There are families that are more prone to magic so it is obviously somehow informed by genetics at least but that doesn't mean it is the only cause. Mages happen outside of magical families, there could be genetic explanations for this but I don't know it and  we still don't actually know why mages exist. It could be some magical reason, after all we are talking about a magical fantasy world. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

So you're saying the only reason mages are locked up is because of the demon threat? of course it's not! Look at Tevinter, it's an incredibly powerful country and yet it's run by the magisterium, how do you think a country functions if it has abominations running constantly through the streets? Do you think it might be because Tevinter mages are trained properly and it's an incredibly rare occurrence.

 

Thus, Mages are the evolution of their species. They have one disadvantage, a disadvantage caused entirely by their superiority sure but the pros far outweigh the cons.

Demons are a major part of why mages are locked up yes. Everything points towards a mage with no formal trainning is a far greater danger than a trained one. Of course the fact that magic is open to a wide array of potential abuse is another reason. And Tevinter got Circles aswells..

 

And again, you exhibit a lack of understanding of how evolution, genetics and biology in general works. Mages are NOT an evolution of humans. Two mages having a child together does NOT necessarily produce a mage child, ergo they are not a race of their own. They are at best a mutation of the human race, a subgroup. However, that would also neccesitate that a mage coupling would produce mage offspring, which it doesn't.

 

So in reality mages are MAGICAL in nature (who would've thunk it?), and not genetic or evolutionary at all.

[Samahl]

It could be some magical reason

 

This seems to be the primary influencing factor in my view, since magic isn't just limited to those families with magic in their blood.

[mikeymoonshine]

I guess the "mage gene" could just be not all that dominant so that families with allot of mages are just allot more likely to produce mage children.  You would think there would be even less of them then there are now though, if that was the case. 

[Asdrubael Vect]

the mages exist in human race due Ancient Tevinter(it was started even before imperium when ancient humans arrived in Thedas) cross-breeding with elves

 

there is no more pure humans in thedas, all of them are elf-blooded and because of that they see dreams and can have mages and mages mostly always have mages childrens

 

the Kossith sairrabas as i can understand appear after invasion because of that(because of many elfs and humans what they haved converted) and this is why Tammasarans ban cross-breading with races..pure kossith as a dwarfs and as ancient humans does not have mages and dreams

 

you cant fight against mages because this is nature..the more you will kill the more they will appear and the more veil will be torn, deamons invade and no one will close it

 

and i think any can understand if someone start a real genocide against mages this idiots will be doomed

 

 

and this would be the less of what they will have

[Samahl]

And again, you exhibit a lack of understanding of how evolution, genetics and biology in general works. Mages are NOT an evolution of humans. Two mages having a child together does NOT necessarily produce a mage child, ergo they are not a race of their own. They are at best a mutation of the human race, a subgroup. However, that would also neccesitate that a mage coupling would produce mage offspring, which it doesn't.

 

So in reality mages are MAGICAL in nature (who would've thunk it?), and not genetic or evolutionary at all.

 

Unfortunately, your understanding of evolution is off as well - evolution is mutations. Specifically, favorable mutations that increased your chances of reproducing. If being a mage gave you a significant leg-up over non-mages (assuming it's completely genetic and inheritable), then it would express itself as mages outlasting and outbreeding non-mages the majority of the time, to the point where people who have a higher chance of producing mages are selected for. Eventually, you'd expect the ratio of mages to non-mages to shift in favor of mage offspring. This is not the case however, so obviously being a mage isn't particularly advantageous, and thus, not a likely contender for evolutionary superiority.

 

Another thing that occurred to me just now: multiple races (as in, multiple species) can become mages. It isn't limited to just humans. This seems to support the "the primary influencing factor is magic itself" theory, as it's something that connects people across species.

[Samahl]

I guess the "mage gene" could just be not all that dominant so that families with allot of mages are just allot more likely to produce mage children.  You would think there would be even less of them then there are now though, if that was the case. 

 

I'm sure any "mage genes" are recessive.

[Pierce Miller]

Unfortunately, your understanding of evolution is off as well - evolution is mutations. Specifically, favorable mutations that increased your chances of reproducing. If being a mage gave you a significant leg-up over non-mages (assuming it's completely genetic and inheritable), then it would express itself as mages outlasting and outbreeding non-mages the majority of the time, to the point where people who have a higher chance of producing mages are selected for. Eventually, you'd expect the ratio of mages to non-mages to shift in favor of mage offspring. This is not the case however, so obviously being a mage isn't particularly advantageous, and thus, not a likely contender for evolutionary superiority.

 

Another thing that occurred to me just now: multiple races (as in, multiple species) can become mages. It isn't limited to just humans. This seems to support the "the primary influencing factor is magic itself" theory, as it's something that connects people across species.

There are many societal reasons as to why mages aren't the majority.