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[TurretSyndrome]

The Isolationists were right all along!

[Asdrubael Vect]

The Isolationists were right all along!

you will need to isolate entire race of any who can see dreams

 

all humans and some kossith-sairabas have elven genes-magic because of crossbreading with elves...humans have this from their arrival in Thedas and Qunari with many elven and human converters from first Qunari invasion

 

kossith technically can enslave many of their nation and get rid of those who can see dreams and produce mages but others can not especially humans

[TurretSyndrome]

I would think the process would be similar to sending mages to the Circle. Instead of being sent to a Circle with a bunch of power abusing Templars to scrutinize you and take advantage of you, you'd be sent to some island where you're taught by and cared for, by your own kind. That way, mundanes have their security, mages have their freedom. 

[Samahl]

And what of non-mage children born to mages?

[Asdrubael Vect]

I would think the process would be similar to sending mages to the Circle. Instead of being sent to a Circle with a bunch of power abusing Templars to scrutinize you and take advantage of you, you'd be sent to some island where you're taught by and cared for, by your own kind. That way, mundanes have their security, mages have their freedom. 

and soon this island will be too small for them and have entire country of pure mages and there is be more and more mages from nonmages who would send hem to that island

[Asdrubael Vect]

And what of non-mage children born to mages?

mage and mage=always mage

 

mage and templar=always mage

 

mage and non-mage=mage and very small chances of non-mage(his/her childrens would be mages)

 

templar and templar=a very high chances for mage

 

templar and non-mage=a good chances for mage..50/50

 

non-mage and non-mage=small chances for mage 10-20%..but if those non-mages are childrens of templars and especially mages so they have a very high chances to have mage

[Samahl]

...That's not how it works.

[TurretSyndrome]

And what of non-mage children born to mages?

 

They'd be sent back to where the mundane live? 

 

and soon this island will be too small for them and have entire country of pure mages and there is be more and more mages from nonmages who would send hem to that island

 

Well, it need not be an island. I mean, Thedas is just one continent and by itself, it's enormous. But this problem exists with anyone, not just mages. I can say the same about mundanes running out of room on Thedas. Overpopulation will always be an inevitable problem, regardless of your race/group. It will be a problem for much later though(centuries later) and really shouldn't be anyone's immediate concern. 

 

By the way, there is just a higher chance of two mages having a mage child, it's not guaranteed. Two mundanes also have a chance of producing a mage child in Dragon Age.

[EmperorSahlertz]

mage and mage=always mage

 

mage and templar=always mage

 

mage and non-mage=mage and very small chances of non-mage(his/her childrens would be mages)

 

templar and templar=a very high chances for mage

 

templar and non-mage=a good chances for mage..50/50

 

non-mage and non-mage=small chances for mage 10-20%..but if those non-mages are childrens of mages so they have a very high chances

  ...

...

 I'm not even gonna...

[Samahl]

They'd be sent back to where the mundane live? 

 

There's no way any of the nations would willingly allow thousands of mage-tainted orphans.into their borders. They'd have to be smuggled in. Plus, considering the sheer number of non-mages (because mage/mage couples beget non-mages plenty), you'd run into a lot of mage parents insistent on keeping their children, especially if they've already had some taken away.

[TurretSyndrome]

There's no way any of the nations would willingly allow thousands of mage-tainted orphans.into their borders. They'd have to be smuggled in. Plus, considering the sheer number of non-mages (because mage/mage couples beget non-mages plenty), you'd run into a lot of mage parents insistent on keeping their children, especially if they've already had some taken away.

 

Mage-tainted? This is new. When has there ever been discrimination against mundanes in Dragon Age who happen to have mages as parents? So far, people only care about whether or not you're a mage, and not whether or not your parents are mages, unless of course you live in Tevinter and you're a mundane born of a noble mage family. 

 

As for mages not wanting to be separated from their mundane children, isn't it the same for every mundane parent who had their mage children taken away by Templars? Templars have also taken away the children of mages born in the Circle for as long as the Circles existed. It's one of the rules of the system of the Circles of Magi, so nothing really changes there.

 

You have to understand that there can never be a solution that everyone will be fully onboard with. I'm talking about a solution everyone can come to terms to. By that, I mean all the nations and organizations of Thedas signing a treaty and establishing the new system. Fiona and her mages want a permanent solution? Well, here it is. This is as permanent as permanent gets, without the bloodshed. The concession is that, in return for their freedom, they have to agree to send their mundane-born to Thedas to be raised by mundane families. In the same way, any mages born to mundanes regardless of who they are born to, are sent to the mages, which works similarly to mages sent to the Circles. Expect this time, they will be in a mage-run environment. 

[Samahl]

Mage-tainted? This is new. When has there ever been discrimination against mundanes in Dragon Age who happen to have mages as parents? So far, people only care about whether or not you're a mage, and not whether or not your parents are mages, unless of course you live in Tevinter and you're a mundane born of a noble mage family. 

 

People who have magic in their blood are considered corrupted. Revka Amell giving birth a mage child is what led to Marlowe Dumar becoming viscount instead of Aristide Amell.

 

As for mages not wanting to be separated from their mundane children, isn't it the same for every mundane parent who had their mage children taken away by Templars? Templars have also taken away the children of mages born in the Circle for as long as the Circles existed. It's one of the rules of the system of the Circles of Magi, so nothing really changes there.

 

The difference is that the majority of children born of mages would be not be mages themselves. Mages are a minority everywhere. It's one thing if only, say, one child in every thousand is forcibly removed from their home, while for everybody on Mage Island, it'd be nine hundred and ninety nine in a thousand (slightly less, perhaps, due to all the mage blood, but this is all hypothetical anyway).

 

You have to understand that there can never be a solution that everyone will be fully onboard with. I'm talking about a solution everyone can come to terms to. By that, I mean all the nations and organizations of Thedas signing a treaty and establishing the new system. Fiona and her mages want a permanent solution? Well, here it is. This is as permanent as permanent gets, without the bloodshed. The concession is that, in return for their freedom, they have to agree to send their mundane-born to Thedas to be raised by mundane families. In the same way, any mages born to mundanes regardless of who they are born to, are sent to the mages, which works similarly to mages sent to the Circles. Expect this time, they will be in a mage-run environment. 

 

This still does not address the fact that there won't be anyone waiting for them back on the mainland with open arms. Even if they weren't mages, they're still orphans that, at that point, would be wards of the state. I doubt any nation would agree to spending resources trying to figure out how to feed, shelter, and educate all these surplus - not to mention, penniless - children.

[TurretSyndrome]

People who have magic in their blood are considered corrupted. Revka Amell giving birth a mage child is what led to Marlowe Dumar becoming viscount instead of Aristide Amell.

 

The difference is that the majority of children born of mages would be not be mages themselves. Mages are a minority everywhere. It's one thing if only, say, one child in every thousand is forcibly removed from their home, while for everybody on Mage Island, it'd be nine hundred and ninety nine in a thousand (slightly less, perhaps, due to all the mage blood, but this is all hypothetical anyway).

 

This still does not address the fact that there won't be anyone waiting for them back on the mainland with open arms. Even if they weren't mages, they're still orphans that, at that point, would be wards of the state. I doubt any nation would agree to spending resources trying to figure out how to feed, shelter, and educate all these surplus - not to mention, penniless - children.

 

 

They are not considered corrupted, that would be a stretch. It's only a matter of concern among the nobles of different countries, because it's a bit of a embarrassment but it's really not that big of an issue.

 

Actually it's been said that two mages have the highest chance of begetting a mage child rather than with only one parent. So it won't be 99% on "Mage Island" for children to be born as mundanes to be taken away from their families. If anything, it's the other way around. It's been mentioned by Wynne or someone that a child born of two mages is almost always a mage. According to the Wikia, Tevinter respects longer bloodlines of mages because of the higher chance of the children born to those families being mages and those mage-children inheriting the the magic potency of their family. This is a hint that Magic in blood matters and directly affects and also dramatically increases the chance of the child to be born a mage.

 

As for families waiting on the other side, well yeah, a system needs to be worked on. If they can't be a part of a family, they'll just have to be a part of the kingdom. They'll be in an Orphanage or something where they're educated and provided for and then taken into service when they come of age. And again, I really don't think they'll be surplus. From what we have heard about Tevinter, in most cases, the children born of mages will most likely be mages.

[Samahl]

They are not considered corrupted, that would be a stretch. It's only a matter of concern among the nobles of different countries, because it's a bit of a embarrassment but it's really not that big of an issue.

 

I just gave you an example of it indeed being a big issue, big enough to block a noble from coming to power. How big must it be for you to consider it "a big issue"?

 

It's been mentioned by Wynne or someone that a child born of two mages is almost always a mage.

 

Do you have a citation for this?

 

As for families waiting on the other side, well yeah, a system needs to be worked on. If they can't be a part of a family, they'll just have to be a part of the kingdom. They'll be in an Orphanage or something where they're educated and provided for and then taken into service when they come of age.

 

What makes you think they'll be willing to take them in though? How does that benefit them as nations? You (presumably) saw how Fereldan refugees were treated in Kirkwall. Do you really think children born of mages, who are seen as inherently sinful by most of Thedas, are going to be welcomed in with a smile?

[TurretSyndrome]

I just gave you an example of it indeed being a big issue, big enough to block a noble from coming to power. How big must it be for you to consider it "a big issue"?

 

Do you have a citation for this?

 

What makes you think they'll be willing to take them in though? How does that benefit them as nations? You (presumably) saw how Fereldan refugees were treated in Kirkwall. Do you really think children born of mages, who are seen as inherently sinful by most of Thedas, are going to be welcomed in with a smile?

 

I'm saying it's not an issue where they're being discriminated against, like mages are by mundanes. Certain countries in Thedas outside of Tevinter require noble houses to be purely mundane to continue their lineage, that's how it has always been. I don't see that as an issue at all, rather than being a matter of a Kingdoms regulations.

 

I don't have a citation for that, I don't remember who said that specifically. But there are parts in WoT written which say that Tevinter mage nobles give importance to protecting the magic lineages because of preserving their power and continuing the magic line. What Leandra said to Hawke about magic being strong in their family also points to this.

 

Again, the solution would be part of a signed contract between mundane-ruled nations and the mages. It's up to them how they deal with the orphans coming in, and going out of their countries. You keep pointing towards the possibility of discrimination of mundanes who are children of mages simply because their mage parents themselves would've been discriminated against. There may and probably will be cases where people are treated differently for carrying the magic in the blood but so far, there has been no evidence of people being treated in the same way or at the same level as mages simply because they have the blood. For example, the Amell family remained a noble house despite carrying magic in their bloodline. Leandra was only disowned when she chose to elope with a mage which her parents were completely against. There will be a disparity  but it's something that cannot be avoided. 

 

I know just as well as you that people moving between the two groups will have problems but this would be the price. Sorry this can't be that roses and sunshine solution you may be hoping for. If you got a better idea that has better consequences, let me know.

[Samahl]

 

I'm saying it's not an issue where they're being discriminated against, like mages are by mundanes. Certain countries in Thedas outside of Tevinter require noble houses to be purely mundane to continue their lineage, that's how it has always been. I don't see that as an issue at all, rather than being a matter of a Kingdoms regulations.

 

My point isn't even that they'll be treated as poorly as mages, because they obviously won't - it's the fact that they're already a burden on the state, coupled with the fact that their mage-tainted blood certainly would not help endear them to the masses.

 

I don't have a citation for that, I don't remember who said that specifically. But there are parts in WoT written which say that Tevinter mage nobles give importance to protecting the magic lineages because of preserving their power and continuing the magic line. What Leandra said to Hawke about magic being strong in their family also points to this.

 

I understand that certain bloodlines have a higher chance of producing mages, but I don't think it's as common as you say. I could be wrong, but I was arguing in favor of there being a genetic factor just last page.

 

I know just as well as you that people moving between the two groups will have problems but this would be the price. Sorry this can't be that roses and sunshine solution you may be hoping for.

 

Logistically, your plan doesn't make sense. You still have not provided any incentive for the nations to accept children from mage colonies (other than getting rid of mages, I suppose, but they don't need to take in orphans to deport mages).

 

If you got a better idea that has better consequences, let me know.

 

My idea is to keep Circles as learning institutions, but allow them to graduate, as well as leave from time to time during their stay. The Hogwarts solution, in short.

[TurretSyndrome]

Logistically, your plan doesn't make sense. You still have not provided any incentive for the nations to accept children from mage colonies (other than getting rid of mages, I suppose, but they don't need to take in orphans to deport mages).

 

My idea is to keep Circles as learning institutions, but allow them to graduate, as well as leave from time to time during their stay. The Hogwarts solution, in short.

 

 

Why doesn't it make sense? You say there's no reason for nations with mundanes accepting mundanes from the mage area, but I just gave you one; that the mages born in their nations will be given to the isolated ones. They take in the mundane orphans in return for not having to deal with mages in their own nations, how is that not making sense to you?

 

It's an obligation that they have to fulfill as part of the contract. If the Thedosian nations want to be safe and be rid of the dangers of magic while still sending mages born in their own countries to the isolated country, they would have to abide by it. If they don't, the mages would have no reason to take in mages from their countries which would restart all the mage-related problems in those nations, not to mention the mages would not be bound to living isolated since the treaty has been broken. Considering the Chantry already takes in any orphans born of the Circle mages and makes them a part of the organization, this is not at all difficult to uphold. The relationship would be symbiotic. 

 

As for your idea regarding Circles being kept as educational institutions, are you saying their freedom should be regulated? Mages will never agree to that, nor will the Templars allow for such a thing to happen under their watch. Hogwarts didn't have Templars.

[Samahl]

It doesn't make sense because you still have not demonstrated that there would be enough mage children born to offset the burden of all the non-mage children being sent back to the mainland. And besides, what would they do if the nations stopped taking their children? It's not like you can just punt the mage babies back across the border once they're left there, and they wouldn't have the manpower to retaliate in any meaningful way anyway.

 

And I'm not saying we should keep Circles exactly the same. I'm in favor of abolishing the Templar Order (or restructuring it) and getting the Chantry out of it, period. I think training mages to control their powers should be mandatory, but that's about it.

[TurretSyndrome]

It doesn't make sense because you still have not demonstrated that there would be enough mage children born to offset the burden of all the non-mage children being sent back to the mainland. And besides, what would they do if the nations stopped taking their children? It's not like you can just punt the mage babies back across the border once they're left there, and they wouldn't have the manpower to retaliate in any meaningful way anyway.

 

And I'm not saying we should keep Circles exactly the same. I'm in favor of abolishing the Templar Order (or restructuring it) and getting the Chantry out of it, period. I think training mages to control their powers should be mandatory, but that's about it.

 

I just told you that Tevinter magisters give importance to mage-potent bloodlines, which points to magic in blood having an effect on mage birth and power of that mage. I also provided you with the Amell family example. Other than that, there is no concrete evidence on either side, which is why I'm leaning towards the theory that mage parents do affect the nature of the child. If you want to refute the possibility, maybe you could point me to any hints or evidence which suggests that mage children wouldn't be born in the case of two mage parents or that it has no effect? 

 

Sorry, but the way things are, you can't keep the Circles the way they are. That's why this war is happening. As I said, this is no Hogwarts situation, where you can just grade them and send them back home during the summer break. 

[Samahl]

I just told you that Tevinter magisters give importance to mage-potent bloodlines, which points to magic in blood having an effect on mage birth and power of that mage. I also provided you with the Amell family example. Other than that, there is no concrete evidence on either side, which is why I'm leaning towards the theory that mage parents do affect the nature of the child. If you want to refute the possibility, maybe you could point me to any hints or evidence which suggests that mage children wouldn't be born in the case of two mage parents or that it has no effect? 

 

Sorry, but the way things are, you can't keep the Circles the way they are. That's why this war is happening. As I said, this is no Hogwarts situation, where you can just grade them and send them back home during the summer break. 

 

I understand that certain bloodlines have a higher chance of producing mages, but I don't think it's as common as you say. I could be wrong, but I was arguing in favor of there being a genetic factor just last page.

 

Sorry, but the way things are, you can't keep the Circles the way they are. That's why this war is happening. As I said, this is no Hogwarts situation, where you can just grade them and send them back home during the summer break. 

 

And I'm not saying we should keep Circles exactly the same. I'm in favor of abolishing the Templar Order (or restructuring it) and getting the Chantry out of it, period. I think training mages to control their powers should be mandatory, but that's about it.

 

I really wish you would stop ignoring me.

[Helios969]

Mage parents are not going to give up their mundanes on that island.

[TurretSyndrome]

I really wish you would stop ignoring me.

 

No, I wasn't ignoring you. I was just reminding you that there was no evidence one way or the other. The Tevinter's system is the only one that hints at blood being important, and it's not just certain bloodlines. The magic increases the more the families have longer lineages.

 

I know you said that your idea is not to keep the Circles the same. What I meant was that as long as the Circles exist in one form or the other, nothing is going to work. 

[Samahl]

No, I wasn't ignoring you. I was just reminding you that there was no evidence one way or the other. The Tevinter's system is the only one that hints at blood being important, and it's not just certain bloodlines. The magic increases the more the families have longer lineages.

 

First you emphasize that the residents of the mage colony would mostly be producing mage children, so it wouldn't be much of a problem anyway, and now you're admitting your claim is unsupported? Why argue as it it was true in the first place?

 

I know you said that your idea is not to keep the Circles the same. What I meant was that as long as the Circles exist in one form or the other, nothing is going to work. 

 

We could call them training centers instead, if you'd prefer. Do you think mages shouldn't be required to receive an education? Even elves realize the importance of training their mages, whom they coexist with just fine. 

[TurretSyndrome]

First you emphasize that the residents of the mage colony would mostly be producing mage children, so it wouldn't be much of a problem anyway, and now you're admitting your claim is unsupported? Why argue as it it was true in the first place?

 

We could call them training centers instead, if you'd prefer. Do you think mages shouldn't be required to receive an education? Even elves realize the importance of training their mages, whom they coexist with just fine. 

 

I based what I said on what was written in WoT, which pointed to the Tevinters prioritizing mage lineage. I did say that it isn't concrete evidence which directly points to saying that producing mage children will be more common. I also pointed towards Amell family who was afraid to let more mages in which also supports what I said. 

Mages are a minority everywhere. It's one thing if only, say, one child in every thousand is forcibly removed from their home, while for everybody on Mage Island, it'd be nine hundred and ninety nine in a thousand (slightly less, perhaps, due to all the mage blood, but this is all hypothetical anyway).

 

What you said here is completely hypothetical. What I said has been hinted at, which is what I was saying.

 

Mages have been known to educate themselves about magic throughout the series. You don't need the circles or any other specific institutions to do it. My idea of isolation actually allows the mages to build their own schools however they wish in their land, without the scrutinizing of the Templars. The hole in your idea is what the mages will do out of school. You can't stop them to dabble in forbidden magic. And since they'd be living with the mundane, they will endanger them if the mages get possessed. At that point, all you have to do is wait for one major incident with the mundane and the Templars are back to locking up the mages. Your resolution just won't last as long as the mages and mundane are together.

[Samahl]

I based what I said on what was written in WoT, which pointed to the Tevinters prioritizing mage lineage. I did say that it isn't concrete evidence which directly points to saying that producing mage children will be more common. I also pointed towards Amell family who was afraid to let more mages in which also supports what I said. 

 

What you said here is completely hypothetical. What I said has been hinted at, which is what I was saying.

 

My position is based off of two things we do, in fact, have evidence for:

 

1. Mage births are rare.

2. People with magic in their bloodlines have increased chances of producing mage offspring.

 

I assumed that the increase in probability was minor, but to be honest, we have no idea as of yet. You can work off the assumption that it's major if that's your preference, but that makes any further discussion on this front fruitless.

 

Mages have been known to educate themselves about magic throughout the series. You don't need the circles or any other specific institutions to do it. My idea of isolation actually allows the mages to build their own schools however they wish in their land, without the scrutinizing of the Templars. The hole in your idea is what the mages will do out of school. You can't stop them to dabble in forbidden magic. And since they'd be living with the mundane, they will endanger them if the mages get possessed. At that point, all you have to do is wait for one major incident with the mundane and the Templars are back to locking up the mages. Your resolution just won't last as long as the mages and mundane are together.

 

Why is there a greater risk of mages using blood magic/dealing with demons when living among non-mages vs. living solely with other mages? And you do realize that mages are the ones in charge of education in the Circles? If we took templars and the Chantry out of the equation, Circles would be completely mage-run.