537 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

That won't work either. For one, the Templars have been corrupted and will need to be done away with entirely.

 

The mages will just keep rebelling, no matter how much supervision or security they're given, not to mention there are a lot of mage sympathizers in Thedas who will not be happy with even stricter mage imprisonment

 

If you're looking for a perfect system, there isn't one. For anything.

People thrive on being unhappy. There's always someone who has a complaint and dozen people who think they could make better decisions than those in charge.

 

On the other hand, the Circle system has kept the peace for a thousand years. One rebellion in a thousand years is a very good track record.

 

BTW, there is no such thing as "doign away with the Templars entirely". It's impossible.

The Templars are farmers and nobles and smiths and soldiers. They're regular people of Thedas which means, that even if you were to kill every single Templars alive today, you'd still have to recruit from the same pool their recruits came from.

 

Meaning, you'd just have the Templars by any other name.

 

Also, there aren't "a lot" of mage sympathizers. There are some but Wynne, Rhys and Adrian were in a tavern for an hour before the townspeople tried to lynch them.

People despise mages.
 

[Xilizhra]

On one hand you talk of mages participating in the system and on the other you defend one where those bereft of magic have no representation. Never mind that the government of Tevinter is what encourages said culture and economy.

 

A government and a culture that would be extablished in Southern Thedas within a century of your proposition.
 

I think all of Thedas' governments suck, but I don't think Tevinter's sucks harder than any other than any other that involves rule through bloodlines, which is all of them.

 

In any case, the Chantry doesn't govern mundanes, even in Tevinter, so I don't exactly see why letting mages into the Chantry's government would lead to the Chantry launching a coup against the entirety of Thedas and turning it into the Andrastian Imperium.

[MisterJB]

My counterargument is that they're corrupt.

 

I wasn't aware this was a debate. I'm just discussing ideas here

 

"Corrupt" doesn't change the facts I pointed out such as them being the only influential multinational organization with an interest in keeping mages neutral.

 

Besides, where is this corruption?
 

[Ianamus]

Not necessarily. The independent Dales was a kingdom where mages weren't controlled by templars, some were among the nobility, and they lived alongside non-mages. The nation also didn't emulate Tevinter. An independent Dales that is emancipated from Orlesian occupation could afford elven mages the same opportunity if the Dalish are among it's leaders.

 

 

We have no knowledge of what the system in place there actually was or how it worked though, so It's impossible to say how effective or ethical it was compared to the current system. 

 

What Masked Empire showed us about the old Elven culture basically outright said that even the old Elven empire suffered an extreme case of inequality and animosity between dreamers and the servant/commoner class. 

 

The only culture in Thedas that has no issues with Mages being treated unfairly or having too much power and control over everyone else is the Dwarves, because they don't have any. 

[MisterJB]

In any case, the Chantry doesn't govern mundanes, even in Tevinter,

Yeah, I mean, the Imperial Grand Clerics are only all mages with seats in the Magisterium.

Clearly, they don't govern anything.

 

Also, a coup? You're thinking small.

[stunkill37]

Allow mages to do whatever they want with my inquisitor leading the world take over by magekind   HAHAHAAAAA! 

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, I mean, the Imperial Grand Clerics are only all mages with seats in the Magisterium.

Clearly, they don't govern anything.

 

Also, a coup? You're thinking small.

The Magisterium governs mundanes, not the Imperial Chantry directly. And what else would the Chantry do in this terrifying hypothetical?

[LobselVith8]

We have no knowledge of how the system actually worked though, so It's impossible to say how effective or ethical it was compared to the current system. 

 

What Masked Empire showed us about the old Elven culture basically outright said that even the old Elven empire suffered an extreme case of inequality and animosity between dreamers and the servant/commoner class. 

 

It was effective enough to exist until the Exalted March on the Dales lead to the dissolution of an independent kingdom, but the clans are the remnants of that nation, and the nomadic societies of clans stand as another example where free mages have lived alongside non-mages for centuries without templar control.

 

Also, Felassan compared Arlathan to Orlais, but I wouldn't consider the Dales to be representative of Arlathan. It was more of an oligarchy.

 

The only culture in Thedas that has no issues with Mages being treated unfairly or having too much power and control over everyone else is the Dwarves, because they don't have any. 

 

The Dalish consider magic a gift of the Creators, so they have a completely opposing view to magic and mages than Andrastians do. We also have different views of mages and magic (than Andrastians) among the Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, and the traditional Rivaini.

[Neon Rising Winter]

A - Reset button? Yeah... no.

B - Well I think the abomination mountain is demonstrably hyperbole given the lack of abomination based societal collapse in cases where there is more freedom, so I'm guessing someone has been telling little porky pies there to avoid having their budget slashed. But total freedom doesn't make much sense to me, they're not a society of their own, but part of existing ones, so again no.

C - Ding, we have a winner. No reset button, no ignoring the rest of society, no shrieking extremist whack job. It's messy, awkward, won't quite work right and will be endlessly problematic. Sounds like a proper solution to me.

D - Might work if all you needed to do is commit genocide but while non mage parents keep popping them out it's not going to do much long term. I don't think you'll convince the entire breeding population to tie a knot in it.

[Gwydden]

The Dalish consider magic a gift of the Creators, so they have a completely opposing view to magic and mages than Andrastians do. We also have different views of mages and magic (than Andrastians) among the Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, and the traditional Rivaini.

Those people have comparatively less mages than, say, a kingdom like Ferelden. The situation is more likely to remain contained.

 

The exception is Rivain, where Circles do exist.

[MisterJB]

The Magisterium governs mundanes, not the Imperial Chantry directly.

Except all those of any importance in the Imperial Chantry are all mages and all have seats in the government.

 

 

And what else would the Chantry do in this terrifying hypothetical?

Mages become part of the Chantry. Mage becomes Divine.

The first thing she does is revoke the law that says mages can't hold nobility titles.

Mages are born to important nobles and are given tutelage by the Divine herself. Some return home to rule, others stay and are appointed to the seat of Grand Clerics.

Meanwhile, those mages who returned home invest heavily on the Circle while marrying their offspring to non-magical nobles

Etc.
 

[MisterJB]

The Dalish are a magocracy where supreme executive power is reserved for mages.

Adrastean kingdoms specifically wish to avoid this.

[lil yonce]

The differences between mage and mundane are sincere and indestructible, and precedent upholds violence as the most effective tool of action in the face of them, but I think a non-violent, agreeable enough, long term solution can be found. With an immediate re-balancing of power in the Circle system and re-balancing as needed in the future, I think things work out.

[Xilizhra]

Mages become part of the Chantry. Mage becomes Divine.

The first thing she does is revoke the law that says mages can't hold nobility titles.

Mages are born to important nobles and are given tutelage by the Divine herself. Some return home to rule, others stay and are appointed to the seat of Grand Clerics.

Meanwhile, those mages who returned home invest heavily on the Circle while marrying their offspring to non-magical nobles

Etc.
 

And individual nations are expected to let the Chantry determine how their inheritance laws work... why, precisely? You also seem to be assuming that anti-mage prejudice would disappear awfully quickly for one who was extolling how prominent it was a few posts ago.

If you want, we can consider all mages to be citizens solely of the Chantry/Circle and technically foreigners everywhere else.

[LobselVith8]

Those people have comparatively less mages than, say, a kingdom like Ferelden. The situation is more likely to remain contained.

 

The exception is Rivain, where Circles do exist.

 

Although the Circle in Rivain was one where seers were allowed to practice their traditions and pass on their teachings, which lead to it's annulment when foreign Seekers discovered this. As First Enchanter Rivella wrote, "When the other Circle rose up, the Chantry sent Seekers across the bay from Ayesleigh to investigate. They found us mixing freely with our families, training female mages in the traditions of the seers, and denounced us as apostates."

[Gwydden]

And individual nations are expected to let the Chantry determine how their inheritance laws work... why, precisely? You also seem to be assuming that anti-mage prejudice would disappear awfully quickly for one who was extolling how prominent it was a few posts ago.

If you want, we can consider all mages to be citizens solely of the Chantry/Circle and technically foreigners everywhere else.

Nobles might be willing to risk it if they thought they could get some mages up their sleeve.

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish are a magocracy where supreme executive power is reserved for mages.

Adrastean kingdoms specifically wish to avoid this.

 

The hahren also have authority in the clan, and the hahren were able to prohibit a Keeper from marrying someone with their authority (i.e. the Dalish Warden's parents).

[Ninjasplaycardgames2]

I'm still surprised people think Bioware would ever let the player destroy thr chantry. If it ever gets taken down it'll probably be in a book or comic.

Theres no way they'd put a major event like that in a book/comic.

 

Also, round up the mage's and send them off to a secluded island, let them sort out the rest :v

[Zana]

Well, we can try this...

 

First, we have to make a self policing group of mages.  This group will be in charge of educating the young mages and making sure they adhere to an arbitrary set of rules and do not fall to the dark side use blood magic.  For now we shall call this entity The Jedi Order The New Circle.  The New Circle shall be lead by Jedi Council The Council of Enchanters who will monitor the regular jedi mages for the signs of corruption.  They in turn will make sure that padawans apprentices are brought up to be guardians of peace in the universe Thedas for thousands of generations.  The New Circle will hold no property and stay outside of all politics.  Mages who disobey, will be disciplined by the council.  Thus, barring an occasional Revan rogue mage who decides to use dark side blood magic to win a bloody war (apparently doing it at the behest of the Sith Emperor Super Blood Mage), we shall have a relatively stable existance for a few thousands of years before Yuuzhan Vong darkspawn take over.  

 

Anyway, I think that the analogy is pretty clear here.  Obvious problem is that unlike Star Wars, DA does not operate by black and white standards of Force (Sorry KOTOR2), so having a simplistic solution like this will probably not work.  Still, a mass brainwashing (worked for Chantry, right?) might be able to accomplish something similar to establishment of Jedi Order.  Only problem then is to figure out how to stop that order from taking over.

[MisterJB]

And individual nations are expected to let the Chantry determine how their inheritance laws work... why, precisely?

Because poor, sweet Isolde wants Connor to inherit his father's lands. Eamon will, no doubt, be willing to convince Alistair that, what harm could there be in a few noble mages?

I mean, the mage daugther of that merchant whose money the king relies on to outfit his army has never harmed anyone.

 

Short-sigthedness, greed, stupidity. Take your pick.

 

 

 

You also seem to be assuming that anti-mage prejudice would disappear awfully quickly for one who was extolling how prominent it was a few posts ago.

I'm fairly certain the citizens of Tevinter hate their mage rulers.
A lot of good that does them.

 

 

If you want, we can consider all mages to be citizens solely of the Chantry/Circle and technically foreigners everywhere else.

Until that law is rescinded either by a Divine or a ruler wanting to use mages.

 

 

[Swoopdogg]

I'm starting to like the idea of mage self-government

[Gwydden]

The hahren also have authority in the clan, and the hahren were able to prohibit a Keeper from marrying someone with their authority (i.e. the Dalish Warden's parents).

Dalish clans are tribal societies. They're system is in no way applicable to larger, more complex structures.

 

They also rely heavily on tradition, which is... not good.

[MisterJB]

The hahren also have authority in the clan, and the hahren were able to prohibit a Keeper from marrying someone with their authority (i.e. the Dalish Warden's parents).

If the hahren have authority, why didn't the hahren of Merrill's clan countermand Meredith's orders and had the clan move? Why were there hahrens abandoning the clan?

 

It seems more accurate to say that hahrens have as much power as the Keeper allows them to have.

[Swoopdogg]

And Jedi-mage council.

 

However, forcing mages to be keepers of peace is also unethical

 

whatever, who cares

[Xilizhra]

Because poor, sweet Isolde wants Connor to inherit his father's lands. Eamon will, no doubt, be willing to convince Alistair that, what harm could there be in a few noble mages?

I mean, the mage daugther of that merchant whose money the king relies on to outfit his army has never harmed anyone.

 

Short-sigthedness, greed, stupidity. Take your pick.

Actually, that seems sensible enough so far.

 

 

I'm fairly certain the citizens of Tevinter hate their mage rulers.
A lot of good that does them.

I'd say that free citizens have a spectrum of opinion similar to, say, that of Orlesian citizens.

 

 

Until that law is rescinded either by a Divine or a ruler wanting to use mages.

It could happen, though I don't see why the Divine would want to lose exclusive governance of mages any more than she would now.

 

However, let me ask this: why would any of this make the Chantry start approving of slavery?

 

 

I'm starting to like the idea of mage self-government

Always glad to help.