537 réponses à ce sujet

[Ianamus]

The same thing is true of 100% of the Circles we've seen.  I think this is more indicative of the fact that we wouldn't be going to that specific location if there wasn't some kind of drama going on.  You could equally say that none of the villages we saw in Origins were functioning villages because they were all destroyed.

 

The circle featured in Dawn of Seeker did not have any issues really, although that's the extended universe. 

 

It's also worth noting that both of the circle conflicts in Origins and Dragon Age 2 are limited solely to the circle itself for the most part. Only people in the circle and templars are harmed (not counting the Chantry being blown up). For the Dalish clans were talking about the entire clans being wiped out, presumably down to the children. 

[The Hierophant]

I don't really see the hands of the chantry that could use them as artillery as different from the hands of nobles who could use them for artillery. If they get made to fight on behalf of a religion they may not believe in that's not really better or less likely than being made to fight for their nations nobles.
I also don't see why there needs to be a multinational organization instead of letting each nation deal with their own Mage citizens.

The nations would stockpile mages like wmds and use them without reservation in any open conflict with their neighbors, whereas the conflicts the Chantry would use them in would be rarer.

Now with the nationalist mages being pitted against one another, demon summoning and Veil tears will be commonplace on battlefields. Think Kinloch's Hold and Soldier's Keep, but on a grander scale.

[MisterJB]

I don't really see the hands of the chantry that could use them as artillery as different from the hands of nobles who could use them for artillery. If they get made to fight on behalf of a religion they may not believe in that's not really better or less likely than being made to fight for their nations nobles.


I also don't see why there needs to be a multinational organization instead of letting each nation deal with their own Mage citizens.

Because then we would have kings using peasants as blood dolls to fuel spells in their wars of expansion.

Meanwhile, the Chantry has no territory, it has influence. It does not care which lord has the rights to the income of a bridge or a mill.

So long as the kingdom is Andrastean, they have no reason to use the mages.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Why on earth would the Chantry pay for that? What would they gain? Nothing. So that is not going to happen.

And yeah, the humans 150 years later was surely to blame for what happened to Zathrian I am sure of it. I mean how dare they be born, right?

I think you inadvertently hit the nail on the head there. While the Chantry has a presumably significant financial interest in the existing system change is not going to happen. When in doubt follow the money.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Economic boons from the village?

So your mage village would pay the Chantry for paying the villagers to relocate to the village? And you don't see any flaws?

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Yes there can be a solution that works. 

 

Academy of Magic

 

It will be similar to Circle of Magi with these differences. 

 

- No Templar or Chantry supervision. This academy will be like a university where it will be supervised by the people in it, meaning mages or educated people. 

 

- Allow non mages to enter and to learn there. Part of the reason why Thedas is either wary of magic or are anti-magic is because people there are afraid of magic and they are not educated on the ways of magic. Non-mages can learn the basics of magic, about the fade, how to protect themselves from magical creatures and magical attacks.

 

Additionally, fields of study such as alchemy and enchanting are magic, in and of themselves. Alchemy can be learned by anyone and it is highly beneficial. Enchanting and working with lyrium can be learned by dwarves. Additionally, non mages can get a proper education and even take part in excavations and historical research. 

 

-This is essentially an amalgamation of a university and the Circle of Magi. Both mages and non mages can benefit immeasurably from this.  

 

Tevinter

 

While Tevinter is well known for it notoriety, I am of the opinion that Tevinter has some good things in it that the rest of Thedas can benefit from. 

 

- Allow participation of mages in all levels of society. Mages should be allowed to be traders, ambassadors, advisers, etc. 

 

- In fact Tevinter - slavery + valuing both humans and elves equally = Pretty alright in my opinion. 

[Gwydden]

There are differences, but the fact remains the clans are the remnants of a kingdom where mages weren't controlled by templars and were even among the nobility who governed the nation, and it didn't fall to abominations.

All the examples we have of kingdoms where mages weren't controlled by mundanes are of mundanes being controlled by mages.

[God_of_you]

There is no compromise. It's one of the most grey moral conflicts I've ever seen/heard of in a fantasy world.

 

There won't be a perfect solution. But there has to be a solution of some sort. Things can't go on the way they are.

sometimes i play a new game which is about angels , maybe you can have a try  ,

[Ianamus]

 

All the examples we have of kingdoms where mages weren't controlled by mundanes are of mundanes being controlled by mages.

 

Exactly. The one thing we do know about the mage system in the Dales is that mages were the aristocracy. Since we know that the oldelven empire had powerful mages ruling and others serving it just seems like it was a watered down version of the old ways. 

 

It's essentially no different to Tevinter as far as I can see, just with incredibly poor servants instead of slaves and Dreamers in the place of Magisters. 

[LobselVith8]

Exactly. The one thing we do know about the mage system in the Dales is that mages were the aristocracy. Since we know that the oldelven empire had powerful mages ruling and others serving it just seems like it was a watered down version of the old ways. 

 

According to elven lore, everyone was a mage in Arlathan. Felassan remarks about the Dreamers and immortality, but I don't see the Dales as comparable since it's never stated the nobility was limited to mages, only that mages were among the nobility; the hahren are an example of non-mages who have authority in the clan, so I don't think it would be unusual if non-mages wielded power in the Dales as well. 

 

It's essentially no different to Tevinter as far as I can see, just with incredibly poor servants instead of slaves and Dreamers in the place of Magisters. 

 

Felassan compared Arlathan to Orlais, not Tevinter. Or are we saying Orlais and Tevinter are no different as well?

[Grieving Natashina]

Is it October yet?

[Urazz]

Option B would not cause Abominations galore.  It would really depend on where the mages were located and how they were treated.

 

Kirkwall was pretty much the worst place possible for mages for several reasons.

 

1. The Veil was thin there so it was easy for the normal mages and newly awakened mages to be susceptible to possession from demons.

 

2. The Templars of Kirkwall treated the mages there like crap generally (there were a few exceptions of course).  This lead to some mages getting desperate and being more emotionally unstable which makes them more susceptible to possession from demons.

 

3. The Templars' treatment of mages also lead to some mages practicing blood magic to get an edge over the Templars there, which can also lead to a mage being more susceptible to possession.

 

Combine all 3 factors together and you get the mess that is Kirkwall in DA2.

 

I think the big thing that lead to the Mage/Templar war was that most of the Templars forgot that their duty was also to protect the mages, not be their jailers.  They were essentially supposed to protect the civilians from evil mages and help guide the mages to proper uses of magic.

 

Option C can work but I think it would require a lot of thought and planning things out by the Mages and Templars.

 

Oh, and I don't think mages will be considered WMDs if they were allowed to serve in their nation's armies.  Most mages aren't nearly that powerful.  At the most you could consider them artillery.

[Eveangaline]

The nations would stockpile mages like wmds and use them without reservation in any open conflict with their neighbors, whereas the conflicts the Chantry would use them in would be rarer.

Now with the nationalist mages being pitted against one another, demon summoning and Veil tears will be commonplace on battlefields. Think Kinloch's Hold and Soldier's Keep, but on a grander scale.

Veil tearing happens at any place of large death anyway so it's not like normal wars don't already cause that.

 

Nor is it really any more likely for countries to do this than it is for the chantry to do this and use them to attack groups that don't follow the chant.

 

 

Because then we would have kings using peasants as blood dolls to fuel spells in their wars of expansion.

Meanwhile, the Chantry has no territory, it has influence. It does not care which lord has the rights to the income of a bridge or a mill.

So long as the kingdom is Andrastean, they have no reason to use the mages.

 

So we can't let countries work out how to deal with their own mage citizens because they may use them to attack other countries.

 

But the chantry gets to decide what happens to any countries mage citizens because they'd only use them to attack countries that don't follow their religion?

 

How is that better?

 

I don't think the chantry being involved makes blood magic less used. After all most kings and lords probably aren't that fond of it either because it would give some mage peasant a chance to control their mind and use them to rule by proxy.

[Helios969]

OP: Option D is probably the least effective. It only addresses living mages and would effectively ensure any mage child born would remain hidden...a world full of self-taught apostates is a recipe for disaster...even worse than mage autonomy. Your original assertion was correct there really is no long term solution that keeps everyone satisfied.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Mages are only problem option D is best solution i will go with that no more destroyed villages because od demon or mages or continental disasters caused by mages.

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

There is no compromise. It's one of the most grey moral conflicts I've ever seen/heard of in a fantasy world.

 

There won't be a perfect solution. But there has to be a solution of some sort. Things can't go on the way they are.

sometimes i play a new game which is about angels , maybe you can have a try  ,

 

Since when 2 sides of lunatics that kill and destroy everything on their way is grey?

Grey was civil war in skyrim not mages vs templars it pure example of evil vs evil where templars were lighter shade of black in da 2 now they are as nuts as mages.

[Dean_the_Young]

We have no knowledge of what the system in place there actually was or how it worked though, so It's impossible to say how effective or ethical it was compared to the current system. 

 

What Masked Empire showed us about the old Elven culture basically outright said that even the old Elven empire suffered an extreme case of inequality and animosity between dreamers and the servant/commoner class. 

 

The only culture in Thedas that has no issues with Mages being treated unfairly or having too much power and control over everyone else is the Dwarves, because they don't have any. 

 

I propose we make everyone into dwarves.

[Helios969]

I propose we make everyone into dwarves.

Green ending: Add the Inquisitor's essence to the fade?

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't really see the hands of the chantry that could use them as artillery as different from the hands of nobles who could use them for artillery. If they get made to fight on behalf of a religion they may not believe in that's not really better or less likely than being made to fight for their nations nobles.

 

 

It is, however, far less likely to happen. The nations of Thedas have conflicts with eachother on a semi-regular basis, and that's without the internal strife that is constant. Making mages tools of the state means they would be used as tools of the state, at the direction and interest of whoever holds the handle.

 

The Chantry, at least, hasn't, and has a long history of that. Mages are both demilitarized and neutral in the Andrastian political conflicts, and their involvement in the Exalted Marches and even the Blight appears to have been largely voluntary: at least we haven't heard cases of the Chantry drafting mages and forcing them on the front lines, while even participating in Ferelden's Blight appears to have been voluntary.

 

So between a long history of relative demilitarization and neutrality with an institution whose major military involvements have been relatively few, as opposed to the nobles who have shown no such restraint...
 

 

I also don't see why there needs to be a multinational organization instead of letting each nation deal with their own Mage citizens.

 

 

Aside from the consequences (good and bad) from losing shared standards?

 

There's no need, obviously, since there's no need that mages even not be an elite/ruling class. The Andrastians of Thedas find this preferable, however, and the Chantry system has kept the mages out of a lot of trouble that nationalization or even nominal emancipation wouldn't have.
 

[Dean_the_Young]

Green ending: Add the Inquisitor's essence to the fade?

Only if the Inquisitor makes an O face, some suggestive sounds, and the narrative talks about how you are into (and in) everyone.

[MCG]

I think all mages should be placed within the circle from birth and recorded, all should pass psychological tests as well as other things and then released into Thedas should they show promise. Templars should also be more understanding whereas mages should be less radical and more aware of their potential threat.

[Bleachrude]

I agree with others. Weakening the chantry means that the nobles will use them in their army/war. 

 

There's also the issue of funding....the mages in the circles are provided for and have lives better than the average citizen....sure they are not nobles but compared to the average citizen

 

Medieval life was _HARD_. and somehow I can't see the citizery of a country being ok with their taxes going towards one section of the populace that doesn't seem to have any obligations

[Feybrad]

I think, the Problem with Mages lies with the Fact that they are so much more powerful as Individuals opposed to everyone else.

 

So the Solution is, give everyone the Potential to become equally powerful. The Qunari are an Example - thanks to their technological Superiority they managed to hold themselves against most of Thedas for various Decades, even conquering the better Part of the greatest Mage Nation. If such Technology was thus spread troughout all of Thedas and was develop progressively, I could see it being equal to magic in Terms of Power after not too much Time. Who needs Fireballs, if you can have Explosions? Healing Spells? Medicine! You get the Idea.

 

However, technological Progess and Spread aren't something that happen overnight. Until then, the Mages can be used to accomplish exactly that. Especially Circle Mages have spent their Life studying the Laws of Thedas, so they are the perfect Persons to be the driving Force behind technological Revolution in Thedas. Of course, the Circle System is flawed and a little Freedom is needed to conduct useful scientific Research. But there are enough Templars to ensure that. Simply assign one Templar to one Mage as a more or less permanent "Bodyguard", so they are never unsupervised. Also, open the real School System of the Circle, by allowing the Parents to visit their Children there.

 

OR

 

They shall submit to the Qun.

[Dean_the_Young]

I think all mages should be placed within the circle from birth and recorded, all should pass psychological tests as well as other things and then released into Thedas should they show promise.

 

 

Two obvious problems with this being Mages generally can't be identified from birth, and that Thedas doesn't have a field of psychology.