537 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

So the Solution is, give everyone the Potential to become equally powerful. The Qunari are an Example - thanks to their technological Superiority they managed to hold themselves against most of Thedas for various Decades, even conquering the better Part of the greatest Mage Nation. If such Technology was thus spread troughout all of Thedas and was develop progressively, I could see it being equal to magic in Terms of Power after not too much Time. Who needs Fireballs, if you can have Explosions? Healing Spells? Medicine! You get the Idea.

 

Given the inevitable merging of magic and technology in this scenario, I think it would actually make mages far more powerful, at least potentially. But that would be so badass to witness I don't even care.

[Super Drone]

The reason I disagree is because the chantry is corrupt and arguably evil

 

The Chantry is the softest most liberal Continent-wide religion ever conceived of.

[Iakus]

I think the question of mages is a facinating one, and that there is no perfect solution (though there are certainly greater degrees of "imperfect" solutions.)  In the end, you have to balance the fact that mages are people with the grim reality that they can both abuse their power like anyone else, or become literal monsters against their will.

 

I just hope it doesn't get "solved" by "Destroy all mages, become an uber-pride demon to control Thedas, turn everyone into mages, or sit by and let Thedas burn"

[Feybrad]

 

The Chantry is the softest most liberal Continent-wide religion ever conceived of.

 

Which does say something about Continent-wide Religions, doesn't it?

 

 

Given the inevitable merging of magic and technology in this scenario, I think it would actually make mages far more powerful, at least potentially. But that would be so badass to witness I don't even care.

 

Yes. that would be ridiculously Badass. Plus, it would make Mages much more integral to every Society, mellowing down the Racism.

[Eveangaline]

It is, however, far less likely to happen. The nations of Thedas have conflicts with eachother on a semi-regular basis, and that's without the internal strife that is constant. Making mages tools of the state means they would be used as tools of the state, at the direction and interest of whoever holds the handle.

 

The Chantry, at least, hasn't, and has a long history of that. Mages are both demilitarized and neutral in the Andrastian political conflicts, and their involvement in the Exalted Marches and even the Blight appears to have been largely voluntary: at least we haven't heard cases of the Chantry drafting mages and forcing them on the front lines, while even participating in Ferelden's Blight appears to have been voluntary.

 

So between a long history of relative demilitarization and neutrality with an institution whose major military involvements have been relatively few, as opposed to the nobles who have shown no such restraint...
 

 

Aside from the consequences (good and bad) from losing shared standards?

 

There's no need, obviously, since there's no need that mages even not be an elite/ruling class. The Andrastians of Thedas find this preferable, however, and the Chantry system has kept the mages out of a lot of trouble that nationalization or even nominal emancipation wouldn't have.
 

 

To be honest I don't see the problem with mages fighting in a war if they choose to. Nor do I see them more likely to be used in masse by the state than they would be used by the chantry. The chantry has it's own petty whims and wishes and likes keeping those who support it in power. And nobles aren't stupid, they aren't going to force mages to do too much they don't want to because hey, why start **** with your mages and have the mages start rebelling on your ass? I don't think they'd force the mages to do things any more than the Chantry would. But as long as the people running the circle has an option like the chantry does "Hey you don't have to do what we say but legally we can just ask for the right to murder every single one of you down to kids taken in yesterday, or basically rip out of the soul of people we may find too weak or who may dissent too much" then there's not really a lot of choice that the mages have. True, other organizations than the chantry carry those same threats but I imagine it would be easier for mages to protest their treatment if it isn't considered the Voice of God.

 

Yes there would be consequences good and bad from not having shared standards. But the standards are barely shared anyway and I think the good would outweigh the bad. And the bad will be easier to fight against when it's not backed by religious authority. And frankly I just see no reason say, a free marcher who may not even be andrastrian should be forced at the point of a sword to listen to and follow and orlais based religions rules on what they should do.

 

Also we can't say that the chantry system has kept them out of more trouble than nationalization or nominal emancipation because we haven't seen what those countries would be like with nationalized and nominally emancipated mages.

 

Also just..letting a religion that actively preaches that mages made God go away be in charge of all the training and watching of mages.

[Super Drone]

Which does say something about Continent-wide Religions, doesn't it?

 

 

My Point. I a lot of Anti-Chantry sentiment sounds like a lot of knee-jerk "Religion Bad! Secular Humanist Atheism Good!". That or "Mages Good! Anything that stands in their way Bad!".

 

But the Chantry is stunningly open and humanist for a Dominant religion in a make-believe Mideval fantasy world. No sexual repression, no marginalizing people who are differently colored or homosexual. The outlawed slavery, and keep with the giving of alms and raising of Orphans and all that helping people who can't help themselves. Even actual racism, such as that against Elves, is more cultural and rooted in the National identity of people. There's no laws keeping Elves from joining the Chantry, as Templars or (female) Priests, though admittedly there's cultural barriers in place.

 

So, why are they "evil"? Oh right. Mages.  . And our modern perspective always assumes religions are evil....

[Feybrad]

You are somewhat right, yeah. But, on the other Hand, the Chantry doesn't exactly have good Competition in Terms of "Continent-spanning" Religions (assumed we're taking into Account something like Christianity).

 

The Problem with these Organization is never the Idea that lies at it's Bottom, but the Institutionalization and the Politicization that follow them. Because that alienates the Followers from the "spiritual" Idea and Philosophy and makes them subject to more "worldy" Influences, which lead to the Idea being twisted to sate these "worldly" Influences. Which are rarely positive - look at the Mage Issue and the different Interpretations of that one Sentence in the Chant of Light to get a perfect Example.

[Inprea]

My Point. I a lot of Anti-Chantry sentiment sounds like a lot of knee-jerk "Religion Bad! Secular Humanist Atheism Good!". That or "Mages Good! Anything that stands in their way Bad!".

 

But the Chantry is stunningly open and humanist for a Dominant religion in a make-believe Mideval fantasy world. No sexual repression, no marginalizing people who are differently colored or homosexual. The outlawed slavery, and keep with the giving of alms and raising of Orphans and all that helping people who can't help themselves. Even actual racism, such as that against Elves, is more cultural and rooted in the National identity of people. There's no laws keeping Elves from joining the Chantry, as Templars or (female) Priests, though admittedly there's cultural barriers in place.

 

So, why are they "evil"? Oh right. Mages.  . And our modern perspective always assumes religions are evil....

 

They helped Orlais my forbidding mages to fight on the side Ferelden when they fought to free themselves from Orlais while sending mages to help subjugate them. They also called an exalted march when the elfs did better against Orlais then expected. Then they maintain a strangle hold on the lyrium trade, a very valuable trade, rather then allowing it to become a free market system. We've seen that humans like Wade can work with lyrium after all. Perhaps if the chantry would actually allow free trade of it humans could have a decent number of lyrium smiths and not have buy from the dwarfs.

[Eveangaline]

They helped Orlais my forbidding mages to fight on the side Ferelden when they fought to free themselves from Orlais while sending mages to help subjugate them. They also called an exalted march when the elfs did better against Orlais then expected. Then they maintain a strangle hold on the lyrium trade, a very valuable trade, rather then allowing it to become a free market system. We've seen that humans like Wade can work with lyrium after all. Perhaps if the chantry would actually allow free trade of it humans could have a decent number of lyrium smiths and not have buy from the dwarfs.

 

Plus the whole "outlawing dalish religion so they're forced to constantly be on the move to avoid getting attacked". If you're a good religion, you shouldn't have to make other religions illegal to keep people from converting away from yours.

 

But honestly I don't mind the chantry so long as they stick to dealing with religious matters. I don't want them making laws or running being allowed to take kids away from their families in whatever country they want, even if those families don't follow their religion.

[Super Drone]

You are somewhat right, yeah. But, on the other Hand, the Chantry doesn't exactly have good Competition in Terms of "Continent-spanning" Religions (assumed we're taking into Account something like Christianity).

 

The Problem with these Organization is never the Idea that lies at it's Bottom, but the Institutionalization and the Politicization that follow them. Because that alienates the Followers from the "spiritual" Idea and Philosophy and makes them subject to more "worldy" Influences, which lead to the Idea being twisted to sate these "worldly" Influences. Which are rarely positive - look at the Mage Issue and the different Interpretations of that one Sentence in the Chant of Light to get a perfect Example.

 

Granted. But that's true of all institutions. I imagine the Seekers of the Truth had the best of intentions for Mages when they formed the Circle of Magi. The Senate of the Tevinter Imperium was probably founded on the ideals of egalitarianism and open debate, not a weapon the Magisters use against every Archon who even thinks about banning slavery. Politics warps every institutions.

 

So why's The Chantry worse?

[Dean_the_Young]

Plus the whole "outlawing dalish religion so they're forced to constantly be on the move to avoid getting attacked". If you're a good religion, you shouldn't have to make other religions illegal to keep people from converting away from yours.

The Dalish aren't at risk of being attacked when in proximity of human settlements because of their religion. The Dalish are at risk of being attacked when in proximity of human settlements because Dalish and Humans have racial relations that range from poor to outright murderous. The Chantry's only involvement with the Dalish in the current age is via the Templars, and that is from the secular perspective of the fear of free mages (which rule the Dalish).

 

 

But honestly I don't mind the chantry so long as they stick to dealing with religious matters. I don't want them making laws or running being allowed to take kids away from their families in whatever country they want, even if those families don't follow their religion.

 

 

They don't. Besides that the Chantry and Templars are limited to the Andrastian countries, the Chantry doesn't make laws or edicts either. It isn't a legislative body, nor does it dictate legislation outside of very narrow spheres (which are the Chantry religious body and the Circle system). The Chantry's influence is by the agreement and consent of the countries themselves.

 

As for sticking with religious matters, there is the unfortunate reality of the lack of alternatives. There are no secular, or even rival religious, bodies that have the popular legitimacy or the ability to bring about, maintain, or keep an international system going against internal and external challenges as long as the Chantry has.

 

Besides the lack of a value of the separation of church and state in Thedas (where the governments least dominated by the spiritual/religious elite are ironically the Andrastian kingdoms), there's a general lack of meaningful institutions.

[Super Drone]

Plus the whole "outlawing dalish religion so they're forced to constantly be on the move to avoid getting attacked". If you're a good religion, you shouldn't have to make other religions illegal to keep people from converting away from yours.

 

But honestly I don't mind the chantry so long as they stick to dealing with religious matters. I don't want them making laws or running being allowed to take kids away from their families in whatever country they want, even if those families don't follow their religion.

 

The Chantry called an Exalted March on the Dales because the Elves attacked and killed Chantry Missionaries. Then started attacking the Faithful and trying to conquer their cities. It's hard for any organization to not step in and defend it's members from people who are not it's members. They also called Exalted Marches on the Qunari, who largely never got near Orlais in their conquering.

[Feybrad]

Granted. But that's true of all institutions. I imagine the Seekers of the Truth had the best of intentions for Mages when they formed the Circle of Magi. The Senate of the Tevinter Imperium was probably founded on the ideals of egalitarianism and open debate, not a weapon the Magisters use against every Archon who even thinks about banning slavery. Politics warps every institutions.

 

So why's The Chantry worse?

The Chantry called an Exalted March on the Dales because the Elves attacked and killed Chantry Missionaries. Then started attacking the Faithful and trying to conquer their cities. It's hard for any organization to not step in and defend it's members from people who are not it's members. They also called Exalted Marches on the Qunari, who largely never got near Orlais in their conquering.

 

1) The Case of Mages - The Chant does say, Magic should serve Man, not Rule. For the white Chantry, that means Mages have to be barred from Positions of Authority. The black Chantry says that this means Magic has to be apllied to help Man. Then we get into Politics and soon we have the white Chantry locking Mages into Circles and the black Chantry being controlled by Mages. I do not say that the Chantry is better or worse than anything - you are right when you say that it is, compared to other Examples of Continent-wide spanning Religious Organizations quite moderate. But I do say, that the Chantry would fare far better if it wasn't affected by political Influences. Most of it's more questionable Actions are Reasons of Politics. The Circle System (Political Reason: Preventing another Tevinter) and the Mess about Tevinter (Political Reason: Mages in Power have to compete, turn to evil means) as well as Point 2) are examples.

 

2) The actual Spark that started the Fire between the Chantry and the Dalish is a murky Matter at best. But I am certain that the Chantry would not start a War because of some Missionaries. No, the Chantry intervened in that War, because they were frightened about their political Power - just like it was when the Qunari showed up. In both Cases the Chantry saw Heathens sweeping trough the Land - the Dalish dangerously close to the Capital, the Qunari in record Time - and posing a very real threat towards the Power Centers of the Chantry. So the Chantry called Exalted Marches. Tadaa. Nothing about the Chant of Light and Philosophy, jsut Politics. It's always Politics.

[The Hierophant]

Veil tearing happens at any place of large death anyway so it's not like normal wars don't already cause that.

Avernus alone accomplished what even the Massacre at Ostagar didn't. A veil breach. Now imagine groups of desperate mages combating each other's spells and demons?

Nor is it really any more likely for countries to do this than it is for the chantry to do this and use them to attack groups that don't follow the chant.

Doubt it. Greagoire was real stingy with lending CoM members to the Wardens of Ostagar. Mind you, he was hesitant to allow the mages to fight against a potential Blight, which is usually a continental threat. I really doubt the Chantry would use mages wily nily, unlike Thedas' individual nations.

Plus the prospect of the Antivan Crows gaining access to Circle trained mages would be awful for Thedas.

[Eveangaline]

The Chantry called an Exalted March on the Dales because the Elves attacked and killed Chantry Missionaries. Then started attacking the Faithful and trying to conquer their cities. It's hard for any organization to not step in and defend it's members from people who are not it's members. They also called Exalted Marches on the Qunari, who largely never got near Orlais in their conquering.

 

I wasn't talking about the exalted march I'm talking about the fact that the Dalish religion is currently illegal and that forces them to have to wander around and not settle. Using the fact that your religion is the current most popular to outlaw others makes you a pretty **** religion.

 

I have no problem with the Chant if it can't make laws or interfere with people who don't want to follow the chant. Sadly they do, and are extremely militarized.

[Eveangaline]

Avernus alone accomplished what even the Massacre at Ostagar didn't. A veil breach. Now imagine groups of desperate mages combating each other's spells and demons?

Mages desperate to escape the chantry cirles are ripping the veil and resorting to demons to get away.

 

And the antivan crows already have access to apostates, probably plenty with training.  I think one way to lessen the amount of runaway mages is to improve the system, and I think one of those improvements is not have a religion that teaches mages made god go away be in charge of caring for mages. And again it's probably easier for mages to protest their treatment when they're protesting against nobles or the laws instead of God.

[Inprea]

Avernus alone accomplished what even the Massacre at Ostagar didn't. A veil breach. Now imagine groups of desperate mages combating each other's spells and demons?

Doubt it. Greagoire was real stingy with lending CoM members to the Wardens of Ostagar. Mind you, he was hesitant to allow the mages to fight against a potential Blight, which is usually a continental threat. I really doubt the Chantry would use mages wily nily, unlike Thedas' individual nations.

Plus the prospect of the Antivan Crows gaining access to Circle trained mages would be awful for Thedas.

 

Yet the slaughter of an orphanage was enough to weaken the veil and let a demon in. No where near the scale of death at a major battle. It seems the amount of death needed to let a demon in is inconsistent.

[MisterJB]

Plus the whole "outlawing dalish religion so they're forced to constantly be on the move to avoid getting attacked". If you're a good religion, you shouldn't have to make other religions illegal to keep people from converting away from yours.

They don't. World of Thedas page 47:

"The old ways are disappearing, but the Chantry does not demand their removal or promote hatred against the old deities. The Maker simply stand above them,"

 

The elven faith is an execption because they burned half of Orlais, sacked the seat of the Chantry and killed an untold number of humans.

Understandably, there were repercussions.

[Eveangaline]

They don't. World of Thedas page 47:

"The old ways are disappearing, but the Chantry does not demand their removal or promote hatred against the old deities. The Maker simply stand above them,"

 

The elven faith is an execption because they burned half of Orlais, sacked the seat of the Chantry and killed an untold number of humans.

Understandably, there were repercussions.

 

The chantry has also had lots of people killed in exalted marches, but I don't think it should be illegal to worship andraste or the maker. Making a religion illegal because there was a war between nations is not understandable.

[The Hierophant]

Mages desperate to escape the chantry cirles are ripping the veil and resorting to demons to get away.
 
And the antivan crows already have access to apostates, probably plenty with training.  I think one way to lessen the amount of runaway mages is to improve the system, and I think one of those improvements is not have a religion that teaches mages made god go away be in charge of caring for mages. And again it's probably easier for mages to protest their treatment when they're protesting against nobles or the laws instead of God.

This is cool and all but my original point is that in comparison to the Chantry, the nations of Thedas will have little to no restraint when using the mages abilities against their neighbors.

Plus after reading The Masked Empire i also think that the nobility might be more influential than the Chantry, yet their deviousness puts a damper on any potential gestures of goodwill for the mages.

Yet the slaughter of an orphanage was enough to weaken the veil and let a demon in. No where near the scale of death at a major battle. It seems the amount of death needed to let a demon in is inconsistent.

Aside from that quest being inconsistent with the lore i think an alternative explanation might be that it's possible for countless civilians to have died in that spot over the centuries, or millennia.

[LobselVith8]

The Chantry called an Exalted March on the Dales because the Elves attacked and killed Chantry Missionaries. Then started attacking the Faithful and trying to conquer their cities. It's hard for any organization to not step in and defend it's members from people who are not it's members. They also called Exalted Marches on the Qunari, who largely never got near Orlais in their conquering.

 

The Chantry version is that the war started because the elves attacked Red Crossing and that an Exalted March was called when the elves neared the capital during the actual war, while the Dalish version is that humans invaded because the elves wouldn't convert to the human religion (which is why the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry). The player isn't in a position to know which side is the correct version, and even World of Thedas is rather ambiguous as to who started the war.

[MisterJB]

The chantry has also had lots of people killed in exalted marches, but I don't think it should be illegal to worship andraste or the maker. Making a religion illegal because there was a war between nations is not understandable.

If that's what you believe, then that's what you believe.

But the fact remains that th Chantry doesn't forbid the elven religion simply because it's a different religion or because they're afraid of converts.

They do it because there's a bloody history bewteen elvens and humans.

 

If anyone has attempted to curb a religion due to number of converts, it was the dwarves in the epilogue.