537 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Mages desperate to escape the chantry cirles are ripping the veil and resorting to demons to get away.

 

And the antivan crows already have access to apostates, probably plenty with training.  I think one way to lessen the amount of runaway mages is to improve the system, and I think one of those improvements is not have a religion that teaches mages made god go away be in charge of caring for mages. And again it's probably easier for mages to protest their treatment when they're protesting against nobles or the laws instead of God.

The point was that Avernus was used in the same way any ruler would use mages if they could have acess to them and the result was blood magic, demons and an entire keep being cursed for centuries.

Hence why placing mages in the hands of monarchs is a terrible idea.
 

And do you really think peasants have an easy time protesting against abuses perpretated by nobles?

[Super Drone]

The chantry has also had lots of people killed in exalted marches, but I don't think it should be illegal to worship andraste or the maker. Making a religion illegal because there was a war between nations is not understandable.

 

They made the religion illegal because it was openly hostile to humans and caused the Dalish kingdom to become isolationist and threatening to their subjects (Andrastian humans). It's self defense, the same reason they fight against and condemn the Qunari. In contrast to the heathan faiths of the Old Gods, abd the Avvars gods and the like, which were faiths they left alone to slowly die out.

[LobselVith8]

They made the religion illegal because it was openly hostile to humans and caused the Dalish kingdom to become isolationist and threatening to their subjects (Andrastian humans). It's self defense, the same reason they fight against and condemn the Qunari. In contrast to the heathan faiths of the Old Gods, the Avvars gads and the like, which were faiths they left alone to slowly die out.

 

The Chantry version actually condemns the elves for wanting to be left alone, so I don't see how that makes the elves a threat to humans. And I think it's a bit far fetched to compare isolationism with invasion (i.e. the Dales and the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches).

[Super Drone]

The Chantry version actually condemns the elves for wanting to be left alone, so I don't see how that makes the elves a threat to humans. And I think it's a bit far fetched to compare isolationism with invasion (i.e. the Dales and the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches).

 Sacking Val Royeaux and Red Crossing certainly would count as threatening humans

[MisterJB]

Honestly, would you trust this man with a mage army?

 

[LobselVith8]

 Sacking Val Royeaux and Red Crossing certainly would count as threatening humans

 

Which depends on which side is telling the truth, and both the Chantry and the Dalish blame the other for starting the war.

[KainD]

I came up with the solution in my first "Eureka!" thread: present the delimma to the Tranquil.

 

The Tranquil do not have emotions. Thus they do not fear the Templars. They also do not suffer from emotional ties to other mages. I would consider them the best equipped to find a solution to the Mage Problem.

 

Nah, Tranquil can't find solutions to anything, because they just don't care. 

[The Hierophant]

Which depends on which side is telling the truth, and both the Chantry and the Dalish blame the other for starting the war.

The border skirmishes of Red Crossing is dubious but isn't it noted that the Dalish pushed well into Orlesian territory before an Exalted March was called on to repel them?

[Inprea]

Aside from that quest being inconsistent with the lore i think an alternative explanation might be that it's possible for countless civilians to have died in that spot over the centuries, or millennia.

 

So you believe the veil cares if they're civilian deaths or not? If deaths over the centuries could accumulate like that Ostagar should already had a note worthy demon presence as it was a major defensive location. There is also the matter of vigil's keep. The only demon I remember seeing inside there was the shade some joker decided to trap inside of it instead of well killing the darn thing.

 

There is also the village we find Shale in. A lot of them seemed to died, while in great pain, during the dark spawn attack but the only demons we encounter are in the section of the lab demons were being studied in. The one with mystic traps.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Which depends on which side is telling the truth, and both the Chantry and the Dalish blame the other for starting the war.

Not really, im pretty sure the Dalish admit that the Red Crossing attack officially began the war with Orlais, they just say that Orlais provoked them 1st

[LobselVith8]

The border skirmishes of Red Crossing is dubious but isn't it noted that the Dalish pushed well into Orlesian territory before an Exalted March was called on to repel them.

 

It's a statement that requires context. If the Dalish were retaliating against a neighboring enemy who threatened their religious freedom to follow the Creators and the autonomy of their mages, then it colors their actions in trying to nullify the Orlesian Empire from threatening them, as Drakon established Orlais through a series of Exalted Marches against his neighbors to create an empire solely under the worship of the Maker (and his particular brand of the Cult of the Maker, nationalized as the one, true religion). We know that Drakon's difficulties with the Dales even prevented his ambitions to conquer the Free Marches, which is why he turned to the use of missionaries to spread the Chant instead.

[LobselVith8]

Not really, im pretty sure the Dalish admit that the Red Crossing attack officially began the war with Orlais

 

Not at all. The Dalish codex, and even the elven Warden's condemnation of the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert, address that there are at least two different historical accounts about the inception of the war. Even hahren Sarethia of the Highever Alienage addressed the Chantry's problem with the elves following a different religion in the independent kingdom of the Dales: "But you already know that something went wrong. Our ancestors' worship of the old elven gods angered the human Chantry, which constantly sent missionaries to our land. The Chantry wanted to convert our people to their worship of the Maker, but the Dalish would not submit."

 

Of course, no one knows which side is the indisputable truth. Even WoT's entry on the war with the Dales is truncated and ambiguous as to who started the conflict that lead to the fall of the Dales. I doubt this will be clarified in Inquisition. At most, the human and elven Inquisitor will have two different perspectives on the war that transpired in the Dales.

[Hellion Rex]

Nah, Tranquil can't find solutions to anything, because they just don't care.

Do remember that it was a tranquil that managed to find a cure to Tranquility.

[The Hierophant]

It's a statement that requires context. If the Dalish were retaliating against a neighboring enemy who threatened their religious freedom to follow the Creators and the autonomy of their mages, then it colors their actions in trying to nullify the Orlesian Empire from threatening them, as Drakon established Orlais through a series of Exalted Marches against his neighbors to create an empire solely under the worship of the Maker (and his particular brand of the Cult of the Maker, nationalized as the one, true religion). We know that Drakon's difficulties with the Dales even prevented his ambitions to conquer the Free Marches, which is why he turned to the use of missionaries to spread the Chant instead.

The only issue i have with this is that this codex suggested that the Chantry was declared the established religion of Orlais, and the first Divine was elected after Drakon was christened the emperor of Orlais.

[SofaJockey]

The mages could ultimately be guarded by mages themselves: a new structure of Templar mages.

Yes, self-guarding is problematic but the templar mages could themselves be accountable to the Inquisition.

 

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

"Who will guard the guards themselves?"

[LobselVith8]

The only issue i have with this is that this codex suggested that the Chantry was declared the established religion of Orlais, and the first Divine was elected after Drakon was christened the emperor of Orlais.

 

I was addressing the History of the Chantry: Part 4: "There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself."

[Hellion Rex]

The mages could ultimately be guarded by mages themselves: a new structure of Templar mages.

Yes, self-guarding is problematic but the templar mages could themselves be accountable to the Inquisition.

 

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

"Who will guard the guards themselves?"

At the end of the day, I believe that if we have someone to better hold Templars accountable for their transgressions. And perhaps, Loyalist mages might be allowed to join the Seekers, to better promote cooperation between all three groups.

[The Hierophant]

I was addressing the History of the Chantry: Part 4: "There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself."

I know Genetivi calls them Exalted Marches but none of them are listed along with Andraste's, Tevinter's, the Dales', and the Qunari's marches.

Genetivi so far is the only source that classifies them as EM, what the flip is up with this?

[Super Drone]

The mages could ultimately be guarded by mages themselves: a new structure of Templar mages.

Yes, self-guarding is problematic but the templar mages could themselves be accountable to the Inquisition.

 

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

"Who will guard the guards themselves?"

 

And who is the Inquisition accountable to?

[KainD]

Not true. Not having emotions doesn't mean you don't care, or that you can't understand dangers and benefits. The second one mainly. They don't even have to care, just be told to deliberate, and they can do it.

 

Still don't understand how that is supposed to go. I always imagine planet Miranda when I think of Tranquil.

[LobselVith8]

I know Genetivi calls them Exalted Marches but none of them are listed along with Andraste's, Tevinter's, the Dales', and the Qunari's marches.

Genetivi so far is the only source that classifies them as EM, what the flip is up with this?

 

Hard to say. Given the ruins of the temple serving as a location, perhaps he might show up in Inquisition, and the protagonist can converse with him about some of his writings? I'm sure he might have some interest in what happened, and the significance of the protagonist as the "sole survivor", if he's still around; he is a scholar, after all.

[Lanavis]

"Option D ) Kill them all.

Result: Lots of dead 6-year-olds and innocent people. But, it's the only permanent solution. Not ethical at all, but effective"

 

That still wouldn't be effective b/c nonmages can produce mage children and eventually either the family members and nonmage friends of mages will rebel and/or the mages themselves who manage to escape the genocide will rebel, but this time with a 100% justified reason to despise society and commit grand atrocities like Anders in DA2 in order to make change.

[The Hierophant]

just noticed...

So you believe the veil cares if they're civilian deaths or not? If deaths over the centuries could accumulate like that Ostagar should already had a note worthy demon presence as it was a major defensive location. There is also the matter of vigil's keep. The only demon I remember seeing inside there was the shade some joker decided to trap inside of it instead of well killing the darn thing.

There is also the village we find Shale in. A lot of them seemed to died, while in great pain, during the dark spawn attack but the only demons we encounter are in the section of the lab demons were being studied in. The one with mystic traps.

All this tells me in relation to my original point is that mages can consistently bring demons over into Thedas and weaken the veil while the number or types of deaths needed to do the same is dubious.

But if we're in the train of thought that an orphanage full of kids is all that's needed to weaken the veil, then lulz. If all it took was that then Thedas' collective Veil should've been torn to shreds thousands years ago.