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Regarding Mages: I can't think of any solution that would actually work


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#176
Helios969

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Why do you think free mages would cause an increase in abominations? Tevinter has 100% free mages yet they've never had a major issue with abominations. Abominations are a result of Chantry imprisoning mages for crimes they haven't committed.
 
I also find it disgusting to assume that because on mage society ended with Tevinter's morals that any and all mage society would end up being like Tevinter.... that's racist.


At best that is speculation since we've never been to Tevinter. I wouldn't think they'd make such a problem common knowledge. One might speculate that if what you assert is true then it's likely the result of selective breeding by the powerful mage families combined with hundreds of years of educational tradition in the magical arts.

Does anyone know if they have a harrowing in Tevinter? Maybe it's especially brutal as a way to eliminate weaker mages more likely of becoming an abomination. Of course given what we do know maybe they don't care if the odd abomination wipes out a few hundred citizens...the price you pay for a mage-ocracy.

#177
MrDuck

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I'd make sure that mages receive all the necessary education and info about the dangers of demonic posession and stuff.

 

And I'd keep a templar like order on the side in villages and cities that can take action when an abomination or something like that breaks out.

 

I wouldn't let those templars keep a constant watch on them though to avoid the mages feeling like they're viewed as dangers and outcasts. Because that's what leads them to using blood magic and stuff. Not necesarily of course, but it's one of the reasons imo.



#178
EmperorSahlertz

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Why do you think free mages would cause an increase in abominations? Tevinter has 100% free mages yet they've never had a major issue with abominations. Abominations are a result of Chantry imprisoning mages for crimes they haven't committed.

 

I also find it disgusting to assume that because on mage society ended with Tevinter's morals that any and all mage society would end up being like Tevinter.... that's racist.

Except that mages are actually NOT free in Tevinter, and Tevinter adheres to almost the same Circle system as the rest of Thedas.....



#179
Dean_the_Young

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From what's shown of the orphanage that's all it does take. Though if it was easy for a mage to call upon a demon I question why every scared child locked in a barn with a mob outside of it didn't turn into an abomination or the ones that didn't want to go to the circle. Children don't do a very good job of planning for the future after all. 

The presence or availability of a spirit on hand to make the bargain would be a sensible prerequisite, and that is one that is as maleable as plot demands it. We do know that the spirits aren't omnipresent, and that they have their own preferences for what they're inclined to watch for: demons tend to desire stronger targets, and children aren't. (I believe Connor was mentioned as a target because of his political power potential.)

 

Compare it to a game of minefield: you know there are mines out there, but you don't know where. It could be any of them, but it isn't every one of them. Throw in modifiers like 'strength of the veil' or 'strength of the mage' and anything else, and you adjust the difficulty level.



#180
Dean_the_Young

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Except that mages are actually NOT free in Tevinter, and Tevinter adheres to almost the same Circle system as the rest of Thedas.....

It doesn't.



#181
TheKomandorShepard

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Except that mages are actually NOT free in Tevinter, and Tevinter adheres to almost the same Circle system as the rest of Thedas.....

To be honest tevinter exists much longer than circles so circles aren't necessarily only 1 system that magical society can reamain.Now question how old tevinter dealt with those problems.Of course tevinter still is best example what mage dominated society looks.   



#182
EmperorSahlertz

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It doesn't.

There are Circles in Tevinter, which follow almost the exact same rules as the rest of the Thedosian Circles. However, there are a lot more social mobility for Tevinter Mages. And then there is also the mindset of the Tevinter people: They see it as an honor to be part of a Circle.



#183
Basement Cat

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According to the David Gaider (in Lady Insanity's interview), the Tevinter are obsessed with perfection. They have to conform to a very strict model of behavior to achieve power in their society, and maybe that is why they are less subject to possession. They constantly repress their emotions in order to present an acceptable image that will benefit themselves and their family. 

 

Think about it:

being wrathful leads to making mistakes in a political arena: unacceptable

being prideful blinds you to your ennemies schemes: unacceptable

being lustful/envious is just plain weak: unacceptable

 

No need to explain why being lazy is no good in that society. That's my theory anyway.



#184
Mistic

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According to the David Gaider (in Lady Insanity's interview), the Tevinter are obsessed with perfection. They have to conform to a very strict model of behavior to achieve power in their society, and maybe that is why they are less subject to possession. They constantly repress their emotions in order to present an acceptable image that will benefit themselves and their family. 

 

Think about it:

being wrathful leads to making mistakes in a political arena: unacceptable

being prideful blinds you to your ennemies schemes: unacceptable

being lustful/envious is just plain weak: unacceptable

 

No need to explain why being lazy is no good in that society. That's my theory anyway.

 

And that's another layer to the Tevinter system. Interesting.

 

Truth be told, until Dorian explains a bit more about it, we don't know much about the Tevinter system. Even its opponents should take it into consideration. Tevinter Circles are the oldest in Thedas, and still running. That's a record. Also, it's one of the most flexible systems we know so far, because they've experienced several changes through history and still exist.

 

I'm not saying that it's the best (a salver magocracy wouldn't be my first choice to deal with magic, after all), but it shouldn't be dismissed without having a good look at its strenghts and weaknesses. Let's hope DA:I provides a bit of information, although I suppose we'll have to wait until a DA game is set in the Imperium.



#185
MisterJB

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I'm not saying that it's the best (a salver magocracy wouldn't be my first choice to deal with magic, after all), but it shouldn't be dismissed without having a good look at its strenghts and weaknesses.

This position seems a bit biased, don't you think?

I'm not claiming this is something you do, but several people have made the claim that the current war proves the Circle doesn't work and needs to be scrapped. However, people are not so quick to say the same about Tevinter despite how its system has lead to the creation of nothing less than eight new nations and the Circle system itself.



#186
Guest_john_sheparrd_*

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I say give them the opportunity to surrender(I imagine not all want to fight) and those who do will be locked in the Circles ones again

the others will be killed

Then I would make sure that they are treated MUCH better in the circles and that it doesn't feel so much like prison

the templars should also be kept much more in line they are almost as crazy as the mages


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#187
Xilizhra

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This position seems a bit biased, don't you think?

I'm not claiming this is something you do, but several people have made the claim that the current war proves the Circle doesn't work and needs to be scrapped. However, people are not so quick to say the same about Tevinter despite how its system has lead to the creation of nothing less than eight new nations and the Circle system itself.

What's the point of claiming that the Circle system needs to be scrapped when it's already ended? The mages left the Chantry and the Chantry let them go.


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#188
Mistic

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This position seems a bit biased, don't you think?

I'm not claiming this is something you do, but several people have made the claim that the current war proves the Circle doesn't work and needs to be scrapped. However, people are not so quick to say the same about Tevinter despite how its system has lead to the creation of nothing less than eight new nations and the Circle system itself.

 

It's true, the old form of the Tevinter Imperium did fail hard (I would have mentioned the First Blight as its main failure, but that's just nitpicking). It was Hessarian who managed to provide the necessary changes for it to endure another thousand years.

 

So maybe this is the time for another Transfiguration, but this time in Southern Thedas? Although depending on what Dorian says about Tevinter, maybe the Imperium needs another one too (that's my guess, actually).



#189
Dean_the_Young

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There are Circles in Tevinter, which follow the exact same rules as the rest of the Thedosian Circles.

 

They don't.



#190
Dean_the_Young

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What's the point of claiming that the Circle system needs to be scrapped when it's already ended? The mages left the Chantry and the Chantry let them go.

 

The point would be the difference between the transitive and the past tense. The Mages are rebelling- they have not succeeded in replacing the old model with a new one. The Chantry is unable to prevent them from going: it may succeed in drawing them back.

 

The Circle system is in a period of crisis and transition: it has not already ended.


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#191
Dean_the_Young

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It's true, the old form of the Tevinter Imperium did fail hard (I would have mentioned the First Blight as its main failure, but that's just nitpicking). It was Hessarian who managed to provide the necessary changes for it to endure another thousand years.

 

So maybe this is the time for another Transfiguration, but this time in Southern Thedas? Although depending on what Dorian says about Tevinter, maybe the Imperium needs another one too (that's my guess, actually).

 

There's also the matter of analyzing what the Circle in Tevinter is meant to accomplish, and what the Circles in Andrastian Thedas are meant to accomplish. Longevity is meaningless if it serves the wrong functions, and detrimental when longevity is a result of counter-productive policies.



#192
MisterJB

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It's true, the old form of the Tevinter Imperium did fail hard (I would have mentioned the First Blight as its main failure, but that's just nitpicking). It was Hessarian who managed to provide the necessary changes for it to endure another thousand years.

 

So maybe this is the time for another Transfiguration, but this time in Southern Thedas? Although depending on what Dorian says about Tevinter, maybe the Imperium needs another one too (that's my guess, actually).

Well, Hessarian failed, really. He accomplished what he set out to do in life; what that was is unclear but he managed to take down Maferath who might have united the South, hold on to power and use the lower classes to destroy his Magister rivals; but, after his death, the Altus who survived just reverted Tevinter back to what it used to be, it only took a century.

Under Hessarian, non-mages were the highest ranked clerics in the Chantry and had seats reserved in the Magisterium; now, all of those positions are reserved for mages only.

 

"Transfiguration" is really an erroneous term.



#193
TK514

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According to the David Gaider (in Lady Insanity's interview), the Tevinter are obsessed with perfection. They have to conform to a very strict model of behavior to achieve power in their society, and maybe that is why they are less subject to possession. They constantly repress their emotions in order to present an acceptable image that will benefit themselves and their family. 

 

Think about it:

being wrathful leads to making mistakes in a political arena: unacceptable

being prideful blinds you to your ennemies schemes: unacceptable

being lustful/envious is just plain weak: unacceptable

 

No need to explain why being lazy is no good in that society. That's my theory anyway.

 

I'm pretty sure the Magisters we've seen have failed your prideful and lustful/envious tests.



#194
KainD

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Except that mages are actually NOT free in Tevinter, and Tevinter adheres to almost the same Circle system as the rest of Thedas.....


Nope, mages are free in Tevinter. Being part of the circle is a privilege, and not mandatory.

#195
Former_Fiend

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To me, the circle system in Rivain is probably the best example of a solution. 

 

Other than that, I think the aspect of the circle that needs the most improvement is that the templars need tighter oversight to make sure they don't abuse their authority.


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#196
LobselVith8

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What's the point of claiming that the Circle system needs to be scrapped when it's already ended? The mages left the Chantry and the Chantry let them go.


With the Inquisitor serving as the deciding factor in whether or not the mages are able to maintain their autonomy, since Cameron Lee said the player can side with either the mages or the templars, and bring their respective faction into the Inquisition.

For those of us who find the Chantry controlled Circles abhorrent, it's an opportunity to help bring to life the dream of people like Aldenon the Wise, who proclaimed to Calenhad, “A civilization cannot be civil if it condones the slavery of another. And that is what this Circle is! But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to live, love, and die as they choose. The Circles will break - if it be one year, a decade, a century, or beyond. Tyrants always fall, and the downtrodden always strive for freedom!”
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#197
Dean_the_Young

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Aldenon should also have cautioned his followers about how Revolution devours its own children.

 

But, eh. Aldenon the Wise was wise by comparison to his time. I'm probably expecting too much of him.


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#198
Gervaise

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The problem is everyone always approaches it from the wrong direction, that of mages versus non-mages.   Actually the problem throughout Thedas is nobility versus peasantry.   No matter what part you are in the nobility ensure the laws are framed to ensure their maintenance of power.  

 

In Tevinter the nobility consists of mages.   They come from long lines of mages and their society is structure to maintain their power.   Even when mages were not meant to be able to govern, they controlled matters from behind the scenes until eventually they were able to restore their right to govern.   I have asked the question, with no conclusive answer, what becomes of the non-mage nobility.   The assumption is they fulfil minor roles in government and possibly diplomatic roles outside of Tevinter.   Since they are still part of the nobility, there is no incentive to challenge this.  The Magisters control the training of all mages, including those that arise among the peasantry and slaves.   Either they are elevated in rank or weeded out and killed.

 

In the rest of Thedas the nobility comprises mostly non-mages.   Whilst mages still crop up from time to time in their families, they are the exception rather than the rule and those who do not have mages within their ranks are most likely to support the Circle system.   Not only does this stop your rivals among the nobility from having an unfair advantage but also, more importantly, it stops the peasantry from having the sort of power in their ranks that could actually challenge the status quo.    On the whole the children of nobles who enter the Circles seem to have a much better time of it than the children of peasants.    The former seem to be allowed to keep contact with their families, have certain privileges and even hand picked Templars to watch over them.   The latter are cut off totally from their families, have few rights and no one to stand up for them if Templars start to abuse their power.   

 

 

Whilst it might appear that the Dalish offer an alternative model, it should be remembered that we do not know exactly what happened during the fall of the Dales.   We merely have two versions of the same conflict.    Because a lot of people are prejudiced against the Chantry, they assume they are the villains of the piece and lying about elven atrocities.    However, it could well be that the elf mages, who by this time did seem to be at the head of affairs, may have been indulging in corrupt practices.    The very fact that mages were in charge in the Dales  probably set alarm bells ringing in the minds of the Chantry, since they had only recently set up the Circles to keep mages controlled and out of government.     The Dalish are meant to be the remnants of the nobility of the Dales, with Keepers are the head of affairs who are always mages.      This would seem to suggest that elves who were captured and rounded up into alienages were in fact the peasantry and quite possibly abandoned by the nobility when the fight appeared helpless.

 

So the only way to solve the situation would be to have a much broader distribution of power in government.    If at the head of affairs you had a ruling council, with places on it for nobles, merchants, the military, Chantry, mages, artisans, scholars, etc, this would ensure that no one group could grab onto power and keep it by repressing other members of society.   Mages would have representation as a group but would also identify with their own sector of society.     If you are genuinely living with your family, whatever their rank in society, you are far less likely to take advantage of them or let other people do so.     Also they would be far less likely to be fearful of mages as a group.    Naturally there will always be bad elements but that is the case whatever you are.    If mages are evenly distributed across society they will be policing these matters themselves.   



#199
LobselVith8

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Whilst it might appear that the Dalish offer an alternative model, it should be remembered that we do not know exactly what happened during the fall of the Dales. We merely have two versions of the same conflict. Because a lot of people are prejudiced against the Chantry, they assume they are the villains of the piece and lying about elven atrocities.


It's a little more complicated than that.

However, it could well be that the elf mages, who by this time did seem to be at the head of affairs, may have been indulging in corrupt practices. The very fact that mages were in charge in the Dales probably set alarm bells ringing in the minds of the Chantry, since they had only recently set up the Circles to keep mages controlled and out of government. The Dalish are meant to be the remnants of the nobility of the Dales, with Keepers are the head of affairs who are always mages. This would seem to suggest that elves who were captured and rounded up into alienages were in fact the peasantry and quite possibly abandoned by the nobility when the fight appeared helpless.


The Keepers are usually descended from the nobility, but the clans aren't comprised of strictly displaced descendants of nobility. Neither the Dalish or City Elf accounts read that it was only the nobility who escaped the Chantry forces, either. It seemed to be that some elves (of all classes) were able to escape en mass, while others either submitted or died fighting, like General Rajmael.

So the only way to solve the situation would be to have a much broader distribution of power in government. If at the head of affairs you had a ruling council, with places on it for nobles, merchants, the military, Chantry, mages, artisans, scholars, etc, this would ensure that no one group could grab onto power and keep it by repressing other members of society. Mages would have representation as a group but would also identify with their own sector of society. If you are genuinely living with your family, whatever their rank in society, you are far less likely to take advantage of them or let other people do so. Also they would be far less likely to be fearful of mages as a group. Naturally there will always be bad elements but that is the case whatever you are. If mages are evenly distributed across society they will be policing these matters themselves.


How do you think nations would move away from traditions of being ruled by the nobility to your model? I'm genuinely curious.

#200
MisterJB

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This is starting to look like some arguments about real-life immigration I've had recently. It starts with culture and race and economy and eventually someone comes along and claims the real conflict is between the classes.