537 réponses à ce sujet

[Palidane]

I think we need to be careful making assumptions about cultures we don't know much about. It's easy to say that since we haven't heard of abominations in The Dales/Rivain/Avaar/Tevinter, they aren't a problem, but we don't know that. We know it happens to the Dalish, and when it does, it has even-odds of wiping out the whole clan. It happens in Rivain, but they view it as more of a natural disaster than something that can be prevented. Everything other than that is guess-work on both sides.

 

I will say though, I think Bioware has kind of dropped the ball when it comes to abominations. We have basically no consistent information on them, from their frequency to threat level. We hear about one abomination burning a village to the ground, but then the Warden kills 30 of them singlehandedly. We need concrete information if the mage issue is ever going to be resolved.

[CapivaRasgor]

This is starting to look like some arguments about real-life immigration I've had recently. It starts with culture and race and economy and eventually someone comes along and claims the real conflict is between the classes.

Hey, Godwin's Law may still be approaching 1 here...

As for the topic, I don't see how we can make mundanes coexist with mages and have both satisfied. I believe that whatever solution has to try and balance the freedoms of the mages and the safety of the mundanes. Maybe incorporating them on the Inquisition will have them some freedoms in Inquisition governed lands while the Inquisition regulates their magic.

[Panda]

There will be always criminals and wars IRL as well. I think compromise would make largest amount of people happy and unwilling to fight or commit crimes so I think templars as special police force would be best. D would just be unethical and cause new mages will always be born its not final option either.

[Gervaise]

I'm not saying my model would work without a major revolution, that is unlikely to happen, at least in DAI.   What I am saying is the mages themselves are not the problem, society as a whole is the problem.

 

For examples of how mages seem to operate perfectly well outside the Circles, you have the Mages Collective (who seem anxious to police themselves), you do have the Dalish (where on the face of it the Keepers are not tyrants), you have Malcolm Hawke and family (whilst you can play Hawke as bad, even Meredith acknowledges that Bethany is an exemplary mage, despite having being raised and trained outside the Circle) and you also do have the example of the Rivaini wise women (who are held in such high regard by their communities that even the Qun thought it wise not to interfere).      

 

Most of the problems with mages stem from superstitious fear, which not only affects how other people view them but how many mages view themselves.   This is largely down to Chantry dogma and collective folk memory of the rule of the Tevinter Magisters.   The sad thing is that the majority of mages are not particularly powerful.    So provided they had sufficient training how to protect themselves from possession, they could quite happily be left in the community doing the odd bit if healing, with no ambitions beyond that.     The ridiculous part is that all the really powerful and dangerous mages we have encountered have been outside the Circle, either apostates or connected in some way to Tevinter.    Putting the Circles back into place is hardly going to change this.  

[EmperorSahlertz]

They don't.

By all means then please point towards where it is indicated that the Circles of Tevinter does not work like those in the rest of Thedas.

[General TSAR]

Saarebas treatment but with more indoctrination. 

[Hellion Rex]

By all means then please point towards where it is indicated that the Circles of Tevinter does not work like those in the rest of Thedas.

Umm...considering the Templars don't really do anything in Tevinter, I'd say that is a major difference.

[Gervaise]

The Circles in Tevinter are controlled by the Magisters and the Black Divine (who combines the role with First Enchanter I seem to recall).   The Templars are there to do the bidding of the Magisters.   They are meant to police things but they see only those things the Magisters want them to see and hunt down only the mages that the Magisters want hunted.      Mage children from non mage families are still removed and placed in Circles, so they can be trained in accordance with the doctrine of the Magisters.   Since the nobility in Tevinter are dominated by mages, this means that the only children who are separated from their families are those of peasants and slaves, for the obvious reason that the Magisters do not want to leave powerful people among them.

 

It is interesting to note that if, as has been suggested, Andraste was in fact a mage, then you can see all the more reason why the Magisters would not wish to repeat history by allowing a former slave mage to be free outside of their control.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Umm...considering the Templars don't really do anything in Tevinter, I'd say that is a major difference.

Templars and Circles are two seperate entities. The rules of the Circle seems to be almost identical between the Circle of Magi and the Imperial Circle. They both consist of apprentices, who advance to enchanter, who advances to Senior Enchanter, who can become First Enchanter. The major difference between the two institutions is the social mobility for the mage in Tevinter. He can gain a seat in Magisterium or the Imperial Chantry. But that is about it.

[KainD]

Saarebas treatment but with more indoctrination.

More than a guy burning himself to death?

[Dean_the_Young]

By all means then please point towards where it is indicated that the Circles of Tevinter does not work like those in the rest of Thedas.

We could raise the topics of Templars, inheritance, family rights, travel rights, voluntary versus mandatory roles, the open question of the Harrowing and Tranquility, organizational oversight, and the classification and effective treatment of forbidden schools of magic.

 

We could, but I think that pointing out that the Chantry circles prevent mages from being in the nobility and ruling the realm, while Tevinter Circle mages are the nobility and rulers of the realm, should be obvious enough to illustrate that Tevinter Circle and Chantry Circles operate on entirely different premise and rule sets.

[EmperorSahlertz]

We could raise the topics of Templars, inheritance, family rights, travel rights, voluntary versus mandatory roles, the open question of the Harrowing and Tranquility, organizational oversight, and the classification and effective treatment of forbidden schools of magic.

 

We could, but I think that pointing out that the Chantry circles prevent mages from being in the nobility and ruling the realm, while Tevinter Circle mages are the nobility and rulers of the realm, should be obvious enough to illustrate that Tevinter Circle and Chantry Circles operate on entirely different premise and rule sets.

Which is all fine and dandy. The truth of the matter however is that most mages in Tevinter are NOT nobles. As I said, the Imperial Circle operate almost the same way as the Circle of Magi, with the main difference being the social mobility. However for the rank of file mage, the Imperial Circle and the Circle of Magi is largely the same.

[Allazor]

Saarebas treatment but with more indoctrination. 

 

How would that work ? Saarebas are treated like weapons , they have no training and will kill themselves if they disobey the Qun. More indoctrination within an Andrastian religion would mean that they would kill themselves on mass, before even being of any use to those that would cage them and send them to fight their wars - i thinking here of greedy human nobles and kings and queens of Thedas. Like i said before Chantry demilitarizing the mages and making them independent from local powers did a good job, but making them "slaves" to the will of the Templars guarding them was huge mistake, that now bites them in their holy behind. I will see what the mages want for themselves and i will consider that when deciding their future, but i will not make them weapons of greedy, overambitious, pious morons who think Maker gave them the right to use mages to their whims and further their agenda. After I close the breach, the Inquisition will the Wolds super power and the Chantry won't have the right to say anything on the subject of mages without consulting Me. And if they call an Exalted March on Me, well then i will pull all my strings and see how many people will satnd with them against the saviours of this World. The age of Divines has ended , the age of the Inqusition has begun.

[Dean_the_Young]

Which is all fine and dandy. The truth of the matter however is that most mages in Tevinter are NOT nobles. As I said, the Imperial Circle operate almost the same way as the Circle of Magi, with the main difference being the social mobility. However for the rank of file mage, the Imperial Circle and the Circle of Magi is largely the same.

You keep saying it, but repitition doesn't make it true.

 

Besides which, you are mistaken on a separate fact as well. All mages are nobility: all mages are not Magisters, which are analogous to Senators and are the super-elite, but even the lowest elven mage is higher socially than the richest non-mage human citizen.

 

Or so says David Gaider in one of the gaymer dev interviews. I'll take his word over your repetitions.

[Dean_the_Young]

 After I close the breach, the Inquisition will the Wolds super power and the Chantry won't have the right to say anything on the subject of mages without consulting Me. And if they call an Exalted March on Me, well then i will pull all my strings and see how many people will satnd with them against the saviours of this World. The age of Divines has ended , the age of the Inqusition has begun.

 

Wut.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You keep saying it, but repitition doesn't make it true.

 

Besides which, you are mistaken on a separate fact as well. All mages are nobility: all mages are not Magisters, which are analogous to Senators and are the super-elite, but even the lowest elven mage is higher socially than the richest non-mage human citizen.

 

Or so says David Gaider in one of the gaymer dev interviews. I'll take his word over your repetitions.

Except that we have it from the writers that there is such a thing as Mage slaves. Fenris' sister jumps to mind. But I guess we are igoring these in lala land? Righto.

[Dean_the_Young]

Except that we have it from the writers that there is such a thing as Mage slaves. Fenris' sister jumps to mind. But I guess we are igoring these in lala land? Righto.

 

Fenris's sister is a poor example because we know little about her status, including when she manifested (which is quite relevant). What little we do know has nothing in common with the Andrastian circle system, though- so either you're wrong because WoG that may or may not contradict third-issue factors of DA2 or you are wrong because DA2 doesn't support your claim of the Tevinter Circle.

 

Neither does any other source, come to think of it.

[Allazor]

Wut.

 

Just my idea for the perfect ending of my Inqusition playthrough 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Fenris's sister is a poor example because we know little about her status, including when she manifested (which is quite relevant). What little we do know has nothing in common with the Andrastian circle system, though- so either you're wrong because WoG that may or may not contradict third-issue factors of DA2 or you are wrong because DA2 doesn't support your claim of the Tevinter Circle.

 

Neither does any other source, come to think of it.

On the contrary. There is nothing that suggest that the Imperial Circle does NOT largely operate identically to the Circle of Magi. We know taht the Senior Enchanters can become Magisters or Clerics in the Imperial Chantry, but from the rest of the Circle, there is little to no evidence that suggest that all other mages are free to go about their business as they see fit. We already know from Gaider, that Tevitner is "not a nice place" even for mages, so until we get solid proof that Tevinter is a mage haven, perhaps we should refrain from praising it to the sky?

[MisterJB]

Except that we have it from the writers that there is such a thing as Mage slaves. Fenris' sister jumps to mind. But I guess we are igoring these in lala land? Righto.

World of Thedas page 77 clearly states that should a mage be born to a non-mage family, the whole household is automatically elevated to Laetan status which is right below the Altus, the families that have cultivated magic for generations.

Of course, it's possible this only applies to free non-mage citizens, the Soporati. The Liberati, freed slaves, are not considered citizens even tough they're free.

[Hellion Rex]

World of Thedas page 77 clearly states that should a mage be born to a non-mage family, the whole household is automatically elevated to Laetan status which is right below the Altus, the families that have cultivated magic for generations.
Of course, it's possible this only applies to free non-mage citizens, the Soporati. The Liberati, freed slaves, are not considered citizens even tough they're free.

I believe it says that Liberati can join a Circle, no? Wouldn't their mage status supersede their former status, allowing them to become citizens?

[EmperorSahlertz]

I believe it says that Liberati can join a Circle, no? Wouldn't their mage status supersede their former status, allowing them to become citizens?

Liberati can join a Circle, but they still aren't considered citizens. Which means they will never be considered for a posistion of office.

 

But nevermind me. We are after all pretending mage slaves don't exist in Tevinter.

[MisterJB]

Wouldn't the existence of mage slaves prove that the Circle is different in Tevinter?

These slaves would serve at the homes of Magisters, rather than stay isolated in the Circle.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wouldn't the existence of mage slaves prove that the Circle is different in Tevinter?

These slaves would serve at the homes of Magisters, rather than stay isolated in the Circle.

I didn't say that the Imperial Circle was an exact carbon copy of the Circle of Magi... I said they are very similar and follow the same principles. The major difference is the status and attitude of the mages in Tevinter, but the day-to-day management and running of the Imperial Circle seems to mirror the Circle of Magi more or less perfectly.

 

So firstly claims that Tevinter doesn't have a Circle system made earlier in this thread are proven false.

Secondly claims that mages are free in Tevinter made earlier in this thread, are proven false.

 

Mages CAN be free in Tevinter, certainly.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Except that mages are actually NOT free in Tevinter, and Tevinter adheres to almost the same Circle system as the rest of Thedas.....

 

Yes actually they are... all mages in Tevinter are free and comprise the upper class of their civilization. Even Gaider said that a slave that has magic is uplifted along with their families (Very similar to the dwarven caste system) and that mage will almost certainly have a higher spot in their society than a rich mundane.

 

The Circles in Tevinter and an honor and aren't forced. Its probably like a school to train mages and once they 'graduate' they are probably assigned a master to teach them further. DA2 made several references to a master and apprentice system in Tevinter.