80 réponses à ce sujet

[NewBlue]

One of the major talking points from the devs to describe DAI as unique is: not only are you part of the Rebel Alliance, you help found it. But, maybe a dev said the idea of the restarting the Inquisition was beginning to be thrown around at that time? (But if not, brains are imperfect computers that fill gaps in our memories by making crap up. It happens to the best of us.) Still, though, it's enough of a difference to not be conforming with this silly chart.

Yes actually to my understanding (From what I heard) it was just a plan, an idea before the inquisitor came along, they weren't actually active or anything. When the big event happened. It's just that whether or not you can actually consider yourself a FOUNDER of the inquisition as apposed to just "the one that set things into motion" seems debatable to me.

 

ugh it's all so confusing lol

[December Man]

Kind of off topic, but if you placed DAII into this chart, you'd discover that it is the least cliche Bioware story of all time.

[Zatche]

Yes actually to my understanding (From what I heard) it was just a plan, an idea before the inquisitor came along, they weren't actually active or anything. When the big event happened. It's just that whether or not you can actually consider yourself a FOUNDER of the inquisition as apposed to just "the one that set things into motion" seems debatable to me.

 

ugh it's all so confusing lol

 

That does kind of sound somewhat familiar now that I think about it...

 

But, I would still consider the Inquisitor a founder in this situation. If I had two acquaintances that had a new idea for a tech startup, and they asked me to be part of it, to help lay the groundwork, to be involved in the beginning major decisions, then I don't care if it wasn't my idea. I'd still expect to be named one of the founders of the company.

[Caelorummors]

A reduction of the story is stupid. Taking things and boiling it down to "You come from a place and do a thing, then (win/lose)" doesn't matter. At the end of the day, you can reduce every story to "The protagonist wins or loses." It doesn't make something cliche. Just because the darkspawn are a "mysterious, evil force bent on destroying the world," that doesn't mean they are cliche. The story is in the details, in world building, characters and their interactions/relationships, etc. I have this idea of "cliche elitists" as pseudo-intellectuals critiquing something they don't understand, and I don't know if that is fair to them, but that is what stands out to me. Dragon Age: Origins was great because of the characters, not because of "Save the world" (reduced) story. Most stories are only seen as "not cliche" because good stories are adept at making cliches seem new.

[Travie]

Hard to make a hero journey without half of those. 

[thats1evildude]

Roughly half of those "cliches" occur in virtually every fantasy story.

[Rawgrim]

I wouldn't say its a clichè, to be honest. More like a recipie they use alot.

[Red Panda]

Probably a bit.

 

I hope the villain is worth something though.

 

Isn't the thread title a wee bit loaded though? I mean any Bioware employee waltzing into here is walking into a dark room filled with snapper turtles.

 

Just wondering, is all, no offense meant.

[BronzTrooper]

I agree.  It doesn't matter if a story is a a cliche, what matters is how the story itself plays out on the relative small-scale.

 

And yeah, the chart isn't exactly correct.  The Cerberus one particularly bugs me, but the thing about the Deep Roads doesn't exactly fit the cliche chart.  If it mentioned the elven ruins (in the Dalish origin and in the Brecilian Forest), I wouldn't mind, but the Deep Roads don't belong to an ancient civilization.  They belonged to the dwarves, and they are still around as a civilization, if a severely weakened one.  The elven ruins fight much better because one: many of those ruins that are located outside the Dales can date back to Arlathan, which was an ancient civilization that was destroyed by the Tevinter Imperium, and two: the elves in DA either have been absorbed into human society, or are wandering around Thedas without anywhere to call 'home'.  I would hardly call that a civlization, tbh.

 

Anyway, sorry for the mini-rant.  The chart should be fixed to correct these mistakes, though.

[SofaJockey]

Standard plot:

1. Bad stuff happens
2. You win through against difficult odds

Alternative:

1. No bad trigger, but you get to romance characters
2. No struggle but you get a castle to decorate

hang on, have we just invented: Sims 4: Thedas expansion pack? 

 

I'll stick to the cliched fantasy plot please.

 

 

[Ascendra]

Well im quite happy with Bioware cliches. Its what they best excel at.
If i want a non-cliche story that will make me really think i usually go to Obsidian. And even they are beginning to recycle their ideas.
Anyways different specialties and different success formuls. Im happy to be a cliched special snowflake joining or starting a badass group and saving the world as much as im happy to be an anti-hero trying to deal with my personal issues.

[Madcat 124]

Everything is a Cliche at this point. It is really hard to create a original story idea. These days it is all about how the cliches are executed. If they are done well or done poorly.

Reminds me of something Peter Weller said once. "Everything is inspired by everything" Something like how there are book inspired by songs, inspired by art, inspired by ancient cave paintings.... or something like that. 

[Maria Caliban]

Ah yes, the famous Bioware story cliche chart that shows how Bioware games from Baldur's  Gate to Mass Effect has all followed the same "Formula". Well, lets see how DA:I stacks up to this chart as of now:
 
 
(1) You hail from humble origins - Does not fit the cliche at all. From what I know, all races have a background of "importance".
 
(2) A devastating battle sends your quiet life spinning out of balance - Loosely fits the cliche. There isn't a "battle" but there is an event at the very beginning that really heats things up.

I agree with this.
 

(3) The attack leaves you alone with two companions, of magical and martial prowess - Not Enough Information thus far. We know that you come out alone as the survivor of this even and Cassandra (martial prowess) might "join" you at this point, but nothing more.

Of the mages in the group - Solas, Dorian, Vivienne - none of them are likely to have been around the conference. I think we'll get warrior + rogue companions at the beginning.
 

(4) Undaunted by the attack, you recover and are swiftly invited into an elite order that places you in a position of power or authority over the rest of humanity - Strongly fits the cliche. You become the leader of the Inquisition.

We start the Inquisition, not join it. The Inquisition doesn't start in a position of power; part of your job is to strengthen it into a political and military force.
 

(5) You discover that you must travel to four main locations in order to save the world/galaxy - Not Enough Information thus far.

Probably averted.
 

(6) With your mission well under way, your every effort is thwarted by any evil or sinister organization - Not Enough Information thus far. However, could the Elder One play this part? Red Templars? Group of rogue/evil Mages?

Several + the Big Bad, which I don't think we know of yet.
 

(7) At some point you fall asleep and there is a dream sequence - Not Enough Information thus far.
 
(8) Further along in your journeys, you discover the ruins of a sprawling ancient civilization - Not Enough Information thus far. However, perhaps there will be some ruins of the ancient Dalish clans somewhere that perhaps plays a key point in the plot.

We're going into the Fade, which people have counted as a dream sequence for previous games.

And yes, we'll be seeing ancient civilizations.

[TheGlen]

Well there's the plot twist when you discover the Iron Bull is secretly your split personality because you can't sleep so you create the Inquisition as a means to prove your worth and mess with the establishment you subconsciously loathe.  Only after you realize you've been acting as Iron Bull the entire game without knowing it and that part of your personality has laid plans to destroy all of Val Royeaux with explosives, and you have to convince your love interest to help you stop your darker side's evil plans.

 

Or later in the game when Duncan makes a surprise appearance offering you the mana potion or the health potion, telling you the blue potion will leave you in your current world, and the red one will show you a whole new world.  After you take the health potion you wake on the battlefield in London where you have shaken off Sovereign's indoctrination allowing you to finish your activation of the Crucible allowing Hackett to destroy the Reapers once and for all.

 

See?  There are a lot of ways to avoid the cliches with just a simple plot twist.

[Maria Caliban]

Roughly half of those "cliches" occur in virtually every fantasy story.

No, they don't.

Not even close to it.

[Funkjoker]

Everything is a Cliche at this point. It is really hard to create a original story idea. These days it is all about how the cliches are executed. If they are done well or done poorly.

 

Correct. That's why Japanese RPGs suck for the last decade: They're done very poorly. (Exceptions exist)

[TurretSyndrome]

The Simpons did it! The Simpsons did it!

[robertthebard]

No, they don't.

Not even close to it.

Really? I can give you one really good example, right off the top of my head: Pick up a copy of the Hobbit, then read the Lord of the Rings Trilogy, and see how that comes out.

Hey, check out the Dragon Lance series, or the Dragonriders of Pern. There are tons more that follow the same basic "chart" because that "chart" works. Isn't this exactly what you're asking for when you ask to start out as a commoner instead of a Human Noble? From nobody to somebody important, right? Better check that chart, you're writing yourself right into the cliché.

[MrMrPendragon]

I think if you try hard enough, you can make a "formula" for any game series. I don't mind the formulaic approach as long as it's interesting. It's fine if it's still "save the world" plot, because it's a fantasy rpg. It's almost always going to be about saving the world. Hell this game has dragons, the most overused creatures in medieval fantasy rpgs.

 

What I don't want however is the simple "gather an army" "find important objects to assemble" or anything like that. I don't want the whole plot laid out in front of me from the beginning. I want to investigate.

 

There should be central objectives in one chunk of the game, and as soon as you finish that, you find out there's another layer that complicates the plot. As you go further into the game you see the connections and you begin to understand what's going on. That's what I'm hoping DAI is. Not the "checklist" plot given to you at the beginning where it's "How to save the world: 7 steps (with pictures).... Step 1-6: Go to this place and get allies.  Step 7: Plot twist and the ending"

 

So overall, I'm fine if it's still "save the world" just  not "Travel to four main locations to save the world" or "Gather an army" or "Find these pieces before world ends or enemy gets said pieces". Although by now I think it's too late already.

[DiscoGhost]

just because those things happened in baldurs gate and ME doesnt automatically make them "cliche"

 

your forgetting all the other games that bioware has done. jade empire and kotor for example. 

[Feybrad]

I hope they follow the Chart pretty closely. I always liked their Formula and DA2 showed exactly what happens when they stray too far from it. It is not a bad Formula and it allows for a great Deal of Variation, while simultaneously providing a familiar Backbone, which most People like having.

 

However, there might be Differences:

- The Origins of the Inquisitor might be rather humble or indifferent, but at least the human Inquisitor doesn't really fit as a Noble.

- The Opening of the Breach will provide the "devastating Event" Part pretty closely.

- I'm pretty convinced Cass and Varric will be your first Companions, Warrior and Rogue instead of Warrior and Mage.

- You will found an Elite Organization, but that Organization in itself is obviously not as influential as the Trope implies.

- So far, we do not know the four Locations, but this might be averted.

- We will meet plenty of siniter Organizations. The Tevinter Venatori stand out at this Point.

- The Fade is given.

- Ruins will be visited. The deep Roads AND the Dales are confirmed.

[9TailsFox]

[Akernis]

I am not sure people know what the word cliche even means. A cliche is inherently a bad thing.

 

Cliche (1): - "A trite, stereotyped expression; a sentence, phrase or device, usually expressing a popular or common thought or idea, that has lost originality, ingenuity and impact by long overuse.  

 

Cliche (2): - "A trite or hackneyed plot, character development, use of colour, musical expression or similar."

 

Cliche (3): - "Anything that has become trite and commonplace through overuse."

 

Now what we are talking about is patterns, or tropes. They aren't cliches if they are fun and entertaining.

Now would probably be a good idea to go and read up on tropes, would save me hours of talking, these two especially:

http://tvtropes.org/....php/Main/Trope

http://tvtropes.org/.../TropesAreTools

If they were cliches they would be fundamentally detrimental to the game and would make the game better if removed. Which is not really the case. Bioware uses some variance of this formula because it works very well for an RPG (or almost any game, I would imagine). 

It is not as if they never vary from it either, but each of these patterns has a point to why it exists.

For instance:

- Hailing from humble origins is a good way to establish the story to the player through familiarity.

- Starting with a battle or catastrophe is a expedient and easy-to-understand way of getting the plot started and keep the interest of players.

- Having a martial and a magical companion from the beginning makes sense game-play-wise, as it ensures the player is equipped to tackle most problem.

- Joining a special organisation is an good way to allow the player the freedom and power they need to do all these strange, dangerous, and wondrous things that will happen throughout the story.

- Having to reach four different areas creates enough missions to give the player room to decide for themselves and play how they want, but not so many as to confuse or overwhelm (note I am fully aware that most, if not all, of us would be able to handle it, but this makes it more manageable for more casual players.)

- Being opposed by an evil or sinister organisation can create conflict, excitement, mystery, etc. i.d. many of the things that drives a good story.

- Falling asleep and having a dream scene. Okay, i am not sure why this one is so used, I don't mind it but I am not sure what purpose it serves.

- Finding ancient ruins or signs of an ancient civilization is an intriguing plot point for many, and one I know I have always personally enjoyed. This one may be more up to personal taste though.

 

Except for the last two all are very effective story-devices (and I am almost sure each is covered by a trope describing its effect in greater detail) and serve to guide and enhance the plot, not as a sign of poor writing. Besides, originality died over two thousand years ago, the best way to make good stories is to use existing elements that people know and use them in interesting and exciting ways.   

[Adhin]

I was gonna be all saying stuff, and be all 'points! hah, and... Well, Akernis went and said pretty much all of it, and then some.

 

I will say outside of just misusing the word cliche, that charts kinda stupid. Half of it feels shoehorned in to try and make some fake point. Apparently going to more then 4 places is the same as 4 places cause 2 of them where 'split up' into 4 zones. If that's the case Baldur's Gate city counts for like 9 'places' immediately crapping all over that idea.

 

Also, as has been said, Leliana and Cassandra (or at least Cassandra) was thinking of, and preparing to start up another Inquisition if things went anymore south. Apparently they didn't as what we're at is supposed to be a peace talk to try and stop all the fighting. When the whole fade decides to let one rip over the lot of us it all spirals wildly out of control again, and since your the only survivor with the only ability to close the rifts she puts you in charge and you all start up the whole thing.

 

Basically, it's all Cassandras idea - but your one of the founders and ultimately the Lead on it all since your the magical green snowflake. So, eventually we end up with a lot of power, but as has been stated we don't 'start' with it. We're not some ancient order that is above the law. We ultimately have to get other powers to work with us and build up said forces.

 

I for one, am seriously looking forward to that, all of the that stuffs.

[bEVEsthda]

I suppose the moderators 'suggested' I'd rephrase my opinion of the cliche chart. And I also suppose I have to, since my previous post was deleted.

 

Happily, I see that Akernis has already done most of that work for me, and better than I could have done it, I think.

 

Basically, I think people should understand that there are common sets of underlying forms, which all stories follows. The fact that they do so, is not an indication that they're bad. On the contrary, these forms are what the respective audiences enjoy, and what is effective in conveying what the author want. What makes stories work. Likewise, a deviation from forms (which DA2 certainly is not) is not something positive in itself. If it establishes a relevant, successful, new variation, then it's good. It's not necessarily better, not at all, but it's innovative.

 

In this case, I see it as (originally) a pretty cheap trick, to project ridicule on Bioware stories. I believe that was the real agenda from the start, when that infamous chart was created. I believe so, particularly because of the choice of descriptions and use of the word "cliché":

 

It's also too easy, to use semantics to twist and contrive a fit, even when that is pretty blurry.