80 réponses à ce sujet

[Burricho]

I hardly see how the 'travel to four main places' thing is relevant. In da2 almost all the main quest was in kirkwall. In DAI there are ten whole, completely different zones.

[Adhin]

It pretty much only fit the original KotOR, and only for the middle section. No other game BioWare has made, since then, has followed that exactly. Hell they even say Jade Empire is in that but it's listed a 'you travel the land'. Not you travel to these 4 exact places. It's ultimately a troll chart for the sake of arguing someones dislike of stuff.

[Maria Caliban]

Really? I can give you one really good example...

I can give you one really good example of the hero's father being the villain. Yet I wouldn't claim that trope appears in virtually every science fiction movie.

If you want to disagree with me, you need to show that half these cliches appear in MOST fantasy stories. Thankfully, Lord of the Rings and Dungeons and Dragons aren't most fantasy stories.

[TheChris92]

So far it's got the "the world is about to explode" premise covered, because from producer Cameron Lee's perspectice, the "failings of DA2" was that didn't have quite enough of the usual common BioWare tropes, like the "world is about to explode" and Epic HERO'S JOURNEY, as opposed to just being a rushed out cash-in with more loading times than a truck full of seaturtles.

[uzivatel]

I think at this point BioWare cant divert from the chart. They are too bound with what people came to expect from them over the years.

[Akernis]

I think at this point BioWare cant divert from the chart. They are too bound with what people came to expect from them over the years.

Well, they proved they could with DA2, and ME2, and ME3, and TOR. None of which used more than roughly one or two of those.

And even so, several games that has nothing to do with Bioware uses those some of those patterns. The 'some evil force trying to stop you' is a particularly bad example, as that includes practically half of all games in existence. Fighting against evil is pretty commonplace, that does not make it a bad story element.  

[Darth Death]

If I'd no choice in the matter, and I'd to follow a strict, predefined path, then the effects of cliche would be overbearing. The role playing elements is what moderates my dislike for seamless cliche storytelling.  

[cronshaw]

Yeah, but this is about BioWare specific cliches.

 

If they did a cliche non-specific to BioWare it wouldn't be a BioWare story cliche.

 

Except most of these aren't BioWare specific.

The story of Jesus fits about half of those, maybe more if I really wanted to get creative.

[HellaciousHutch]

To be honest, I don't see why people get...upset at BioWare using similar elements throughout all the games they develop, because, not game company is NOT guilty of the same. No storytelling medium is completely guilt-free either. 

 

As long as the game is good, the characters, world, and story enjoyable, and the gameplay engaging, I couldn't care less if BioWare carries over elements (cliches) from game to game. Either should anyone else, really.

[uzivatel]

Well, they proved they could with DA2, and ME2, and ME3, and TOR. None of which used more than roughly one or two of those.

And even so, several games that has nothing to do with Bioware uses those some of those patterns. The 'some evil force trying to stop you' is a particularly bad example, as that includes practically half of all games in existence. Fighting against evil is pretty commonplace, that does not make it a bad story element.  

 

DA2, ME3 and TOR are apparently worse than cancer, just ask the internet.

 

ME2 follows the chart very well.

[Tootles FTW]

What plot ever, ever starts with "something good happens and the PC has to fight with no one in particular"?

[uzivatel]

What plot ever, ever starts with "something good happens and the PC has to fight with no one in particular"?

 

Planescape Torment? well, at least that is one way to put it...

[Kantr]

You cant get away from cliché's and tropes. It's how you use them that is important.

[Deflagratio]

You can fit 2/3 of literature and 8/9's of cinema in that chart too. You'd do just as well to draw a parabolic graph and complain about stories following an arc. Some don't have an arc, we call those bad stories.

[MarchWaltz]

Who cares. It's going to be an immersive and engaging story, well worth the price of admission.

[CronoDragoon]

Roughly half of those "cliches" occur in virtually every fantasy story.

 

In almost every fantasy RPG, I agree. Some of them are gameplay-centered tropes, though (such as a magical and physical companion), which makes the comparison a bit tougher when expanding the scope beyond games.

 

I think the larger point, though, is that 1) stories can always reduced to vague archetypical ingredients if the desire is there, and 2) the prevalance of such ingredients can either be seen as bad (if they have become cliche) or proof that they are still effective storytelling devices.

 

Like, I'm looking at this list, and most of the stuff in there is stuff I still want in a BioWare game.

 

Humble origins reflect me as a player.

A sudden violent event at the beginning is the game equivalent of a hook in a book, and follows the recommendation of many writers that you want to "start as close to the important events as you can."

Being a part of an important organization gives you a place in the world, authority to make important decisions within it, expands the lore of the game world, gives you the opportunity to meet characters, allows for a tangible representation of the PC's increased importance as they become stronger by rising through the ranks, etc.

Focusing on several main situations instead of scattered quests tightens the storytelling and allows the creator to explore major conflicts within the setting in an organic, intuitive way.

 

You get the idea. Tropes are unavoidable. Even a series like A Song of Ice and Fire follows patterns; a series specifically devoted to undermining and subverting common fantasy tropes.

[Adhin]

@uzivatel: Hahaha! ahh I loved, PST. One of the best out there. Though I don't think taking up on a morg-slab with no memories necessarily a 'good things happened!'. And while immediately your not attacked by an unknown source, fairly early in the story you 'do' get attacked by shades... repeatedly, and they have been hunting you.

 

Ultimately I think every game needs some kind of a conflict. If you don't have 'something' to do, something to focus on, your not gonna have much of a game. You need something to struggle against. Sure it could be like the 'sims' and your struggle is every day nonsense but that would make a pretty garbage fantasy game. You need something, something to fight against, something to fix, something to focus your attention and give you a reason to do what your doing. And Mystery, on top of a conflict, is a great way to keep things interesting and keep people motivated to complete.

 

I guess this all comes down to the OP original post - Does DAI fit in with some troll cliche chart? Nope, cause they're not cliche, they're tropes being used for good reason. And if the question ultimately is how much? Probably most of them, and thank jebus for that! I like my games being fun and interesting.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Yes actually to my understanding (From what I heard) it was just a plan, an idea before the inquisitor came along, they weren't actually active or anything. When the big event happened. It's just that whether or not you can actually consider yourself a FOUNDER of the inquisition as apposed to just "the one that set things into motion" seems debatable to me.

 

ugh it's all so confusing lol

 

Actually a dev said recently you don't start out as the leader, you work your way up. It was in response to someone asking why your character has the ability/cred/ whatever to jump in and lead an inquisition.

[Dabrikishaw]

Is there any need to be so defensive guys?

[CronoDragoon]

Actually a dev said recently you don't start out as the leader, you work your way up. It was in response to someone asking why your character has the ability/cred/ whatever to jump in and lead an inquisition.

 

Really? That's interesting. I'll have to look for it. Tweet or something?

[Adhin]

QnA, E3 interviews n stuff.

[Mecha Elf]

Rather have bioware do there cliches in an amazing way than have a story like dragon age 2s that had to real meaty plot.

[Adhin]

You can't do a cliche in an 'amazing way'. It's a Cliche. That's like saying you want a giant pile of **** to be amazing... it can't be, it's literally a streaming pile of poop. Your gonna have to get a real twisted fetish before your perspective changes enough for that to happen.

 

(point is, they're not cliche's... there tropes)

[SwobyJ]

From what I've gathered and believe so far, Dragon Age: Inquisition won't subvert, but instead evolve and bring progress to the 'Bioware cliche'.

 

I think they want to return to the greatest hits of their past games, while utterly revolutionizing them for the current gen (of not just consoles, but gamers outright).

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I agree with Adhin. Its actually tropes that Bioware is going with, and it sounds like they just want to implement them very well and with a unique and personal flavor, even compared to the previous best implementations.

 

 

The clearest example off the top of my head is how you don't just join a great order in some capacity (willing or unwilling, peaceful or violent), but instead you will be founding the great order yourself (which does limit your character's individual freedom in some ways, but opens up many more big possibilities for them at the same time).

 

EDIT: To remark on the posts above, even if the Inquisitor doesn't directly and literally found the Inquisition, he'll still be the significant leader of its current iteration, and that is something quite different from previous Bioware games. Even ME2, ME3, and DAO were not quite like this. They still focused on being the one that commands the bunch, with most of the effect of choices still ending up being incidental and unplanned by the protagonist.

[KC_Prototype]

A lot of this is just too general and I find it not very much cliche.