216 réponses à ce sujet

[wright1978]

One of the thoughts that always occurred to me was what if the Catalyst was trolling. Like what if there was an actual button to press or the Crucible just needed to finish installing the right driver (or what were the options on the other side of the chamber?), and the Catalyst was trying to convince Shepard to sabotage the project.
 
I would like to think someone telling me to shoot a fuel line would raise an eyebrow or two.

Indeed, when faced by the antagonist, who offers 3 solutions all of which require the protagonist to commit suicide such notions are completely reasonable.

[KaiserShep]

Destroy does not require the protagonist to commit suicide. The Catalyst makes a passing reference to being "partly synthetic", but that kind of rings hollow if Shepard survives the ordeal. Synthesis and Control are the only ones that are explicit in Shepard's fate.

[wright1978]

Destroy does not require the protagonist to commit suicide. The Catalyst makes a passing reference to being "partly synthetic", but that kind of rings hollow if Shepard survives the ordeal. Synthesis and Control are the only ones that are explicit in Shepard's fate.

Even if you take cheap non expanded breath sequence at its most optimistic blowing up a tube at point blank range was never going to leave Shep healthy or able.

[dreamgazer]

Even if you take cheap non expanded breath sequence at its most optimistic blowing up a tube at point blank range was never going to leave Shep healthy or able.

Are you forgetting about all the upgrades and heavy bone, skin, and muscle weaves Shepard has after Lazarus?

Shepard may have been Not Afraid To Die in the situation (nope, not required to be a Death Seeker), but there's plenty that could feasibly keep him going. 

[themikefest]

And what if you don't get any of the upgrades in ME2 for Shepard?

[dreamgazer]

And what if you don't get any of the upgrades in ME2 for Shepard?

 

Shepard's upgraded with "implants" through Lazarus anyway, and I'm pretty sure the narrative assumes you opted for those combat/defense improvements under any circumstances.  That's not much of a role-playing aspect to the story; it's on the same level as advancing your skill tree. 

[Iakus]

Shepard's upgraded with "implants" through Lazarus anyway, and I'm pretty sure the narrative assumes you opted for those combat/defense improvements under any circumstances.  That's not much of a role-playing aspect to the story; it's on the same level as advancing your skill tree. 

 

Shepard's implants make it less likely Shep would survive, not more.

 

"The Crucible will not discriminate.  All synthetic life will be targetted.  Even you are partly synthetic"

 

So, yeah, even if Shep managed to survive a massive explosion to the face (already lolworthy) Shep faces the very real possibility of life-sustaining cybernetic implants being damaged or destroyed by Red Space Magic.

[dreamgazer]

Shepard's implants make it less likely Shep would survive, not more.

 

"The Crucible will not discriminate.  All synthetic life will be targetted.  Even you are partly synthetic"

 

So, yeah, even if Shep managed to survive a massive explosion to the face (already lolworthy) Shep faces the very real possibility of life-sustaining cybernetic implants being damaged or destroyed by Red Space Magic.

 

Not that LOLworthy, actually, considering the nature of the upgrades, shields, and everything else the universe introduces.  And remember, Shepard and the gang survived one of Sovereign's legs directly to the face, too, which roundly wiped out the entire citadel chamber in ME1 and should have killed everything in its path.

 

And s/he did survive the overload wave (is Overload "magic" too, iakus?), so the Catalyst was clearly inaccurate about his assessment of the technology, especially that within Shep's body (and everyone else with cybernetic implants, such as Garrus).

[Iakus]

Not that LOLworthy, actually, considering the nature of the upgrades, shields, and everything else the universe introduces.  

 

And s/he did survive the overload wave (is Overload "magic" too, iakus?), so the Catalyst was clearly inaccurate about his assessment of the technology, especially that within Shep's body (and everyone else with cybernetic implants, such as Garrus).

Shields don't protect you from fire.  Or energy attacks of any kind, really.

 

And the "overload" wave is space magic, and worse, arbitrary space magic.  if it leaves cyborgs alone, why don't Reapers survive?

[KaiserShep]

Being hit by a reaper beam should kill Shepard too, but here we are. If we're going to try to use logic and probabilities when talking about the ending scenes, we're going to waste the energy required to tap our keyboards.

 

So, yeah, even if Shep managed to survive a massive explosion to the face (already lolworthy) Shep faces the very real possibility of life-sustaining cybernetic implants being damaged or destroyed by Red Space Magic.

 

And yet in the high-EMS ending, they aren't. If they were, there'd be no breath scene. What's the point? Author trolling? I imagine some here are inclined to believe this, but I'm disinclined to take that idea seriously. The Normandy is totally synthetic, yet it flies away. The fleets in space still seem to function. We don't see biotics keeling over in pain over implants bursting. Garrus seems to be OK, even with his cybernetic implants, and judging by the damage he took on Omega, they were likely extensive.

 

If we really want to break down the mechanics of the beam to the smallest detail and try to apply this logic that everything synthetic should be eradicated, everyone who is wearing synthetic fabrics or armor should be rendered naked as the beam travels over them. I mean, what is "synthetic" in this context anyway? Polyester underwear? Gone! Anyone with a pacemaker is screwed. Hearing aids? Welcome to deafsville, buddy.

[dreamgazer]

Shields don't protect you from fire.  Or energy attacks of any kind, really.

 

And the "overload" wave is space magic, and worse, arbitrary space magic.  if it leaves cyborgs alone, why don't Reapers survive?

 

The debris gets blocked by the shields, and the momentary uptick in heat gets handled by the numerous upgrades through Lazarus.  Shep's not 100%, but clearly alive.  If OrganicShep can come away from Sovereign's debris crashing full-on (conveniently not visualized, mind you) with nothing but a mild limp and smirk, then this is certainly feasible (and explainable). 

 

Because the device was designed to target the Reapers from the very beginning, as mentioned by Liara. The thoroughness of the Crucible determines how closely the targeting can be refined, and even that has its limitations when utilizing the relays.   Still not "space magic", since that tech is actually established in the narrative.

[Iakus]

Being hit by a reaper beam should kill Shepard too, but here we are. If we're going to try to use logic and probabilities when talking about the ending scenes, we're going to waste the energy required to tap our keyboards.

 

 

And yet in the high-EMS ending, they aren't. If they were, there'd be no breath scene. What's the point? Author trolling? I imagine some here are inclined to believe this, but I'm disinclined to take that idea seriously. The Normandy is totally synthetic, yet it flies away. The fleets in space still seem to function. We don't see biotics keeling over in pain over implants bursting. Garrus seems to be OK, even with his cybernetic implants, and judging by the damage he took on Omega, they were likely extensive.

 

If we really want to break down the mechanics of the beam to the smallest detail and try to apply this logic that everything synthetic should be eradicated, everyone who is wearing synthetic fabrics or armor should be rendered naked as the beam travels over them. I mean, what is "synthetic" in this context anyway? Polyester underwear? Gone! Anyone with a pacemaker is screwed. Hearing aids? Welcome to deafsville, buddy.

 

Don't forget biotics.  They should be having a very bad day too.  They have implants built into their brains and nervous systems.

 

At any rate, you see just how nonsensical the Crucible is.  Creating an arbitrary punishment just makes it even more wtf-worthy 

[dreamgazer]

Don't forget biotics.  They should be having a very bad day too.  They have implants built into their brains and nervous systems.

 

At any rate, you see just how nonsensical the Crucible is.  Creating an arbitrary punishment just makes it even more wtf-worthy

 

Not really, since biotic implants and life-sustaining cybernetics aren't remotely the same as synthetic life signatures (especially those that "look" like Reapers, both in hardware and software). 

[Iakus]

The debris gets blocked by the shields, and the momentary uptick in heat gets handled by the numerous upgrades through Lazarus.  Shep's not 100%, but clearly alive.  If OrganicShep can come away from Sovereign's debris crashing full-on (conveniently  not visualized, mind you) with nothing but a mild limp and smirk, then this is certainly feasible (and explainable). 

 

Because the device was designed to target the Reapers from the very beginning, as mentioned by Liara. The thoroughness of the Crucible determines how closely the targeting can be refined, and even that has its limitations when utilizing the relays.   Still not "space magic", since that tech is actually established in the narrative.

 

Shepard has no shields, remember. 

 

What upgrades through Lazarus? When did he become fireproof?  I seem to recall those vorcha flamers in ME2 being a serious pita.

 

And yes, we never see the chunk of Sovereign land on Shepard.  We do, however, see Shepard engulfed in a fireball.

 

Liara is actually proven to be wrong about a great many things in ME3.  And the targetting is still garbage no matter how refined the Crucible gets.  Though I guess it gets points for being able to target things that aren't even in the same solar system as a relay (nope, not magic at all!   )

 

The tech was absolutely not established at all in the game.  Until Starbrat shows up, nobody knew how the Crucible is supposed to work (even the people building it!  LOL!).  It could have been a gun that fires thresher maws for all we knew.

[Iakus]

Not really, since biotic implants and life-sustaining cybernetics aren't remotely the same as synthetic life signatures (especially those that "look" like Reapers, both in hardware and software). 

Tell that to Kaidan.  He doesn't upgrade from his L2 implants out of fear of possible brain damage.

[dreamgazer]

Shepard has no shields, remember. 
 
What upgrades through Lazarus? When did he become fireproof?  I seem to recall those vorcha flamers in ME2 being a serious pita.

After all the upgrades in ME2, you have to stand in front of the flamers' direct blast for a very long time before it kills you. This is one brief blast that isn't a stream of weaponized concentrated fire. Not the same thing. People survive explosions, even fireballs, in the modern day.
 

And yes, we never see the chunk of Sovereign land on Shepard.  We do, however, see Shepard engulfed in a fireball.

Yeah, we just see the entire chamber leveled, and the survival of three organic bodies simply hand-waved by the camera turning away.
 

Liara is actually proven to be wrong about a great many things in ME3.

She wasn't wrong about the Crucible targeting the Reapers, whatsoever. That's observable.
 

And the targetting is still garbage no matter how refined the Crucible gets.  Though I guess it gets points for being able to target things that aren't even in the same solar system as a relay (nope, not magic at all! )

Elaborate.
 

The tech was absolutely not established at all in the game.  Until Starbrat shows up, nobody knew how the Crucible is supposed to work (even the people building it!  LOL!).  It could have been a gun that fires thresher maws for all we knew.

Right, so long as you ignore the "destructive" and the "Reapers" part of their conversation. And yes, both the Destroy and Control functions of the Crucible are, in fact, hinged on executable tech in the lore.

Not knowing precisely what it'll do =/= Not having a clue what it'll do.
 

Tell that to Kaidan. He doesn't upgrade from his L2 implants out of fear of possible brain damage.

Irrelevant to my comment.

[Iakus]

After all the upgrades in ME2, you have to stand in front of the flamers' direct blast for a very long time before it kills you. This is one brief blast that isn't a stream of weaponized concentrated fire. Not the same thing.
 

Yeah, we just see the entire chamber leveled, and the survival of three organic bodies simply hand-waved by the camera turning away.
 

She wasn't wrong about the Crucible targeting the Reapers, whatsoever. That's observable.
 

Elaborate.
 

Right, so long as you ignore the "destructive" and the "Reapers" part of their conversation. And yes, both the Destroy and Control functions of the Crucible are, in fact, hinged on executable tech in the lore.

Not knowing precisely what it'll do =/= Not having a clue what it'll do.
 

Irrelevant to my comment.

No, it's only a fireball big enough to completely engulf Shepard and leave him lying in a pile of debris.  That's much better.

 

Easier to believe than seeing Shepard walk into a fireball.  And survive a point black wave of space magic that should have shut down him "partly synthetic" bits

 

Yes she was wrong.  It doesn't target Reapers.  It targets "synthetic life".  Of which Reapers happen to be.  Of course, cyborgs are also potential synthetic life, but we won't get into that because Shepard is the only one at risk because

 

Look sat the galaxy map.  There is Reaper activity in systems without mass relays.  The Normandy can even visit them.  You gotta use fuel and travel to those worlds via FTL.  But the Crucible managed to reach them too (at presumably FTL speeds as well) , because

 

And the only details given about the Crucible are 1) it uses a lot of energy and 2) therefore, it must be a weapon.  What it does is never, ever addresed.  TIM claims he can use it to control the Reapers, but never says how or how he even knows this.

 

Cybernetics in place where damage hurt brain.  Relevant.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

So does the crucible destroy the synthetic cord in tires? That's essentially what the Lazarus project was doing for Shepard. It rebuilt Shepard using technology. Biological tissue eventually grew around the technology making that essentially obsolete except for those scars that never healed for the Paragon/Renegade "Terminator" look - you could keep them or they could heal for 50,000 CR. Your choice. They were cosmetic. If you wanted to look like a demon you could. Everyone loved you anyway.

 

In the ORIGINAL ENDING, the Crucible destroyed all synthetic life, and NOT anything that was synthetic. In the EC, "you will lose some technology upon which you rely, but no more than you have already lost" for high EMS. I do not see this as diminishing Shepard's chances of survival or that Shepard's synthetic parts would be targeted. The line "even you are partly synthetic" was said to talk you out of using the destroy option.

 

And yes, scorched earth is preferable to total extinction. I'm a pragmatist, not an idealist. The choice would not be made lightly. Still, the Geth never made it past Rannoch due to their failure to convince me in their propaganda machine. "Come on, Quarians in their suits? Legion, I'm not buying your BS."

[KaiserShep]

Shepard: Wasn't that footage from the past? Why are the quarians masked?

 

Legion: Creator resources reached minimum operating capacity, necessitating utilization of recycled models.

 

Shepard: Wait, what creators are we talking about here?

 

Legion:               .....No data available.

[dreamgazer]

No, it's only a fireball big enough to completely engulf Shepard and leave him lying in a pile of debris.  That's much better.

It is, actually, since it's the difference between direct and indirect damage. People survive explosions and fireballs in the present day, without Lazarus' upgrades.
 

Easier to believe than seeing Shepard walk into a fireball.  And survive a point black wave of space magic that should have shut down him "partly synthetic" bits

Not by much, considering the degree and trajectory of the debris' damage and Shepard's purely-organic nature at that point.
 

Yes she was wrong.  It doesn't target Reapers.  It targets "synthetic life".  Of which Reapers happen to be.  Of course, cyborgs are also potential synthetic life, but we won't get into that because Shepard is the only one at risk because

Targeted =/= Eliminated. We have observable proof that the Crucible eliminates the Reapers (whom are complex hybrids of organics and synthetics) and those that "look" like Reapers. We also have proof that other forms of technology, other lives that rely on cybernetic processes, survived without a hitch.
 

Look sat the galaxy map.  There is Reaper activity in systems without mass relays.  The Normandy can even visit them.  You gotta use fuel and travel to those worlds via FTL.  But the Crucible managed to reach them too (at presumably FTL speeds as well) , because

Because that's the way the technology of the Crucible works? Having a wide dispersal range off the relays doesn't immediately default it to magic.
 

And the only details given about the Crucible are 1) it uses a lot of energy and therefore, it must be a weapon.  What it does is never, ever addresed.  TIM claims he can use it to control the Reapers, but never says how or how he even knows this.

"Wipe out the Reapers" is the very first thing communicated about the Crucible, which is consistently elaborated on (and, yes, feared in case there are drawbacks).

How long was Eva Core at the archives, and how long had TIM been researching Reaper tech?
 

Cybernetics in place where damage hurt brain.  Relevant.

Not confused with synthetic life in any form. Not targeted. Not relevant.

[LiL Reapur]

My head hurts..........All i know is that i hated the endings at first, but now idgaf ME4 is coming out....

[Iakus]

It is, actually, since it's the difference between direct and indirect damage. People survive explosions and fireballs in the present day, without Lazarus' upgrades.
 

Not by much, considering the degree and trajectory of the debris' damage and Shepard's purely-organic nature at that point.
 

Targeted =/= Eliminated. We have observable proof that the Crucible eliminates the Reapers (whom are complex hybrids of organics and synthetics) and those that "look" like Reapers. We also have proof that other forms of technology, other lives that rely on cybernetic processes, survived without a hitch.
 

Because that's the way the technology of the Crucible works? Having a wide dispersal range off the relays doesn't immediately default it to magic.
 

"Wipe out the Reapers" is the very first thing communicated about the Crucible, which is consistently elaborated on (and, yes, feared in case there are drawbacks).

How long was Eva Core at the archives, and how long had TIM been researching Reaper tech?
 

Not confused with synthetic life in any form. Not targeted. Not relevant.

Probably easier to survive a near miss from being squashed than walking into a fireball.

 

Wait, cyborgs aren't complex hybrids of organic and synthetic?

 

So the Crucible disperses its energy at ftl speeds?  Speeds so great even a Reaper can't outrun it?  Without becoming attenuated to the point of inneftiveness?  And this isn't space magic how?

 

But wipe out the Reapers how?  Answer:  "Derp, I dunno"  They couldn't even tell us how many thresher maws would fit in the magazine!

 

Eva arrived at the Mars archives a week before the Reapers invaded Earth.

 

Reapers are cybernetic organisms.  As are cyborgs.  Including those with biotic implants.  How does the Crucible discriminate between them if it doesn't discriminate?  For that matter, how can it tell a VI from an AI from a cyborg?

[Iakus]

My head hurts..........All i know is that i hated the endings at first, but now idgaf ME4 is coming out....

I have to gaf because were ME3 went could have repercussions on where MENext is going.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Shepard's implants make it less likely Shep would survive, not more.

 

"The Crucible will not discriminate.  All synthetic life will be targetted.  Even you are partly synthetic"

 

So, yeah, even if Shep managed to survive a massive explosion to the face (already lolworthy) Shep faces the very real possibility of life-sustaining cybernetic implants being damaged or destroyed by Red Space Magic.

 

This is contrasted and contradicted by the Catalyst's description of Synthesis.

 

Your argument is invalid.

 

From an old argument:

 

Firstly, I don't think the Catalyst is capable of withholding information. That's why it mentions destroy. But I do think it is capable of using deceit. I do think it is overtly trying to portray destroy in a negative light to entice Shepard to choose a solution more on its own preference. An example of this is when it uses multiple definitions for the term 'synthetic'.

First, it implies that all synthetic creations, from the Geth, EDI, to things like synthetic flesh, organs, VI's, etc, will be affected. It implies this when it says "even you are partly synthetic"

Going by the definition that I used of synthetic flesh and organs, this is true. I am partly synthetic.

Going by the definition of synthetic as in synthetic sapient intelligence, or synthetic life, this is not true. I am not synthetic in this manner. There is no AI in me at all. I am a human being, with a few synthetic organs, no, there is no part of me that would qualify as synthetic sapient life. I am not 'partly synthetic' in that regard.

Then when it defines synthesis and who will be affected, it mentions that synthetics will be merged with organics... which we already can do. I'm an example. I'm standing right in front of the Catalyst.

Yet the Catalyst uses the definition of synthetic as in synthetic sapient intelligence. It makes it clear that it is talking about things like EDI and the Geth.

And it says how necessary and vital they, so much so that I supposedly can't imagine my life without them.

Except I can. EDI is one synthetic. One. And she's only a year or two old. The Geth meanwhile have existed for over 300 years.... the majority of which they have been isolated from the rest of the galaxy. In fact, it was only just recently that I talked them into joining the war effort. Also, the council expressly forbids the creation of AI's and imposes very harsh penalties for doing so. These laws are effective enough that synthetic sapient intelligence is quite rare and not an influencing factor at all in everyday life. So why does the Catalyst believe that they are now essential to everyday life?

But the point is, yes I can envision my life without synthetic intelligence. I've literally been doing it for almost all of my life. As has most of the galaxy for centuries.

This assertion is false.... unless my prosthetic gall bladder is going to go on a crusade against my pancreas.

[dreamgazer]

Probably easier to survive a near miss from being squashed than walking into a fireball.

And there's enough time for a "near-miss" how? Shepard says "Run!" with the humongous thing practically on top of him/her, which would lead to less-survivable trauma. But nope, hand-waved by the camera turning away.
 

Wait, cyborgs aren't complex hybrids of organic and synthetic?

Yes, they are, but the Reapers are a distinct hybrid of organic and synthetic that are affected regardless of the choice made by Shepard. They are the target; it's up to the Crucible to refine the blowback based on its capabilities.
 

So the Crucible disperses its energy at ftl speeds?  Speeds so great even a Reaper can't outrun it?  Without becoming attenuated to the point of inneftiveness?  And this isn't space magic how?

Because it still hinges on technological capabilities in the universe. It stretches plausibility, I won't deny that, but it's no more "magical" than things studded throughout the entire series.
 

But wipe out the Reapers how?  Answer:  "Derp, I dunno"  They couldn't even tell us how many thresher maws would fit in the magazine!

Yes, iakus. It was possible that the device was a gun that fires thresher maws, despite all the evidence pointing to its functionality as, at least, a destructive energy source that uses the relays and was specifically designed by the Protheans (and others) to wipe out the Reapers.
 

Eva arrived at the Mars archives a week before the Reapers invaded Earth.

Exactly.
 

Reapers are cybernetic organisms.  As are cyborgs.  Including those with biotic implants.  How does the Crucible discriminate between them if it doesn't discriminate?  For that matter, how can it tell a VI from an AI from a cyborg?

The same way we can tell today if a wireless internet signal is open, requires a passkey, or is merely a passive mobile device.