216 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

And there's enough time for a "near-miss" how? Shepard says "Run!" with the humongous thing practically on top of him/her, which would lead to less-survivable trauma. But nope, hand-waved by the camera turning away.
 

Yes, they are, but the Reapers are a distinct hybrid of organic and synthetic that are affected regardless of the choice made by Shepard. They are the target; it's up to the Crucible to refine the blowback based on its capabilities.
 

Because it still hinges on technological capabilities in the universe. It stretches plausibility, I won't deny that, but it's no more "magical" than things studded throughout the entire series.
 

Yes, iakus. It was possible that the device was a gun that fires thresher maws, despite all the evidence pointing to its functionality as, at least, a destructive energy source that uses the relays and was specifically designed by the Protheans (and others) to wipe out the Reapers.
 

Exactly.
 

The same way we can tell today if a wireless internet signal is open, requires a passkey, or is merely a passive mobile device.

Camera turning away and the next scene showing the piece that came through was a lot smaller than the Council chamber.

 

Once again: "The Crucible will not discriminate.  All synthetic life will be targetted.  Even you are partly synthetic"

 

Nothing in the universe at that point was capable of that technological leap.  The only instantaneous travel was between two mass relays.  Until the Polychromatic Beams o' Magic came along that is.  It's a feat that affects the entire galaxy.

 

There was no evidence that it used the relays until Vendetta said the Citadel was the Catalyst.  Before it's always "It's powerful, it uses a lot of energy.  It can make an Earth-shattering KABOOM!  So it must be a weapon!  No, we don't have a clue how to use it though."  Pretty funny given how the Crucible's dimensions allowed it to perfectly dock with the Citadel and no one building the thing caught on though.

 

How can one filter one out and leave the others alone, exactly?

[AlanC9]

So the Crucible disperses its energy at ftl speeds?  Speeds so great even a Reaper can't outrun it?  Without becoming attenuated to the point of inneftiveness?  And this isn't space magic how?

Isn't transmitting stuff at FTL kind of what the relays, you know, do?

[AlanC9]

There was no evidence that it used the relays until Vendetta said the Citadel was the Catalyst.  Before it's always "It's powerful, it uses a lot of energy.  It can make an Earth-shattering KABOOM!  So it must be a weapon!  No, we don't have a clue how to use it though."  Pretty funny given how the Crucible's dimensions allowed it to perfectly dock with the Citadel and no one building the thing caught on though.

That's not strictly true. Codex:
 

The Mars Archives describe a superweapon that the Alliance has named the Crucible, which exploits the technology of mass effect relays. Beyond the basic principles, however, researchers know little about how the weapon actually works.

One popular theory suggests that since relays can transfer matter and energy across the galaxy with little regard for distance, it may be possible to create a weapon for which range is barely a factor. Duplicating the advanced science used to build the relays has proven difficult, however. If the Crucible were completed, the challenge would become tuning the weapon to kill a Reaper halfway across the galaxy without inflicting unthinkable levels of collateral damage.

You're getting sloppier lately.

 

Edit: I'm liking your post for the Marvin the Martian quote, though.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

You're getting sloppier lately.

 

People have been calling him out a lot more on the irrationality of his views lately.

[KaiserShep]

Mass Effect 3's a hell of a drug.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The problem wasn't necessarily the Reapers. It was the Reaper Invasion. Once that happened the story was broken without space magic. There was no way to defeat them conventionally. Three years wasn't long enough to build 60,000 dreadnoughts. And if we had, then they simply land, and how do we take them out? Oh probably a few hundred thousand frigates that can fly in atmosphere. There wasn't enough time to prepare. So... Crucible + space magic for a victory. Otherwise it was a lost war.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The problem wasn't necessarily the Reapers. It was the Reaper Invasion. Once that happened the story was broken without space magic. There was no way to defeat them conventionally. Three years wasn't long enough to build 60,000 dreadnoughts. And if we had, then they simply land, and how do we take them out? Oh probably a few hundred thousand frigates that can fly in atmosphere. There wasn't enough time to prepare. So... Crucible + space magic for a victory. Otherwise it was a lost war.

 

Well you could always have introduced a bigger good sort of type (kinda like the Asgards in Star Gate).

 

Or have a twist where everyone dies but the next cycle wins or the Reapers are diminished enough that the cycles are eventually broken.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

But a "bigger good sort" would be a higher tech galaxy in the process of being overrun by their own synthetics, and they're giving us technology to fight the reapers. We would still have to build it, and since they made contact, wouldn't their own synthetics find a way of getting here?

 

Or a twist where everyone dies? Wasn't that the refuse ending? Or that joke ending of "This Station Is Mine!" How would that feel if that was the only ending? Five years to fight a lost war? No thanks, you can keep that game. A book or movie I can deal with it. They only cost $10 to see or read, not $60 or more. And buy DLC for that? Are you nuts?

[Iakus]

That's not strictly true. Codex:
 

You're getting sloppier lately.

 

Edit: I'm liking your post for the Marvin the Martian quote, though.

 

 And that's not what we are shown.  We are specifically shown the beam going from relay to relay, at each one expanding like a bubble to engulf Reapers in the system.  you even get to watch it on the galaxy map.  

 

Which is actually how relays work.  You go from one point to another.  Or to a limited number of places, for secondary relays.  They are not omnidirectonal.

 

 So while I guess it's nice there's a "theory" mentioned in the game, even if it is buried in the codex, it doesn't line up with either how relays have been shown to work nor how the scene actually plays out.

[Iakus]

The problem wasn't necessarily the Reapers. It was the Reaper Invasion. Once that happened the story was broken without space magic. There was no way to defeat them conventionally. Three years wasn't long enough to build 60,000 dreadnoughts. And if we had, then they simply land, and how do we take them out? Oh probably a few hundred thousand frigates that can fly in atmosphere. There wasn't enough time to prepare. So... Crucible + space magic for a victory. Otherwise it was a lost war.

If there really are tens of thousands of Sovereign-class Reapers and who knows how  many hundreds of thousands of destroyers, then yeah the entire trilogy simply comes apart at the seams.  There's no point in depending on the dark space relay, sneak attacks, an no coalition or superweapon can possibility beat them.  Each civilizations would be neck deep in thousands of Reapers long before they could find any superweapon blueprints hidden in a "small data cache" that went unnoticed for three decades.

[ImaginaryMatter]

But a "bigger good sort" would be a higher tech galaxy in the process of being overrun by their own synthetics, and they're giving us technology to fight the reapers. We would still have to build it, and since they made contact, wouldn't their own synthetics find a way of getting here?

 

Or a twist where everyone dies? Wasn't that the refuse ending? Or that joke ending of "This Station Is Mine!" How would that feel if that was the only ending? Five years to fight a lost war? No thanks, you can keep that game. A book or movie I can deal with it. They only cost $10 to see or read, not $60 or more. And buy DLC for that? Are you nuts?

 

By bigger good I guess it could be something like the Leviathan's. A race that is advance but hid themselves. Perhaps, they agree to join the current cycle making victory a possibility. I guess Asgards were the wrong choice.

 

As for an everyone dies ending that was mostly personal. After picking the Refuse ending enough times I oddly found myself at peace with everyone dying, plus the Liara scene reminds me of Halo: Reach which was a game I enjoyed which had a similar ending.

[AlanC9]

And that's not what we are shown. We are specifically shown the beam going from relay to relay, at each one expanding like a bubble to engulf Reapers in the system. you even get to watch it on the galaxy map.

Which is actually how relays work. You go from one point to another. Or to a limited number of places, for secondary relays. They are not omnidirectonal.

So while I guess it's nice there's a "theory" mentioned in the game, even if it is buried in the codex, it doesn't line up with either how relays have been shown to work nor how the scene actually plays out.

"Buried in the Codex" is cute, but If you're going to talk about the lore, knowing the lore comes with the territory.

As for overloaded relays being able to release an omnidirectional FTL wave.... a tech that we don't understand works in ways we didn't expect? Is this supposed to be surprising?

What's your actual problem here? That the wave emanates from all the relays rather than just one?

[Iakus]

"Buried in the Codex" is cute, but If you're going to talk about the lore, knowing the lore comes with the territory.

As for overloaded relays being able to release an omnidirectional FTL wave.... a tech that we don't understand works in ways we didn't expect? Is this supposed to be surprising?

What's your actual problem here? That the wave emanates from all the relays rather than just one?

The codex is a fine source for fleshing out details and adding context.  But is not the appropriate place for depositing important plot points.  Such as how the device we're gathering resources for is "theoretically" supposed to work.

 

As to the other point:  Yes.  Because mass relays don't work like that.  And the Crucible is "little more than a power source"

 

My problem is the wave emanates at ftl speeds to strike down synthetic life.  The codex entry you cited suggests the relays could be used as a sort of "Galaxy Gun", firing something through relay networks to hit something else in another system.  Okay, that's fine.  The Alliance did something similar during the First Contact War with those remote nukes.  

 

Problem is, you can't use the relays exactly as guns.  They create massless corridors, which is how they get around pesky little details like ramming into planets and stars:  

 

"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy!  Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"

 

Anything coming out the other end of the corridor could again interact with the rest of the galaxy, but will still be subject to standard modes of propulsion.  Sure one could come up with some sort of missile with an ftl drive and a VI guidance system that could pop through a relay, lock onto a Reaper and ftl into it.  That has a sort of Galaxy Gun feel to it.

 

But with an energy discharge, you're limited to lightspeed.  We know Reapers can outrun that.  And nearby systems would have years of warning before the wave reached them.  And this is aside from that whole dispersal and attenuation problem.   

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

@Iakus - Well the EC further broke the trilogy IMO. In the Original Ending you didn't know what exactly the Crucible was. You could almost buy the explosions because it was some sort of mysterious technology. But in the EC, when the Catalyst says, "the Crucible is little more than a power source" you're thinking what, we made a big f***ing battery? So BioWare could have made some advertising money by getting Duracell to advertize on the Crucible.

 

The only thing that makes any sense, is that all of the reapers are controlled directly by the Catalyst, and once you destroy the Catalyst they no longer know what to do and stay put, doing nothing. Thus the "we are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness" was a bunch of crap. They weren't. The QE control signal ended, and they went totally inert. Had to be.

 

And remember, communications within a system uses normal space. So the reapers wouldn't have years advance warning. If the energy wave approached at c, they wouldn't see it coming, nor would they be able to give advance warning to other reapers. Sucks to be them. But it looked like it moved at way faster than c - had to because we would have been sitting at the galaxy map for thousands of years watching the ending from hell - hence "Space Magic!"

[KaiserShep]

I rarely ever explore much dialogue with the Catalyst. It took me a couple of playthroughs to get some of these lines. The way I saw it, standing there talking was a waste of time since the Catalyst, after claiming to control the reapers, didn't really seem to care to make them stop while this "negotiation" was going on, so it almost seems like the kid is stalling. Heck if anything, what would have really satisfied me would be to have a renegade interrupt that cuts the conversation off right there once we learn how to destroy the reapers. "Nope don't care don't wanna hear it outta my way, jerkass!" At least the machines in the Matrix had the courtesy of stopping the sentinels when Neo was talking to the Deus Ex Machina. In the time it took Neo to speak to this thing, the sentinels would have simply flooded the temple and killed the remaining humans in Zion before he could jack in to fight Smith.

[Iakus]

@Iakus - Well the EC further broke the trilogy IMO. In the Original Ending you didn't know what exactly the Crucible was. You could almost buy the explosions because it was some sort of mysterious technology. But in the EC, when the Catalyst says, "the Crucible is little more than a power source" you're thinking what, we made a big f***ing battery? So BioWare could have made some advertising money by getting Duracell to advertize on the Crucible.

 

The only thing that makes any sense, is that all of the reapers are controlled directly by the Catalyst, and once you destroy the Catalyst they no longer know what to do and stay put, doing nothing. Thus the "we are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness" was a bunch of crap. They weren't. The QE control signal ended, and they went totally inert. Had to be.

 

And remember, communications within a system uses normal space. So the reapers wouldn't have years advance warning. If the energy wave approached at c, they wouldn't see it coming, nor would they be able to give advance warning to other reapers. Sucks to be them. But it looked like it moved at way faster than c - had to because we would have been sitting at the galaxy map for thousands of years watching the ending from hell - hence "Space Magic!"

All true.  But remember That the only way the Reapers would get no warning would be if the Catalyst is in fact the only nation, independent, free of all weakness.  Otherwise, Reapers in the Dis system could go "Word has it, the monkeys are lighting up the Antaeus system.  Guess we should get out of the way until the dust settles"

[Iakus]

I rarely ever explore much dialogue with the Catalyst. It took me a couple of playthroughs to get some of these lines. The way I saw it, standing there talking was a waste of time since the Catalyst, after claiming to control the reapers, didn't really seem to care to make them stop while this "negotiation" was going on, so it almost seems like the kid is stalling. Heck if anything, what would have really satisfied me would be to have a renegade interrupt that cuts the conversation off right there once we learn how to destroy the reapers. "Nope don't care don't wanna hear it outta my way, jerkass!" At least the machines in the Matrix had the courtesy of stopping the sentinels when Neo was talking to the Deus Ex Machina. In the time it took Neo to speak to this thing, the sentinels would have simply flooded the temple and killed the remaining humans in Zion before he could jack in to fight Smith.

Liked for pointing out a way in which The Matrix Revolutions is actually superior to ME3

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Liked for pointing out a way in which The Matrix Revolutions is actually superior to ME3

 

That's a matter of subjective perspective. I don't find it to be truthful at all.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Liked for pointing out a way in which The Matrix Revolutions is actually superior to ME3

 

I wouldn't go that far.

[KaiserShep]

I will say that I like the Deus Ex Machina more than the catalyst though. The former is still this weird, alien-like thing that would very much prefer to kill us all. I would have liked the Catalyst to be some immense machine that we could see, rather than evil Avina.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I will say that I like the Deus Ex Machina more than the catalyst though. The former is still this weird, alien-like thing that would very much prefer to kill us all. I would have liked the Catalyst to be some immense machine that we could see, rather than evil Avina.

 

Since they went with the whole mystery motif, they probably should have went all the way. Have the final scene take place in the original garden location (you can still see the trees reflected on the floor, supposedly) and have the Catalyst be a voice with some gravity that is being spoken from every direction around Shepard.

 

I'm still not quite sure I can understand the decision making behind making the Catalyst a kid (I don't think he's supposed to be the kid from Shepard's dreams).

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

All true.  But remember That the only way the Reapers would get no warning would be if the Catalyst is in fact the only nation, independent, free of all weakness.  Otherwise, Reapers in the Dis system could go "Word has it, the monkeys are lighting up the Antaeus system.  Guess we should get out of the way until the dust settles"

 

 

Exactly. So you have to remember that the Leviathans, who had a few roos loose in the paddock, had the brilliant idea to instruct their thralls to build "The Intelligence" in the first place, and gave this Intelligence control over their defense ships. This was like hiring the dingo babysitting service. However, since the Leviathans were the driving intelligence behind "The Intelligence" one cannot expect "The Intelligence" to be more intelligent than the Leviathans were. I mean all this crap about "synthetics must evolve to surpass their creators" is bull****. It's in its coding. It's patently stupid. Listen to its arguments at the end of the game. It is something that needs its plug pulled. Listen to the arguments of the Leviathans: "The Intelligence still serves its purpose." That from the first galactic Darwin Award Winners. Idiots! So I've come to the conclusion that the Catalyst IS the ONLY one of the reaper lot that is independent and can even think on its limited basis. Like its creators, it is stupid. Once it is gone, the reapers are disconnected and don't know what to do. They have no voice.

[KaiserShep]

Leviathan: The Intelligence still serves a purpose

 

Shepard: And how's that working out for you?

 

Leviathan: At our apex, our species actually wore extravagant forms of clothing that our thralls would create, much in the same way the earth film depicted a female human's dress being constructed by your filthy mammalian fauna. Our kind has been reduced to squatting on the sea bed of a barren world naked, living on algae and enjoying the potent toxins secreted by the coelenterates that live here.

 

Shepard:...

 

Leviathan: It's a living.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Exactly. So you have to remember that the Leviathans, who had a few roos loose in the paddock, had the brilliant idea to instruct their thralls to build "The Intelligence" in the first place, and gave this Intelligence control over their defense ships. This was like hiring the dingo babysitting service. However, since the Leviathans were the driving intelligence behind "The Intelligence" one cannot expect "The Intelligence" to be more intelligent than the Leviathans were. I mean all this crap about "synthetics must evolve to surpass their creators" is bull****. It's in its coding. It's patently stupid. Listen to its arguments at the end of the game. It is something that needs its plug pulled. Listen to the arguments of the Leviathans: "The Intelligence still serves its purpose." That from the first galactic Darwin Award Winners. Idiots! So I've come to the conclusion that the Catalyst IS the ONLY one of the reaper lot that is independent and can even think on its limited basis. Like its creators, it is stupid. Once it is gone, the reapers are disconnected and don't know what to do. They have no voice.

 

The still serves a purpose line is certainly a head scratcher. No sane being would say that. The Catalyst plan was created (not necessarily programmed, mine you) to insure that the Leviathans continued receiving their tribute gravy train; which the Catalyst derailed and destroyed.

 

However, given that the DLC was created to retroactively justifying the Catalyst I think the line is in there so player's don't accidently mistake the Catalyst as a mistake.

 

Wow, now that I think about it, maybe the Leviathan's are the perfect analogy for the writers: "So the whole Catalyst thing didn't turn out as we expected it would... but it's not a mistake!"

[dreamgazer]

I'm still not quite sure I can understand the decision making behind making the Catalyst a kid (I don't think he's supposed to be the kid from Shepard's dreams).

Why?