"Yeah sorry, I know the world is ending and I'm the only one who can stop it and all that but I have to go to this Orlesian whorehouse first..."
As long as I can have an all male orgy with my love interest Dorian/IronBull :|
I was honestly surprised you couldn't invite Isabella to join you and a prostitute at the Blooming Rose, given you could at The Pearl.
Good point. Isabella invite you to join with Zevran.
As long as I can have an all male orgy with my love interest Dorian/IronBull :|
I don't know why, but think Dorian would disapprove on Polygamy. IronBull on other hand it feels like he is male version of Isabela, not like it's bad think. So he would happy having orgy.
I don't know why, but think Dorian would disapprove on Polygamy. IronBull on other hand it feels like he is male version of Isabela, not like it's bad think. So he would happy having orgy.
God if Isabella met the Iron Bull I think it would end bad.
I don't know why, but think Dorian would disapprove on Polygamy. IronBull on other hand it feels like he is male version of Isabela, not like it's bad think. So he would happy having orgy.
God if Isabella met the Iron Bull I think it would end bad.
Perhaps if Bioware would read this thread, it might better illustrate why brothels and mature content are not always intertwined together.
not sure why, we are having a mature and open discussion...no one is being called a **** or anything like that. For the Internet and BSN that's actually quite mature.
Yeah, 8 pages in even. Maybe 15-20 pages in this'll be a vile cestpool of bigotry and hate but it's not to bad right now.
I just wanna address a previous point.
Nobody is saying having male prostitutes magically gets rid of objectification of women ( well maybe somebody is) but it doesn't. Having them does mean that the game treats men and women about the same as far as the objectification goes though. Unless it sexualises the women more than the men but DA brothels don't seem to do that. In fact they don't sexualise anyone all that much, it's more of a joke thing
The devs are not singling women out in this respect, I find it interesting that for some the conversation is only about objectification of women when DA has had men in the brothels since Origins.
So that whole racism comparison completely misses the point, they aren't trying to make objectification ok It's just as ok or as not ok as it always was. The point is that they don't/shouldn't treat women as lesser than men in this situation.
Why ? You get offended when you see one ? You don't have to enter that place you know. You can move to the other buildings.
EXACTLY!!
Any player based upon their own moral predilections who does not want to get "physical" in that way, either by skipping romance options entirely or simply not entering and participating in mature fictional content featuring a brothel or nudity has the choice to do so by avoiding the location or content. Going beyond that and stating a preference that it not be included in these games at all is just a way to try and leverage said individuals own attitude onto others.
++ DA2 had Jethann. Found him quite funny too.I just wanna address a previous point.
Nobody is saying having male prostitutes magically gets rid of objectification of women ( well maybe somebody is) but it doesn't. Having them does mean that the game treats men and women about the same as far as the objectification goes though unless it sexualises the women more than the men but DA brothels don't seem to do that. In fact they don't sexualise anyone all that much, it's more of a joke thing
The devs are not singling women out in this respect, I find it interesting that for some the conversation is only about objectification of women when DA has had men in the brothels since Origins.
So that whole racism comparison completely misses the point, they aren't trying to make objectification ok It's just as ok or as not ok as it always was. The point is that they don't/shouldn't treat women as lesser than men in this situation.
Vivienne appears to be someone who would be a fairly competent Madam. She has that aloofness that would be needed.
well our culture has shifted to more of an individualistic style then a collective one.
God if Isabella met the Iron Bull I think it would end bad.
By all chances Isabella is a regular rider of the bull.
it's a similar thing with porn, a lot of the abuse and corruptness happens behind the scenes so you can't just look at a sex worker and say "oh yeah, s/he wants to be there. they have no problem doing this" unless you are a mind reader
Well it's difficult when one side is saying it's full of corruption and the other is saying it's not, neither is right. I know people who have worked in the porn industry and they claim to have enjoyed it and to have been treated perfectly fine. That's not the case for everyone of course but I feel like both sides of this debate over exaggerate immensely.
but most of those same people don't seem to care about that when they watch porn or buy prostitutes or go to a strip club because they don't see those people as deserving of the same respect
How do you know that they don't? There are other reasons why people might not want their kids doing porn and other sex related jobs. For one thing it can be dangerous like you said and parents tend to be over cautious with their children. It's also not generally a lifetime career and so you will be at a disadvantage when you are no longer able to do it, it can also ruin future careers if it gets out because of how it is viewed.
So no that's not really evidence that people do not respect people in the sex industry, some just don't see it as a desirable job. I don't want to be a street cleaner but that does not mean I think street cleaners are not worthy of respect.
most of your argument lies on the premise of "choice" which does not surprise me, what with the "sex-positive" movement spreading like wildfire which is obsessed with choice, choice, choice, individualism, moral-relativism choice choice.
This is because the other side generally completely disregards choice. People should be able to do as they please with their lives and with their bodies (if they are mentally stable).
but a few sex workers who honestly enjoy their job does not change the fact that millions of people (especially women and children) all around the world are enslaved in the sex industry and wish they could leave but don't have the resources, don't know where to go, or are afraid for their life if they try to escape
In places where such things are looked down upon, illegal or not well regulated this can be a massive problem but is this not what you are promoting?
I don't know where I stand on the sex industry but the sex positive movement seems to have allot more respect for women and people in general than people who just outright oppose the industry.
Not wishing to divert the thread too far away from the boobs conversation,
but I was quite struck by what I found to be an intelligent analysis of the trope:
"Women as Background Decoration" by Anita Sarkeesian.
I found Anita's assessment to be a little unforgiving in places but
generally she made important points that should give any
(particularly male) gamer pause for thought and for that reason I have linked it here.
I think BioWare on the whole handle this matter a lot more intelligently than most.
The host of the video makes truly excellent points, there can be no doubt about it. However, I admit that I do make a distinction between the representation of women in real world settings, like the crime and military games, and fantasy games like Witcher and Dragon Age. There are a boatload of games of all types out there that feature such content solely for gratuitous reasons that to me renders it (and those games) invalid, but fantasy role-playing games in fictional settings that never existed in the first place seem open to interpretation to me. Maybe that's wrong in some estimations, but I don't see the problem here - sorry!
The host of the video makes truly excellent points, there can be no doubt about it. However, I admit that I do make a distinction between the representation of women in real world settings, like the crime and military games, and fantasy games like Witcher and Dragon Age. There are a boatload of games of all types out there that feature such content solely for gratuitous reasons that to me renders it (and those games) invalid, but fantasy role-playing games in fictional settings that never existed in the first place seem open to interpretation to me. Maybe that's wrong in some estimations, but I don't see the problem here - sorry!
no she really doesn't... she has to manipulate the game in ways not meant to be played to achieve her desired narrative. All she does is basically say this is feminist theory. Heck she does not even allow critique of her 'work'. Her work is not balanced and she preachers from a position of implied authority. She never cites work outside of Feminist theory. She is basically a hack.
The most worrying thing is that she promotes the idea that gaming can change the way people behave as though it is well known fact. It's not there have been many studies into it and no strong link has been found. It's possible that some games may raise aggression in some people who become aggressive more easily but it still doesn't seem to be a long term thing or translate into any kind of change in behavior in the real world.
For a series that is meant to be educational I think it's reasonable to expect more than a bunch of unsupported opinions and mistakes due to a lack of research and understanding of the source material.
no she really doesn't... she has to manipulate the game in ways not meant to be played to achieve her desired narrative. All she does is basically say this is feminist theory. Heck she does not even allow critique of her 'work'. Her work is not balanced and she preachers from a position of implied authority. She never cites work outside of Feminist theory. She is basically a hack.
This is what happens then someone talks about games, when never played one in her life. She just takes bit of game and use it out of context.
Recruit npcs for the whorehouse LOL
"Hey do you want to be a prostitute for the Inquisition?"
If we ever take control of a brothel, I want to coordinate my prostitutes and tell them to spy on targets. That would be a challenge. Pimpin' ain't easy.
This would be nice addition to spy network.
Lovely comment. Perhaps you are also going tell me that all women prostitutes are special snowflakes that have been oppressed ?
Women are not objects, no matter how much you want it to be true. Women are individuals who make their own choices. Women have agency, they are not perpetual victims.
A woman who chooses to be a prostitute is not oppressed or suddenly becomes just an object to be attained. A consensual prostitute is just a woman engaging in a business transaction where she exchanges sex willingly for resources which in this case is money. She is, in this regard, no different from a blacksmith or a herbalist or an enchanter or a general goods trader.
So far in The Witcher series, the prostitutes that the main character, Geralt, have come across and have the pleasure of having sexual intercourse with, do not in any way, seem to be forced to be there. This is no different than prostitutes in countries like Germany and Australia, where they willingly ply their trade.
Furthermore, women who willingly become prostitutes in this fashion are actually recognized by some degree as workers and therefore actually treated as such instead of slutty women or lesser women or trashy women.
Additionally, what does "treated like people" mean ?
Morrigan puts it very nicely:- "In my experience, everyone pays for sex." I love that woman.
Everyone. When you enter into a romantic relationship with another person, one of the goals is to have sex with this said person. To that end you court them, you buy them gifts, you spend your time with them, you be emotionally vulnerable to them, etc. One of the goals of this is to engage in sexual intercourse and to that end you are investing your resources which are your money, your time and your emotions into the relationship.
When a person has sex with a prostitute willingly, the fundamental dynamic remain the same. One gives a way money for sex while the other receives money in return for sex.
Does this mean having sex with a prostitute in a consensual manner equates to objectification, oppression and treating others as lesser beings ? No. It is a different path for a person to gain access to sex and resources. It is not a worse path or a better path or morally superior path. It is a different path. A more streamlined, more business-like, more direct path.
This is why CDPR's depiction of prostitutes are, again, better. The prostitutes in The Witcher series are plying their trade in a consensual manner and there is an adult scene when Geralt access their services. Overall, it is depicted in a way mature and understanding adults would depict prostitution.
If anything, the statement you made shows that you have very limited view on sex, you do not view women as beings capable of acting on their own volition and you think of people who are willing to act in a more business-like and direct fashion as lesser peoples or even non-peoples.
It is a statement full of ignorance and naivety, signifying lack of mature thinking.
I'm not going to argue too heavily, because I'll admit that I'm arguing from a play of relative ignorance. I've never played the Witcher, and I'm unlikely to ever play The Witcher. However, a couple of points, the first Witcher game had a system where you received trading cards for sleeping with all the female characters...freaking trading cards, if you don't see how that objectifies women then you have a problem. Second, just because a (probably male) writer decides to write fictional women who are consenting to show you their fictional boobies it doesn't mean that it doesn't demean real women.
But again, the problem with brothels in games (and this applies to DA games to a lesser extent) isn't that men have sex with women or that women have sex with women or men with men or whatever. That's fine, consensual sex is cool. The problem with brothels is that they aren't generally populated with characters, they're generally populated with NPCs who lack any depth to their character beyond the sex that they offer the player. When you sexualize these non-characters to a greater degree, it becomes more problematic than when (in DA) brothels are mostly included as jokey places. Again, I haven't played the games, but I feel skeptical of the ability of a game that reduced all of its female characters to trading cards to portray women in a positive light.
Edit: Basically, I don't have an inherent problem with brothels in game. My problem comes when brothels are included solely as a method of delivering eye-candy to the straight males that generally play these games (and tbh, they'd be equally problematic if the presented men in these ways).
Don't mind as long in not forced to anything there same for pubs i rly dislike when my character does something that i don't want like drink (witcher and da 2).And rly i hope da will never be so stereotypical as witcher.
Although I really do fear a discussion on the Tropes stuff because it never ends well, I'm going to risk it. I've been gaming all my life, the first machine I remember was the Spectrum +3 and yet I have never left a single one of her videos without wondering, questioning and looking again at things I just took for granted. That is not to say I have left agreeing with every single point she raises, I don't, I do leave them looking again at what I think. That then from my POV makes her videos a success, they don't exist to make us suddenly convert and walk lock step I suspect, but to make us look again at issues.
As to not allowing discussion on the videos she produces, well considering that when she did the most common responses where at times from the Vocal minority who sent her Rape Threats, that well was poisoned a long time ago, she does go to a lot of conferences with a back and forth with the audience, at the same time at such places she can be sure not to get Rape Threats and more, and have an actual discussion of the issues involved.
Edit to add.
On the accusations that she is not a 'Real Gamer' I A.) find that to be frankly a silly statement, how do people know her entertainment habits if she says she is a gamer, then I have no reason to doubt her. and B.) Even if it where true it doesn't matter. You can criticise a form of entertainment or art without being part of it, she would still have every right to do so even if she had never picked up a game controller in her life. I am immediatly suspicous of any attack on her work that includes those lines, as I begin to doubt from where it comes from, and rarely see it as an attempt to honestly discuss the subjects brought up.
As I said before her video's are too full of dishonesty for me to take seriously and any decent point she makes is usually something I would have thought obvious. There is a ton of sexism in gaming and I have never been unaware of that. Maybe it's good that it makes you look at the issue again but you are still being fed an incredibly biased narrative that is designed to make the gaming industry look a certain way. It goes beyond objectification, she is outright saying that these games intentionally teach men to hate women.
So whether or not it is a success is not really relevant.
Yes she gets trolled allot but she ignores all criticism despite the fact that allot of it is not trolling at all. People have legitimate concerns with some of the things she's been saying in her video's and yet they are lumped together with the trolls by her and her supporters.
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