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It's surreal to love something that is so hated by others


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#151
ImaginaryMatter

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Legion says in ME2 that the Reapers are "billions of organic minds uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies". They are more than just DNA-mush.

 

And here we go again with the Catalyst logic complaints. Look, it seems that BioWare chose to dumb down the Catalyst's explanation of the cycle because they didn't want it to go over anyone's head, but by doing so, they made it sound literally dumb. However, some great people have posted intelligent threads about the Catalyst's true intentions:

 

http://forum.bioware...-leviathan-dlc/

http://forum.bioware...ial-integrated/

 

According to Chris l'Etoile, that conversation was left over from when the original plan for the human Reapers was that it contained the uploaded minds of the colonists gained through 'destructive analysis' instead of the 'essence of a species'.

 

As for those threads while they do contain good explanations a lot of it is also pure speculation.



#152
Arcian

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According to Chris l'Etoile, that conversation was left over from when the original plan for the human Reapers was that it contained the uploaded minds of the colonists gained through 'destructive analysis' instead of the 'essence of a species'.

 

As for those threads while they do contain good explanations a lot of it is also pure speculation.

It's also not evidence. For example, the question of why we've never seen or heard God if he exists; I can say that the reason we have never seen or heard God is because he's on vacation in another universe. That alone isn't evidence that he exists. It's just speculation. Speculation without empirical data to support it is pointless. which is why speculative threads - while certainly entertaining - are ultimately pointless. We can only judge the game based on the contents within the game.



#153
CosmicGnosis

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Speculation that makes a whole lot more sense than the Catalyst's limited explanation.

 

Also, the Catalyst itself proves its own argument; it's an example of what a single synthetic can accomplish on a galactic scale. We are "lucky" that this particular synthetic wants to "preserve" organic life instead of outright destroying it. 



#154
ImaginaryMatter

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Speculation that makes a whole lot more sense than the Catalyst's limited explanation.

 

Also, the Catalyst itself proves its own argument; it's an example of what a single synthetic can accomplish on a galactic scale. We are "lucky" that this particular synthetic wants to "preserve" organic life instead of outright destroying it. 

 

You can speculate a whole range of things that make more sense than the current explanation. Ryncol theory comes to mind.

 

While I think the Catalyst has come closer to being the kind of AI that it's trying to prevent than anything else. I don't think it's quite a self fulfilling prophecy yet as it hasn't started glassing planets or something to assure that organic life never again evolves.



#155
Arcian

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Speculation that makes a whole lot more sense than the Catalyst's limited explanation. 

It has no meaning whether it appears to make sense or not if it's not supported by empirical data.

 

Also, the Catalyst itself proves its own argument; it's an example of what a single synthetic can accomplish on a galactic scale. We are "lucky" that this particular synthetic wants to "preserve" organic life instead of outright destroying it. 

It did not single-handedly achieve what it did. It had a massive army of pre-Reaper synthetics to do its dirty work.

 

And as far as the Catalyst's idea of "preserving" organic life goes, it it is the future equivalent of taxidermy. Without life signs, there is no life. If I blend a human being, the blend juice isn't alive. Sure, it's full of the building blocks of life, but it's not alive.



#156
Obadiah

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To accept Synthesis you have to accept that you are dealing with science, technology, and theories at work of which you have barely any concept.
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#157
AlanC9

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To accept Synthesis you have to accept that you are dealing with science, technology, and theories at work of which you have barely any concept.


Not just Synthesis.
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#158
dreamgazer

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2) I really didn't. This is a point where we're talking past each other. I'm referring to the vitalism/mysticism 'life energy/soul power' that is being referred to by the Catalyst. I've kept relatively silent on the other portions of Synthesis. The stuff I've referred to is scientific cockamamey disproved centuries ago but brought up again here. The whole 'other organics weren't ready but you are' issue is drawn up here as well.


"The cipher is the very essence of being a Prothean".

"... absorb the essence of a species".

The idea of a vague magical "essence" of a person or persons is emphasized in both ME1 and ME2.
 

3) You didn't answer the question (and presented a double-standard with Synthesis).


How would you like for me to answer? With research into a plant's nervous system and lack of ability to clone external organisms, with a physiological diagram showing a lack of organic receptor for mass data transfer between minds, and with textual proof that brain death is, indeed, permanent?
 

4) No I didn't. I've told you what issues I have with the application of Synthesis and how its explanation is basically cheap mysticism that was disproved by science at least 200 years ago. Here's a question; how open to any explanation would you be for either concept of reversing brain death and physical resurrection and the ability of an organism to be able to absorb a consciousness of a living being? As for leaving something unstated; No. It's a case-by-case basis. In terms of synthesis, the explanation for the fundamental source of it was complete non-sense, yes, even more so than reversing brain death or a telepathic plant. Because what it used as an explanation was proved wrong hundreds of years ago. I can't say for much on the xenobiology of a telepathic plant (or telepathy in general), but reversing brain death and physical resurrection may well be possible in the future. There aren't any explanations I can give you that wouldn't be hand-waived by you though.
 
5) Your last point is a strawman. I never said that our understanding was flawed or wrong, with both situations being, at this current time, both firmly in the realm of fiction. However, I will say that they are incomplete; to the best of our understanding, there is no precedent for either case via modern Earth biology, but somewhere else in the universe, and in the future (possibly far future)? I wouldn't rule out things in the realm of possibility for all time to come based on our own modern understanding and technology. We can't say what any speculative xenobiology would truly be, nor can we say that technology can never find a way around our mortality.


You're actually establishing a double standard throughout this by giving unstated "speculative xenobiology" a pass and cracking down on speculative nanotechnology (established throughout the narrative) and theoretical particle physics (mentioned in ME3). I'm actually very open to technobabble explanations that clash with known principles, so long as it's from the author of the text instead of conveniently avoided at opportune times. Again, I personally think the practical application of Synthesis is unreliable and untrustworthy too, something I'd never choose, but that's what you've got when you get your hands dirty with the malleable threshold of science.

"Speculative" science is little more than a palatable rewording of Clarke's third law, which---when associated with the bold---applies to more than xenobiology.

And no, that wasn't a strawman.

#159
Jukaga

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Man, they really should have just had Shepard be in a coma or something.

Or just not go crashing through the atmosphere. Shepard being resurectted from a frozen preserved state would be much easier to swallow than what we got. I just put a hand over my eye now so I don't see the re-entry and assume they found Shepard in a frozen, pristine state. We're pretty good these days at bringing people back even hours after clinincal death if they drowned in freezing water or the like. Who's to say that we couldn't do more in the future.



#160
Humakt83

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Or just not go crashing through the atmosphere.


It is not Earth's atmosphere though, so friction applied to object falling through it is not likely equal in there. It is a frozen world plus gravity and air density might be a lot lower and it wasn't like Shepard was in his pyjamas.

If his body didn't simply disintegrate, I don't personally see how rebuilding him would be implausible 170 years in future with help from Reaper tech even.

#161
Arcian

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To accept Synthesis you have to accept that you are dealing with science, technology, and theories at work of which you have barely any concept.

Synthesis has about as much to do with science, technology and theories as a wizard's magic. Casey Hudson and Super MAC just used synthesis as a fairy wand to give nanoaugmentations to the entire galaxy.


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#162
CronoDragoon

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Synthesis has about as much to do with science, technology and theories as a wizard's magic.

 

That's the point, and one that has been explored by multiple sci-fi authors, and probably best exemplified by Jack Vance. You are dealing with a level of technology sufficiently advanced as to be considered magic by our scientific standards. Where the line between fantasy and science fiction lies isn't as clear as some make it out to be.


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#163
Jukaga

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Synthesis has about as much to do with science, technology and theories as a wizard's magic. Casey Hudson and Super MAC just used synthesis as a fairy wand to give nanoaugmentations to the entire galaxy.

Who is to say really. It's a Type-III level technology which by definition we would only be able to consider magic at this point of our development.


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#164
Obadiah

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Who is to say really. It's a Type-III level technology which by definition we would only be able to consider magic at this point of our development.

Pretty much. One can either accept that it is possible in the context of the story, or not (and never stop complaining about it apparently).
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#165
CosmicGnosis

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The issue with Synthesis and space magic is that I'm not sure how a device that has been created haphazardly by many civilizations over many eons has the power to completely change the nature of life in the galaxy almost instantaneously. I'm not even sure I can believe that the Reapers have that capability. It's so beyond anything that has been implied about technology in the Mass Effect universe.

 

On the other hand, I suppose it's plausible that some absolutely absurd stuff could be achieved if one were to harness the energy of the entire mass relay network and focus it in some way. 


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#166
dreamgazer

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The issue with Synthesis and space magic is that I'm not sure how a device that has been created haphazardly by many civilizations over many eons has the power to completely change the nature of life in the galaxy almost instantaneously. I'm not even sure I can believe that the Reapers have that capability. It's so beyond anything that has been implied about technology in the Mass Effect universe.


The design, dispersal, and universal application of the genophage comes to mind, though it's not directly related to the technology side of your concern.

#167
CosmicGnosis

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The design, dispersal, and universal application of the genophage comes to mind.

... Interesting point, but that is still limited to a single planet. Synthesis affects every living thing within a diameter of 100,000 light-years.



#168
Hello!I'mTheDoctor

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The design, dispersal, and universal application of the genophage comes to mind.

 

There's a very large disparity between atmospheric precipitation/fallout that may take months to spread sufficiently over the entire planet (we never see anything more than shots that are within the vicinity of the Shroud) and near instantaneous transmission across the entire galaxy, with shockwaves moving faster than light by many, many, many, many times. Literally, one second you're normal, the next synthesis has happened.


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#169
Hello!I'mTheDoctor

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... Interesting point, but that is still limited to a single planet. Synthesis affects every living thing within a diameter of 100,000 light-years.

 

Within a matter of minutes, I might add.



#170
CosmicGnosis

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Within a matter of minutes, I might add.

Still, who knows what can happen when you harness the energy of the relay network all at once. You're probably creating some serious spacetime anomalies and warping the fabric of reality on a galactic scale. It would likely be catastrophic if left uncontrolled... which is why Low EMS endings are bad.



#171
dreamgazer

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There's a very large disparity between atmospheric precipitation/fallout that may take months to spread sufficiently over the entire planet (we never see anything more than shots that are within the vicinity of the Shroud) and near instantaneous transmission across the entire galaxy, with shockwaves moving faster than light by many, many, many, many times. Literally, one second you're normal, the next synthesis has happened.

 

All krogan were affected, regardless of location or degree of exposure or any other variables. 

 

But yes, Synthesis' rate of effectiveness and dispersal is overwhelmingly quicker, just like using the relays for travel. 



#172
CosmicGnosis

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Seriously, I never really appreciated the use of the relay network in its totality. I mean, just imagine how badly things could go wrong. You might detonate the galaxy, or rip it apart, or create a galaxy-sized black hole. The more I contemplate this, the easier it is for me to accept something like Synthesis.

 

But this makes me wonder why the Catalyst didn't just do it. Why couldn't it have built its own Crucible or something? The energy of the relay network is practically god-like; it violates all laws of physics. If the Reapers could build the network, why couldn't they alter the whole galaxy themselves?



#173
Hello!I'mTheDoctor

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All krogan were affected, regardless of location or degree of exposure or any other variables. 

 

But yes, Synthesis' rate of effectiveness and dispersal is overwhelmingly quicker, just like using the relays for travel. 

 

Yes, but my question is whether it was instantaneous, or if it took some time. The scale is still immeasurably higher than for the Crucible or Synthesis in particular. And not just the transmission through the relays.

 

The shockwaves from each successive relay are shown to spread out over an incredibly large area (hundreds of lightyears across, possibly even thousands), in minutes, which means that the shockwave and synthesis wave are traveling out in all directions, traversing hundreds of lightyears in minutes, in seconds. That's a lot different than the Shroud, which may take months to fully spread out over the entire surface of Tuchanka.



#174
dreamgazer

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Yes, but my question is whether it was instantaneous, or if it took some time. The scale is still immeasurably higher than for the Crucible or Synthesis in particular. And not just the transmission through the relays.

 

The shockwaves from each successive relay are shown to spread out over an incredibly large area (hundreds of lightyears across, possibly even thousands), in minutes, which means that the shockwave and synthesis wave are traveling out in all directions, traversing hundreds of lightyears in minutes, in seconds. That's a lot different than the Shroud, which may take months to fully spread out over the entire surface of Tuchanka.

 

I'm not disputing the rapidity and sprawl of the Synthesis wave, which is the result of exploiting the relay network with a sufficiently advanced piece of tech.

 

I am addressing the science's ability to affect all krogan in one fell swoop and in an unidentified space of time, which goes beyond Tuchanka.  It's touching on "the power to completely change the nature of life in the galaxy almost instantaneously", which the genophage seems to do pretty effectively. 



#175
CronoDragoon

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But this makes me wonder why the Catalyst didn't just do it. Why couldn't it have built its own Crucible or something? The energy of the relay network is practically god-like; it violates all laws of physics. If the Reapers could build the network, why couldn't they alter the whole galaxy themselves?

 

We're going to have to take the Catalyst at his mystical word here: organics were not ready before. The Catalyst said that he's tried before and it's failed, and he's concluded that it's something the galaxy must choose for itself. That it "cannot be forced."

 

Now if you accept that these words are true from his point of view, you start getting into interesting questions about what constitutes readiness for the Catalyst.