265 réponses à ce sujet

[Farangbaa]

The Catalyst wants Shepard to enact a new solution, but he initially went there to destroy the Reapers. Until the Crucible is actually used to enact Control or Synthesis, the Reapers must assume that he'll use the Crucible to destroy them, that's why they continue to attack it.

If Shepard won't decide anything, the cycles have to continue.

His solution might not work anymore (in the presence of better solutions), but it's still a solution, albeit an imperfect one, and it's better than no solution. (Catalyst's POV, before somebody jumps out of their panties)

Let's just accept the fact that this third game wasn't going to make everyone happy to begin with. They stated it many times through interviews.

Amen.

[Fixers0]

I find the title to be somewhat disturbing, calling it "surreal" when people have differences of view and taste strikes me as a disregard of the freedom of expression that is so valued in modern-day western society.

 

 

Boy, I wouldn't want someone with those views in charge of my country.

[Teddie Sage]

Yeah, it's kinda narrow-minded come to think of it.

[CosmicGnosis]

I find the title to be somewhat disturbing, calling it "surreal" when people have differences of view and taste strikes me as a disregard of the freedom of expression that is so valued in modern-day western society.

 

 

Boy, I wouldn't want someone with those views in charge of my country.

But it is surreal. It feels strange to like something that others despise. I'm compelled to understand why I like it, and why others hate it. So I'm not trying to suppress these opinions; I'm trying to understand them. But it just so happens that I don't find many of them to be very persuasive. I agreed with some of them before the Extended Cut, but not anymore. 

[Iakus]

But it is surreal. It feels strange to like something that others despise. I'm compelled to understand why I like it, and why others hate it. So I'm not trying to suppress these opinions; I'm trying to understand them. But it just so happens that I don't find many of them to be very persuasive. I agreed with some of them before the Extended Cut, but not anymore. 

Heck I'm still trying to understand how the writers thought that these endings would fly at all.

 

On some level, I can understand how some people might like a "bittersweet" ending with some sort of sweeping change to the galaxy.  But I can't fathom how Bioware thought that should be the only possible outcome.  

 

And many of those who do like the results of the ending seem to admit that the endings themselves were poorly executed, both before and after EC.

[KaiserShep]

But it is surreal. It feels strange to like something that others despise. I'm compelled to understand why I like it, and why others hate it. So I'm not trying to suppress these opinions; I'm trying to understand them. But it just so happens that I don't find many of them to be very persuasive. I agreed with some of them before the Extended Cut, but not anymore.

Heck sometimes I find it surreal to despise something that lots of people like. I'll never understand how Into Darkness got the rating it has on Rottentomatoes.com. It boggles my mind.

[CronoDragoon]

Heck I'm still trying to understand how the writers thought that these endings would fly at all.

 

On some level, I can understand how some people might like a "bittersweet" ending with some sort of sweeping change to the galaxy.  But I can't fathom how Bioware thought that should be the only possible outcome.  

 

And many of those who do like the results of the ending seem to admit that the endings themselves were poorly executed, both before and after EC.

 

I can't fathom how BioWare thought the original endings were bittersweet.

[KaiserShep]

I imagine if one is particularly cynical, it can be considered bittersweet. I guess I'm just not cynical enough to see it.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Heck sometimes I find it surreal to despise something that lots of people like. I'll never understand how Into Darkness got the rating it has on Rottentomatoes.com. It boggles my mind.

 

Although the script is silly, the film is other wise very well made.

 

I also think most people don't realize how pandering it is.

[JasonShepard]

Heck sometimes I find it surreal to despise something that lots of people like. I'll never understand how Into Darkness got the rating it has on Rottentomatoes.com. It boggles my mind.

 

*Sigh* I thoroughly enjoyed Into Darkness on first viewing. Noticed some of the weaknesses in the plot when thinking about it afterwards. Noticed a lot more on second viewing. Now I can't enjoy it all, and I'm really hoping they change up the production team for ST3.

 

Unfortunately, while they have done that, putting one of the scriptwriters in the director's seat isn't exactly the change I was hoping for.

[Fixers0]

But it is surreal. It feels strange to like something that others despise. I'm compelled to understand why I like it, and why others hate it. So I'm not trying to suppress these opinions; I'm trying to understand them. But it just so happens that I don't find many of them to be very persuasive. I agreed with some of them before the Extended Cut, but not anymore. 

 

Outside the realm of opinion, a lot of discussion is caused by interperation of the material presented, which is also the case in regards to the ending debate.

 

That being said, I recognized fairly early on that the endings were merely a sympton of a larger dissease, and the implosion of the Mass Effect universe was an invenitable result of the aimless direction in which the writers wanderderd. The extended cut in this regard is nothing more than a cleanup job, it does not in anyway rationalize the problems that were present in the orginal endings, It merely handwaves those issues and instead foccuses on specifing the engame states. 

[Liec]

So....why not just let him bleed out on the floor if the Catalyst has to make that assumption?

 

The way I see it, to reconcile the fact that the Catalyst both wants Shepard to use the Crucible in a certain way and that it's trying to destroy it, you have to make the assumption that the Catalyst can't stop Shepard from taking action. This is particularly evident in the lowest EMS Destroy ending, where the Catalyst doesn't mention other solutions at all, it merely warns Shepard against using the Crucible and says it's up to you to come up with a new solution.

 

In other words, Shepard would've made it work even if the Catalyst hadn't interfered.

[AlanC9]

Although the script is silly, the film is other wise very well made.
 
I also think most people don't realize how pandering it is.

Or they do realize it but they like the pandering.

[Iakus]

The way I see it, to reconcile the fact that the Catalyst both wants Shepard to use the Crucible in a certain way and that it's trying to destroy it, you have to make the assumption that the Catalyst can't stop Shepard from taking action. This is particularly evident in the lowest EMS Destroy ending, where the Catalyst doesn't mention other solutions at all, it merely warns Shepard against using the Crucible and says it's up to you to come up with a new solution.

 

In other words, Shepard would've made it work even if the Catalyst hadn't interfered.

What what the Catalyst did goes beyond simply not stopping Shepard, it physically brought Shepard to that point where the choice can be made via the Magic Space Elevator.  There is no way Shepard could have found that place on his own.

[Obadiah]

There is no cannon lore that says Shepard couldn't have simply re-awoken at the control panel a few minutes after passing out (as he does later in the Decision Chamber), figured out how to use the elevator, made it up to the Decision Chamber, and shot the valve preventing the Crucible from firing.

[Iakus]

There is no cannon lore that says Shepard couldn't have simply re-awoken at the control panel a few minutes after passing out (as he does later in the Decision Chamber), figured out how to use the elevator, made it up to the Decision Chamber, and shot the valve preventing the Crucible from firing.

In over two thousand years, no one ever found that elevator.  How is a half-dead, semiconscious human who doesn't even know it's there going to stumble across it?

[Obadiah]

Why not? Shepard, the half dead semi-conscious human somehow knows how to operate the control panel to open the Citadel Ward arms. How do you know the control panel doesn't have something indicating there is an elevator in the room? Even if Shepard didn't find the elevator, how do you know Shepard wouldn't contact Hackett for assistance, perhaps take readings of the panel and the room, send them to an engineer on Hackett's ship for analysis, and then find the elevator or some other mechanism to shut down the valve preventing the Crucible from firing?

Of course, I like my interpretation of that scene the best - that it was just pure dumb luck that Shepard activated the elevator to the Decision Chamber, and the Catalyst did not actually bring Shepard up there.

[Iakus]

Why not? Shepard, the half dead semi-conscious human somehow knows how to operate the control panel to open the Citadel Ward arms. How do you know the control panel doesn't have something indicating there is an elevator in the room? Even if Shepard didn't find the elevator, how do you know Shepard wouldn't contact Hackett for assistance, perhaps take readings of the panel and the room, send them to an engineer on Hackett's ship for analysis, and then find the elevator or some other mechanism to shut down the valve preventing the Crucible from firing?

Of course, I like my interpretation of that scene the best - that it was just pure dumb luck that Shepard activated the elevator to the Decision Chamber, and the Catalyst did not actually bring Shepard up there.

Well, Shepard has opened teh Citadel arms before.  And even teh second time was still concious (doesn't start fading until after Anderson dies) 

 

And Shepard "just happening" to find the switch to the elevator that has been hidden for thousands of years and just happening to go exactly where it needs to for Shepard to activate the Crucible has a definition:

 

Contrivance.

[JasonShepard]

@Iakus, Obadiah:

 

My personal interpretation of the whole "Catalyst is willing to talk, but the Reapers carry on attacking" thing? I go with the leaked script on this one - the Catalyst has already lost control of the Reapers due to the Crucible, so it can't call them off. Would have been nice for the EC to provide a line or two of dialogue along those lines though.

[Obadiah]

@Iakus
Serendipity.

[Liec]

What what the Catalyst did goes beyond simply not stopping Shepard, it physically brought Shepard to that point where the choice can be made via the Magic Space Elevator.  There is no way Shepard could have found that place on his own.

 

But did the Catalyst move the Space Elevator? That could very well be part of the chain reaction caused by the docking of the Crucible, it just didn't work instantly (to fit the last conversation with Anderson.) I mean if the Catalyst did it, why'd he ask "why are you here?"

[Farangbaa]

But did the Catalyst move the Space Elevator? That could very well be part of the chain reaction caused by the docking of the Crucible, it just didn't work instantly (to fit the last conversation with Anderson.) I mean if the Catalyst did it, why'd he ask "why are you here?"

 

e-Korsakoff's

 

edit: since when are Russian names ending in a v-sound written with double f?

[Iakus]

@Iakus, Obadiah:

 

My personal interpretation of the whole "Catalyst is willing to talk, but the Reapers carry on attacking" thing? I go with the leaked script on this one - the Catalyst has already lost control of the Reapers due to the Crucible, so it can't call them off. Would have been nice for the EC to provide a line or two of dialogue along those lines though.

Except the Catalyst outright states "I control the Reapers" not "I controled the Reapers, until the Crucible came along"

[Iakus]

But did the Catalyst move the Space Elevator? That could very well be part of the chain reaction caused by the docking of the Crucible, it just didn't work instantly (to fit the last conversation with Anderson.) I mean if the Catalyst did it, why'd he ask "why are you here?"

And if Shepard hadn't crawled over and passed out on teh exact spot for the elevator?

 

Also the Catalyst only says "Why are you here?" in low EMS endings.  Otherwise it says "Wake up"

[Deager]

But it is surreal. It feels strange to like something that others despise. I'm compelled to understand why I like it, and why others hate it. So I'm not trying to suppress these opinions; I'm trying to understand them. But it just so happens that I don't find many of them to be very persuasive. I agreed with some of them before the Extended Cut, but not anymore. 

I can understand you feeling surreal. Unfortunately, trying to understand why others dislike the endings and even why you like it typically devolves into something else on the forums.

 

To maybe give you perspective on someone who doesn't like the EC endings...well, I'm not really sure if I can do that in writing. It would best over a few beers with someone and hashing it out. But I'll try with a simple explanation.

 

I believe I got too attached to the fictional character of Commander Shepard and wanted to see her live. The long answer would have to be over those beers because once talk of the starkid, the ending results and what they mean, plot holes or perceived plot holes; that seems to always devolve into people trying to prove they're correct and nobody learning anything.

 

To me, trying to sway someone on how to think with regards to a work of fiction is fairly ridiculous. I simply like Mass Effect...granted, in a somewhat modded form with fan-fiction stuff of others and my own. But to bash someone for using mods, or liking the original endings, or liking the extended cut...no. There is no point to that.

 

For those who don't enjoy Mass Effect anymore because of, well, whatever. Bummer. Hopefully they've moved on without issue.

 

Feel free to PM me CosmicGnosis if you do want to get more perspective. I've had some great back and forths with people in the "love the endings" crowd and I've enjoyed it. Those conversations have always ended with us agreeing that we love playing Mass Effect and none of that arguing garbage takes place.