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[Eternal Phoenix]

"The maker told me to."

And that does rather smack of fanaticism.

 
Nope.
 
That's either a delusion or The Maker really did speak to her. (Personally I believe her "vision" was just a dream and that that flower sprouting from a dead bush was just a huge coincidence which - even as such - told her that even in death, there is hope and inspired her to help you)
 
Fanaticism would be "a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, especially for an extreme religious or political cause." 

 

Lelianna thinking The Maker spoke to her through a vision doesn't fit this definition. You can call her delusional because of it if you don't believe her but she still is not a fanatic and IIRC you can get her to have doubts of her vision where at which point, she still says helping you is the right path.

 

Lelianna was never single minded in Origins. Hell, she down-right admits to lusting after the Chantry sisters and still has a huge taste for fashion, singing and her home-land.

 

I'd say she's colder and more closed in Inquisition but this isn't to do with her religion. What she has seen and experienced over the years has made her this way and being tortured by mages and seeing a magical rift in the sky with demons pouring out of them is bound to make a person more colder and closed to mage apologist's constant claims that "mages are nice sexy people who would never hurt a fly." 

[MWImexico]

Eh so you can't become fanatic if you didn't born one?

I will explain that once again you aren't fanatic if you kill for money or own profit.So no killing solely doesn't make you religious fanatic same as torture doesn't make you sadist however add small factor pleasure in that case now you are sadist. Killing + strong religious motive behind it =religious fanatic. 

 

When she kills someone, I don't think it's because of her religion/faith but because she acts upon her moral code. If the true reason of the killing was religious (= I kill for the maker / andraste, my religion orders me to kill) then I would have called her a religious fanatic.

Also, in my point of vue, Anders and Fenris are somehow closer to fanaticism than her. When Anders asks Hawke to kill Trask so the mages from Starkhaven can run away, he's so set on his beliefs that he's blinded by them. He says something like : "what's the life of a templar in comparaison of freeing innocent mages?". And Fenris is pretty much as blind when he disapproves of letting Ella run away after her aggression (I think he should have at least have some doubts  before wanting to send her back to the place where she was abused). Their convictions are strong to the point that sometime they act in a way that seems irrational or not totaly fitting with the context and the reality of the situation.

And yeah, Petrice was a good exemple.

[TheKomandorShepard]

When she kills someone, I don't think it's because of her religion/faith but because she acts upon her moral code. If the true reason of the killing was religious (= I kill for the maker / andraste, my religion orders me to kill) then I would have called her a religious fanatic.

Also, in my point of vue, Anders and Fenris are somehow closer to fanaticism than her. When Anders asks Hawke to kill Trask so the mages from Starkhaven can run away, he's so set on his beliefs that he's blinded by them. He says something like : "what's the life of a templar in comparaison of freeing innocent mages?". And Fenris is pretty much as blind when he disapproves of letting Ella run away after her aggression (I think he should have at least have some doubts  before wanting to send her back to the place where she was abused). Their convictions are strong to the point that sometime they act in a way that seems irrational or not totaly fitting with the context and the reality of the situation.

And yeah, Petrice was a good exemple.

She works/kills for religious organization and maker (god) is stated most important thing to her and her reason for what she is doing.About moral code funnily it still can make you fanatic just not religous. 

 

About Anders and Fenris well i agree about Anders he was/is fanatic but fenris isn't he rly isn't doing anything about it and don't claim moral superiority like anders and leliana.I would call fenris whiner than fanatic.

[Medhia_Nox]

The very nature of how she explains her vision is totally not fanatical.  She says it's a dream - she says there was no booming voice.  

 

She states clearly that her relationship with the Maker is tied to her experience of nature and feeling.  

 

I personally think her description was not of the Blight - but of whatever Zenovia and Sandal speak.   

 

Leliana:  "There was a great darkness that threatened to consume everything..." 

 

Zinovia:  "The prison is breached, I see the encroaching darkness. The shadow will consume all..." 

 

Sanda:  "The shadows will part and the skies will open wide." 

 

Zinovia and Sandal receive visions (which we have been told are true) - that doesn't mean they're from "The Maker".  Liliana could have received her vision from the same source and simply ascribed it to her chosen deity. 
 

[Nukekitten]

Nope.
 
That's either a delusion or The Maker really did speak to her. (Personally I believe her "vision" was just a dream and that that flower sprouting from a dead bush was just a huge coincidence which - even as such - told her that even in death, there is hope and inspired her to help you)
 
Fanaticism would be "a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, especially for an extreme religious or political cause." 
 
Lelianna thinking The Maker spoke to her through a vision doesn't fit this definition. You can call her delusional because of it if you don't believe her but she still is not a fanatic and IIRC you can get her to have doubts of her vision where at which point, she still says helping you is the right path.
 
Lelianna was never single minded in Origins. Hell, she down-right admits to lusting after the Chantry sisters and still has a huge taste for fashion, singing and her home-land.
 
I'd say she's colder and more closed in Inquisition but this isn't to do with her religion. What she has seen and experienced over the years has made her this way and being tortured by mages and seeing a magical rift in the sky with demons pouring out of them is bound to make a person more colder and closed to mage apologist's constant claims that "mages are nice sexy people who would never hurt a fly." 

Hmm hmm hmm. I agree with you that the vision itself wasn't fanaticism.

What worries me is what resulted from the vision: a rather single minded devotion to your cause. It goes to the point of failing to back up her own views in all but the most extreme of examples.

Attempt to slaughter children? She won't do anything, she'll say you shouldn't do it, but at the end of the day she's right there alongside you slaughtering an old woman to get at the children hiding behind her. Someone that she herself states seems to be a good person. Because The Maker told her to follow you.

Don't you find that at least somewhat troubling? Doesn't it seem to you like someone subsuming their moral centre to a single cause? What more of herself does she have to sacrifice to that faith before she becomes a fanatic?

[Medhia_Nox]

Nukekitten:  No more troubling than all the other mass murdering psychos in your party including the protagonist. 

 

That we single out Leliana is just a bias. 

[Neon Rising Winter]

Nukekitten:  No more troubling than all the other mass murdering psychos in your party including the protagonist. 

 

That we single out Leliana is just a bias. 

It's an irregular adjective as opposed to an irregular verb.

 

I am heroic.

You are overzealous.

He/She is fanatic.

[Nukekitten]

Nukekitten:  No more troubling than all the other mass murdering psychos in your party including the protagonist. 
 
That we single out Leliana is just a bias.

I don't disagree with you that the other party members have a collection of rather unattractive traits in this regard. Though I'd hesitate to describe all of them as fanatics - as I mentioned in my original post on the subject:
 

Of course other members of your party kill who you tell them to too. But not so much because of a belief in an external thing but because they're too weak to oppose you, Alistair; too amoral to care one way or the other, Morrigan, Zevran; also fanatics, Sten....

Whether you find flaws of weakness or self-centredness more forgiveable than those of fanaticism I don't know. A lot of them are just... If I met them IRL I'd want to get away from them as fast as possible ;

[TheKomandorShepard]

Nukekitten:  No more troubling than all the other mass murdering psychos in your party including the protagonist. 

 

That we single out Leliana is just a bias. 

Well to be honest we have no idea whether protagonist kills opponents as even if you "kill" someone in gameplay they may be alive like in some cases.Not mention that most peoples you fight attacks you on sight rest is optional.In fact there is even conversation with zevran where you can say that you kill only darkspawn how interpret that is up to you. 

[DaySeeker]

One can do things AND be religious, without doing everything BECAUSE they are religious.  Leilanna is no killing children, that is hyperbole not example.  Lelianna is notdoing insane or immoral things because her religion tells her so.  Believing in a theology does not make one a fanatic.  Leilana does not try to convert you or anyone else, she is not blindly taking orders from a sky voice or religious figure.  She is thoughtful and rational and religious.  

[TheKomandorShepard]

One can do things AND be religious, without doing everything BECAUSE they are religious.  Leilanna is no killing children, that is hyperbole not example.  Lelianna is notdoing insane or immoral things because her religion tells her so.  Believing in a theology does not make one a fanatic.  Leilana does not try to convert you or anyone else, she is not blindly taking orders from a sky voice or religious figure.  She is thoughtful and rational and religious.  

 "Lelianna is notdoing insane or immoral things because her religion tells her so"

How do you know?

" she is not blindly taking orders from a sky voice or religious figure.  She is thoughtful and rational and religious."

Wait wait do we talk about same leliana well i speak about one that was send to kill templars and free mages what caused mage-templar war.

[MWImexico]

She works/kills for religious organization and maker (god) is stated most important thing to her and her reason for what she is doing.About moral code funnily it still can make you fanatic just not religous. 

 

.... (this is just ...O_o What moral superiority has to do with fanatism?)

 

Hence the exemple I gave about Anders and Fenris. Working for a religious organisation doesn't make her a fanatic. As for her work as spy, you still didn't gave an argument proving that her motivations are what you suggest they are.

This is what is said about her on the oficial site :
"She has many names. Most know her as "Sister Nightingale” or “the Left Hand of the Divine.” To the rare friend, she is Leliana. They say she found faith amid darkness, and that her devotion to the Maker is matched only by her devotion to Divine Justinia V, a woman who is both mentor and savior. Those who have earned her loyalty know her as a steadfast ally. But enemies of the Divine know to fear her, for she is the shadow behind the Sunburst Throne—the one who watches and waits, who strikes when her mark is most vulnerable and least suspecting."

They are talking about devotion, not fanatism.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Hence the exemple I gave about Anders and Fenris. Working for a religious organisation doesn't make her a fanatic. As for her work as spy, you still didn't gave an argument proving that her motivations are what you suggest they are.

This is what is said about her on the oficial site :
"She has many names. Most know her as "Sister Nightingale” or “the Left Hand of the Divine.” To the rare friend, she is Leliana. They say she found faith amid darkness, and that her devotion to the Maker is matched only by her devotion to Divine Justinia V, a woman who is both mentor and savior. Those who have earned her loyalty know her as a steadfast ally. But enemies of the Divine know to fear her, for she is the shadow behind the Sunburst Throne—the one who watches and waits, who strikes when her mark is most vulnerable and least suspecting."

They are talking about devotion, not fanatism.

Eh and again she is killing for her religion and god don't try paint her as nice chantry sister that work for religious organisation.Devoted can be chantry sister when to devoted you will add violent (like leliana and petrice) it is fanaticism.Of course it is little more complex than my verison but it is pretty much like that in that case.

[Nukekitten]

One can do things AND be religious, without doing everything BECAUSE they are religious.  Leilanna is no killing children, that is hyperbole not example.  Lelianna is notdoing insane or immoral things because her religion tells her so.  Believing in a theology does not make one a fanatic.  Leilana does not try to convert you or anyone else, she is not blindly taking orders from a sky voice or religious figure.

 
What do you think the outcome is going to be from a decision to dissolve the circle and kill all the mages? That they kill all the mages apart from the children? She's right alongside you killing Wynne in the dissolution of the Ferelden Circle if you choose to go that route.
 
Alistair: We should gain a better understanding of the situation before rushing in; pointy end of sword first
Warden: This circle must be destroyed, for all our sakes.
Wynne: If you insist on making war upon the Circle, we have nothing more to discuss. It comes to blows, then.
Alistair: No, stop! You can't just attack her. She's protected the children; she's not the one we should be wary of!
Leliana: Alistair is right! She seems to be a good person, and she knows this tower.
Warden: Shut your mouth and fall in line.
Wynne: I will stop you, or die trying.

And then Leliana helps you kill someone that she's just acknowledged seems to be a good person. Someone who she's just spoken in favour of allowing to live.

Of course you can do things while being religious without doing them because you are religious. But since L. says, when you meet her, that she wants to go along with you because of a vision from The Maker, I don't think that's how it works out here. She's already told us that she's with us because of her religion.

[MWImexico]

... don't try paint her as nice chantry sister ...

 

Yeah, because that's exactly what I was trying to do

I guess I'll have to forfeit on this one, the power of your arguments have convinced me...

[Reznore57]

They are talking about devotion, not fanatism.

 

We don't know if Leliana is able to have a critical view when she's enthralled by someone/something.

Can she be critical of the Maker , or the Divine?

There is devotion and then there is being blind.She was blind with Marjolaine, for example.

Which doesn't mean she'll always have to be like that of course .

But I'm worried.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yeah, because that's exactly what I was trying to do

I guess I'll have to forfeit on this one, the power of your arguments have convinced me...

You tried paint her simple as person that works for religious organization (as i ever said it does) pretty much whitening what she is doing.

 

Wha i hope you are joking because otherwise balance in the universe has been shaken.

[Heimdall]

A lot of people don't seem to actually understand what fanatic means...

[Medhia_Nox]

@TheKomandorShepard:  She isn't a nice Chantry sister.  Her relationship with the Chantry is tenuous at best - which is "my" entire point (might not be others).

 

She admits openly that her true calling is being a Bard. 

 

She's a bard for one of the most powerful people in Orlais.  That's not fanatical at all.  That's just good business practice for her. 

 

@Heimdall:  I think this is the current definition on the thread.  Fanatic:  One who does things while having an affiliation with a religion and is a character I dislike.

[DaySeeker]

We don't know if Leliana is able to have a critical view when she's enthralled by someone/something.

Can she be critical of the Maker , or the Divine?

There is devotion and then there is being blind.She was blind with Marjolaine, for example.

Which doesn't mean she'll always have to be like that of course .

But I'm worried.

 

Being deceived by someone you trust and love is not being blind.  Marjorline purposefully deceived Leiliana who has grown since that time.  We have seen L be critical of the Chantry and we have seen some of Justina's decisions and L's representation of her, none of these were irrational or fanatical power grabs- all have been to support existing secular power structures.

 

The Circle Tower example I don't find appropriate, one: the tower is a mess and full of abominations, L could be acting on that as well as the fact she needs to protect those outside the tower from the abominations and blight, two: she does not have to behave that way, she didn't in my playthroughs, therefore ascribing that decision to fanaticism doesn't work, also the fact that she voices concern over just pulling out her bow shows independent thought.

[TheKomandorShepard]

@TheKomandorShepard:  She isn't a nice Chantry sister.  Her relationship with the Chantry is tenuous at best - which is "my" entire point (might not be others).

 

She admits openly that her true calling is being a Bard. 

 

She's a bard for one of the most powerful people in Orlais.  That's not fanatical at all.  That's just good business practice for her. 

 

@Heimdall:  I think this is the current definition on the thread.  Fanatic:  One who does things while having an affiliation with a religion and is a character I dislike.

Ehh i responded on that argument so many times that i can only send you to my previous comments.

 

Besides making negative comments about character or criticism of the character doesn't mean that someone dislike character and even if someone dislike characater does't mean person is wrong so "how dare you speak something bad about {insert name here} you say that because you don't like her/him" don't work.

 

 

Being deceived by someone you trust and love is not being blind.  Marjorline purposefully deceived Leiliana who has grown since that time.  We have seen L be critical of the Chantry and we have seen some of Justina's decisions and L's representation of her, none of these were irrational or fanatical power grabs- all have been to support existing secular power structures.

 

 

I don't know how to respond to that how it isn't being blind?Not to mention that she was dating psycho-bard who lives by betray and intrigue so it only make it worse.Hell even my warden can lie her that s/he didn't bed morrigan with cheapest lie ever how it isn't being blind? 

[MWImexico]

But I'm worried.

 

Why? Well, I suppose she will try to defend the chantry, of course, according to her beliefs.

[General TSAR]

A lot of people don't seem to actually understand what fanatic means...

I suspect projection of real world bias.

[Maeshone]

 "Lelianna is notdoing insane or immoral things because her religion tells her so"

How do you know?

" she is not blindly taking orders from a sky voice or religious figure.  She is thoughtful and rational and religious."

Wait wait do we talk about same leliana well i speak about one that was send to kill templars and free mages what caused mage-templar war.

You still haven't provided a good explanation for how that makes her a fanatic, other than "the Divine told her, so obviously she's a fanatic". While I have not read Asunder (It's on my list), shouldn't killing templars make her the opposite of a fanatic? The templars broke away from the Chantry to hunt mages just for being mages. Those are fanatics. You also have not provided proof that she follows orders without questioning them.

[Gtdef]

Leliana has a romantic notion of the Maker and the faith and that's apparent in DAO. Everyone we know is a killer in the games. In my opinion if anyone could be described as a fanatic that would be Sebastian. He seems to have a very fleshed out view on what it means to be a "TRUE" servant of the maker. And this is where I believe lines are getting skewed. But ultimately he isn't. He just tries too hard which is the main reason I don't like him.

 

I believe that the problem here is the definition of the word fanatic. My definition is that he thinks he has everything figured out. feels his actions are justified because a higher power (either god or an idea) enables him to do what he does. Also he is a coward and he hides to not get caught, not because he cares about secrecy. After all he wants to send a message.

 

Using my definition, I consider Petrice a fanatic but not Leliana. Petrice feels righteous but she doesn't get her hands dirty. Instead manipulates those that turn to her for guidance and this makes her a coward. She cares more about misleading and making the others seem bad, than actually showing why she is good. She is willing to do anything to shift blame and implicate others. She is the epitome of a person that has everything figured out and views people as expendable and pawns to help her send her message even if that means war.

 

Leliana is the complete opposite. She cares about secrecy, because her actions are political in nature and are a means to prevent conflict. She doesn't care what her target is as long as it's an enemy of the organization and her personal friend. She will spy on and assassinate all the enemies of the Divine so she can play the "game" as she sees fit. I haven't seen an instance where she tries to justify her actions using higher ideas. Instead, she is perfectly fine with sacrificing herself to battle a greater evil and attributing this to the Maker. She may be crazy, but she is selfless and brave. I can't see why some people believe the demo has changed that. 

 

Someone may argue that Leliana's enemies aren't that different from Petrice's enemies. But I don't think that's correct. The qunari didn't try to convert anyone, they weren't aggressive. Her enemies were the people that left the Maker and converted to the Qun. So she blamed the Qunari for this just because they existed. 

 

Tbh, I find this discussion more difficult than I originally thought. In my mind it's obvious that Leliana isn't a fanatic, but I can't find good words to explain this. I'm sure that a lot of people will disagree with my post. Perhaps it's the fact that when we speak of fanatics in real life it's not a stretch to presume that a killer is a fanatic. But in a fictional world where most conflict usually ends in death, it's harder to distinguish these lines.