I dont think the Qunari were cast in a good light at all, they kinda came off as damn purple horned commies to me 
I mean a society that basically determines that so and so will lead and this other so and so will be a peon because the Qun
I mean with outsiders it was kinda like
I'd actually like the Qun if it weren't for the 'We will force everyone to convert or die'
That is the part of the Qun that makes me physically sick and makes me want to kill them. Their culture not only is unable to see any other society as an equal or even as valid but they have to destroy every society and force everyone to be apart of them or die.
That is madness
That is madness
No, that is the most rational way of life.
No, that is the most rational way of life.
Wow.
Their culture not only is unable to see any other society as an equal or even as valid but they have to destroy every society and force everyone to be apart of them or die.
It's kind of ironic since if you accept the Qun then all are shown respect regardless of race. Elves, human, qunari all are of the Qun. A thing that is non existent in other cultures of Thedas.
It's kind of ironic since if you accept the Qun then all are shown respect regardless of race.
Unless you're a mage, and then it's the needle and thread for you.
It's kind of ironic since if you accept the Qun then all are shown respect regardless of race. Elves, human, qunari all are of the Qun. A thing that is non existent in other cultures of Thedas.
You're just unequal in all other matters, namely what place you're in, not to mention you are segregated by gender. The best female fighter could never be, and the best male governor could never be.
That is madness
Madness, madness?? THIS. IS . SPARTA! ( sorry, couldn't resist) 
but on topic: qun bad...booh
The Qunari aren't perfect, but they are very idealised. The only flaws they're allowed are the ones that fit the "Order vs Freedom".
Something like this. The Qunari are from depicted as a utopia, but the implications/insinuations that it works as well as it does are an idealization of sorts.
The biggest part for me is that the ability and judgement of the priesthood hasn't been called into question. Pretty much everyone we meet from the Qun accepts the legitimacy and accuracy of the 'you are suited for this job.' That's... not really plausible, and though we certainly lack dissidents to interview I imagine that many of the disaffected would be envious or confident that they were better suited for job X than job Y that they're now stuck for life.
The biggest weakness of any aptitude evaluation system is in determining and applying aptitude.
And then there's the whole matter of hormones and sexuality. But I'm willing to wait to see if the Qunari issue out anti-libido drugs to keep people platonic.
And yes, the anti-Qunari options in DA2 all sucked. I'm a touch concerned by the Iron Bull interview, because it definitely seemed to frame people having a problem with the Qun as unreasonable.
I haven't read that so far. If anything, I got the impression that Iron Bull is dancing around confronting his feelings for the Qun, which he likes in concept even as he revels in a lifestyle the Qun would not allow.
Something like this. The Qunari are from depicted as a utopia, but the implications/insinuations that it works as well as it does are an idealization of sorts.
The biggest part for me is that the ability and judgement of the priesthood hasn't been called into question. Pretty much everyone we meet from the Qun accepts the legitimacy and accuracy of the 'you are suited for this job.' That's... not really plausible, and though we certainly lack dissidents to interview I imagine that many of the disaffected would be envious or confident that they were better suited for job X than job Y that they're now stuck for life.
The biggest weakness of any aptitude evaluation system is in determining and applying aptitude.
And then there's the whole matter of hormones and sexuality. But I'm willing to wait to see if the Qunari issue out anti-libido drugs to keep people platonic.
Well, since Iron Bull's proven that the qunari race isn't naturally immune to hormones, it ties into my theory that the entire Qun is some kind of blood magic-based contrivance to weld everyone into a semi-hive mind.
My biggest annoyance with the Qunari is that anytime someone objects to how they operate in some form(how they treat mages as an examples) the Qunari in question tells them they are wrong, while explaining how wrong they are.
Talis was the worst at this.
Well, since Iron Bull's proven that the qunari race isn't naturally immune to hormones, it ties into my theory that the entire Qun is some kind of blood magic-based contrivance to weld everyone into a semi-hive mind.
Magic seems unlikely. Anti-viagra would be far more appropriate (and fits what we know about their brainwashing concoctions).
Well, since Iron Bull's proven that the qunari race isn't naturally immune to hormones, it ties into my theory that the entire Qun is some kind of blood magic-based contrivance to weld everyone into a semi-hive mind.
I'm not sure Iron Bull was needed to prove this (well, in the context of needing to see a hormonal kossith*in the game, yeah, of course he was). Mary Kirby has already said that some Qunari **** out of love (and get harassed by the fantasy Gestapo, of course). It pains me to defend the plausibility of anything about Qunari society, but I'm not sure why they'd need blood magic for this, anyway. Totalitarian societies have existed before, and plenty more societies which place restrictions on recreational sex and love relationships have as well.
I expect Qunari society doesn't work nearly as well/efficiently as its true believers think it does, but we'll see.
*I really love calling them that
Grrrrr....Petrice. Vile woman.
Very useful woman as a matter of fact.
Well, since Iron Bull's proven that the qunari race isn't naturally immune to hormones, it ties into my theory that the entire Qun is some kind of blood magic-based contrivance to weld everyone into a semi-hive mind.
Still no concrete or even circumstantial evidence.
Well, since Iron Bull's proven that the qunari race isn't naturally immune to hormones, it ties into my theory that the entire Qun is some kind of blood magic-based contrivance to weld everyone into a semi-hive mind.
Uhh, I'm pretty sure it's just a rigid brainwashing totalitarian ideology.
You don't need blood magic to make people that, for the lack of a better word, devout in an ideology.
Uhh, I'm pretty sure it's just a rigid brainwashing totalitarian ideology.
You don't need blood magic to make people that, for the lack of a better word, devout in an ideology.
Exactly, all you have to do is look at best Korea.
Unless you're a mage, and then it's the needle and thread for you.
Actually they're shown the most respect and willingly accept that they must be leashed due to their potential of being "dangerous". They live rough lives but are in no way looked down upon
Oy, so much misunderstanding in here, must correct.
The Qunari society is in no way presented as perfect, it represents the sacrifice of free will in order to attain a perfectly functional economy. That in many peoples eyes is the opposite of perfect.
Their biggest advantage is their work ethic which you can argue is near perfect, but as a society, it is not perfect in any way. Their policy with mages and those who dont follow the qun are just two major examples. If it were a utopia, wouldnt people be flocking to join them?
You don't sacrifice free will, you accept your place in life or you don't. While I know this doesn't gel with our cultural understanding of free will, to them it makes perfect sense. Interpreting our society through a Qunari lens, someone who was raised in a working-class family and thus had aptitude for working-class jobs, but decided to become a scholar is not accepting their place in life. They're making the choice. It's the wrong choice, but they're still making it. The dichotomy of accepting a successful path or rejecting it for an unsuccessful one is not imposed by them or the Qun, it is simply the nature of reality. Having institutions which compel individuals to accept successful paths is simply helping them to better themselves, like when high school counselors try to help you pick a career. Obviously Qunari society is more restrictive, but they see allowing a farmer to be a soldier the same way we would see encouraging someone who has trouble doing basic math to be an accountant.
I don't know that their work ethic is perfect so much as every follower of the Qun accepts their task and their place in life. You can still be a bad craftsman in Qunari society, you just can't change professions if you don't think it's your cup of tea. The main benefit of the Qun is that it gives order and structure, whereas in Kirkwall everyone just tries to make money any way they can, by hook or crook.
Also, people did seem to be flocking to them in northern Rivain. The locals there still follow the Qun even though the main Qunari body has left.
So much about the Qunari annoys me, but I think they're portrayed as flawed. Sometimes I was a little disappointed with some protagonist dialogue options in conversations with Sten, the Arishok, and especially that tool Saemus, but whatever. I do wish my character could spend 100% of their time spewing fanatical anti-communist froth, but I understand that's not completely realistic or practical.
I expect the Inquisitor will be able to oppose them on grounds on other than that they're heathens, since the Inquisitor can be Dalish, vashoth, or dwarven - not necessarily Andrastian by default.
The Qunari's communism doesn't really come up much in the games, at least not from what I remember. I actually had to look up how their economy worked on the wiki. At any rate, most of what Sten and the Arishok say isn't outright communist. Communist would refer to their distribution of goods, not their caste system or their social stratification. Yes, they have a communal society, but you can have a communally-minded society without being communist. In fact, the Qun is largely based on Japanese Shinto and Bushido, and Japanese society is generally regarded as communal even though they practice free market economics.
In Origins you could very clearly point out the flaws of the Qun in your dialogue with Sten. Sten's only response is 'that's the way it is', which is more in line with circular reasoning than actual logic (meaning he can't really defend what he believes other than the fact that he believes it).
I think DA2 speaks for itself in the way Ketojan was treated and the fact that they looked to make war (manipulating/corrupting Seamus, taking in elven defectors). I wouldn't be surprised if they supplied the elven fanatic with saar-qamek only to make it look like it was stolen to appease Hawke and the rest.
To a Qunari, people like Hawke and the Warden insisting that allowing people to choose different professions because it is intrinsically better is responding with "that's the way it is."
"Sorry I'm still lost at the deny an die part..." - Sarcastic Hawke
I admire their sense of honor and duty, but a I take issues with their fatalism, lack of individuality and need to convert everyone.
And they have a problem with Thedas' rampant individuality. As for the need to convert everyone, they seem to have stopped the war with Thedas in part because of the civilians lives that were being lost. The Arishok confirms this when he says the treaty was a formality he honors for now.
I think the writer's definitely want the Qunari to be complex. and interesting. But I never for once saw them as being protrayed as perfect. Far from it. They're supposed to be aliens, weird foreigners from mysterious lands across the see. Islam to Thedas's Christendom (in the Middle Ages sense, The Qun and Islam don't resemble each other).
As an aside: Anyone else planning to play a reaaaaally Anti-Qun Vashoth in one of their play-throughs?
Actually, when the Ottomans and Catholics were waging crusades across the middle east Byzantine citizens who came under occupation actually had more in common with Muslims than with Catholics. There's far more of an East/West divide than there is a Muslim/Christian one. But yes, eastern culture does seem strange to the point of being incomprehensible at times to westerners, and I think BW captured that well with the Qunari. I think a lot of people are having a hard time appreciating that the Qunari just have a radically different culture than the rest of Thedas (read: our own culture).
I just get tired of each and every one of them refuting any possible argument for Thedosian society with what essentially equates to a "lol nope". I get why most of them do respond that way, but it's still terribly frustrating when some of the prominent qunari we meet take every opportunity to point out how everything about the rest of Thedas is wrong.
Don't Hawke and the Warden do the same thing?
Try telling that to the Qunari and their "everyone else is living wrong, so we'll force them to live like us or die"
Like I said before, they seem to have stopped their invasion specifically because it was costing Theodosian lives. Yes, they want to convert all of Thedas, but they don't want the choice to be that or die. They want to hold off the militants while allowing as many as possible to be converted. As people pointed out numerous times in DA2, if the Arishok wanted to invade he would just do it. He didn't invade at first because he wanted to convert as many as possible, and when they threatened his converts then he invaded. Their goal is betterment of everyone (even if the Qun doesn't necessarily lead to betterment, they see it that way), which is hard to achieve when everyone is dead. It's their duty to fight and take losses in order to get more converts. I suspect that if they wanted to wipe every non-Qunari off the face of the earth they could have done so, or at least made one hell of an attempt.
Exactly, all you have to do is look at best Korea.
That's a ridiculous comparison. North Korean ideology emerged as a cult of personality centered around one man and his descendants, so basically as an excuse for egomaniacs to take power. The Qun, on the other hand, is an ideology centered around a natural order of the world and optimizing one's life to best fit into that order, making it far more evocative of Daoism and Confucianism in that regard. Granted, it is far more authoritarian, but keep in mind that caste systems not only survived but thrived for thousands of years. To say the Qunari system doesn't work, well so far they seem to have produced a far more advanced society than the rest of Thedas combined (naval warfare, military warfare, weapons development, etc.)
You don't sacrifice free will, you accept your place in life or you don't. While I know this doesn't gel with our cultural understanding of free will, to them it makes perfect sense. Interpreting our society through a Qunari lens, someone who was raised in a working-class family and thus had aptitude for working-class jobs, but decided to become a scholar is not accepting their place in life. They're making the choice. It's the wrong choice, but they're still making it. The dichotomy of accepting a successful path or rejecting it for an unsuccessful one is not imposed by them or the Qun, it is simply the nature of reality. Having institutions which compel individuals to accept successful paths is simply helping them to better themselves, like when high school counselors try to help you pick a career. Obviously Qunari society is more restrictive, but they see allowing a farmer to be a soldier the same way we would see encouraging someone who has trouble doing basic math to be an accountant.
I don't know that their work ethic is perfect so much as every follower of the Qun accepts their task and their place in life. You can still be a bad craftsman in Qunari society, you just can't change professions if you don't think it's your cup of tea. The main benefit of the Qun is that it gives order and structure, whereas in Kirkwall everyone just tries to make money any way they can, by hook or crook.
Also, people did seem to be flocking to them in northern Rivain. The locals there still follow the Qun even though the main Qunari body has left.
Um yes, accepting that you must be in an area that suits the community's needs rather than what interests you, is sacrificing free will for the good of the people. You're going off on unnecessary tangents.
Thats one instance in one area, thats not the point. If the qun was perfect more than just one small nation would be rushing to join them and there would be little to no Tal Vashoth.
Was all this really necessary? Especially since it didnt change anything that i said
Um yes, accepting that you must be in an area that suits the community's needs rather than what interests you, is sacrificing free will for the good of the people. You're going off on unnecessary tangents.
Thats one instance in one area, thats not the point. If the qun was perfect more than just one small nation would be rushing to join them and there would be little to no Tal Vashoth.
Was all this really necessary? Especially since it didnt change anything that i said
According to your particular cultural viewpoint. As I said, from their perspective allowing people to choose professions is just as silly as a high school counselor trying to get a kid to follow a career he knows they won't be very successful in. What the Ben-Hassreth do, to them, is no different than what high school counselors do, they're just more forceful about it (and they would say more effective). If you're sitting in the middle of a lake you can eventually drown from just sitting there for too long. You can choose to stay in the lake and die or you can choose to swim to shore and live, one is obviously the better choice. That's how they view careers, there is a better choice for everyone. Forcing them to make the better choice simply betters their life the same way a high school counselor steering a student away from a profession they are unlikely to succeed at betters their life. And they can always choose to abandon the Qun.
It's not one instance, in every Theodosian settlement there is greed and poverty. The Qunari believe this is due in large part to allowing people to take whatever path they choose whether it's the right path or not. I'm not saying they're right, I'm just saying Qunari society is very structured compared to Theodosian society.
And besides, there are people in today's society who say people should be going to tech schools instead of college or that students shouldn't be getting liberal arts degrees or that we need to get more kids into STEM disciplines, isn't that the same thing as saying people should be in an area that suits the community's needs rather than what interests them?
As to Rivain, your argument is basically an ad populum fallacy.
According to your particular cultural viewpoint. As I said, from their perspective allowing people to choose professions is just as silly as a high school counselor trying to get a kid to follow a career he knows they won't be very successful in. What the Ben-Hassreth do, to them, is no different than what high school counselors do, they're just more forceful about it (and they would say more effective). If you're sitting in the middle of a lake you can eventually drown from just sitting there for too long. You can choose to stay in the lake and die or you can choose to swim to shore and live, one is obviously the better choice. That's how they view careers, there is a better choice for everyone. Forcing them to make the better choice simply betters their life the same way a high school counselor steering a student away from a profession they are unlikely to succeed at betters their life. And they can always choose to abandon the Qun.
It's not one instance, in every Theodosian settlement there is greed and poverty. The Qunari believe this is due in large part to allowing people to take whatever path they choose whether it's the right path or not. I'm not saying they're right, I'm just saying Qunari society is very structured compared to Theodosian society.
And besides, there are people in today's society who say people should be going to tech schools instead of college or that students shouldn't be getting liberal arts degrees or that we need to get more kids into STEM disciplines, isn't that the same thing as saying people should be in an area that suits the community's needs rather than what interests them?
As to Rivain, your argument is basically an ad populum fallacy.
Again you're going on so many tangents you completely avoid the point of what i said, not even addressing it. You're just telling me what i already know of Qunari culture.
How is the argument an ad populum? Look up the definition and make sure thats the proper phrase you meant to accuse me of because it makes no sense in context to what im saying.
Again you're going on so many tangents you completely avoid the point of what i said, not even addressing it. You're just telling me what i already know of Qunari culture.
How is the argument an ad populum? Look up the definition and make sure thats the proper phrase you meant to accuse me of because it makes no sense in context to what im saying.
No, you said the Qunari restrict freedom of choice and I told you that they don't view it that way, using analogies to illustrate why. I directly addressed your point.
You're arguing that the fact that most Theodosians don't convert is indicative of some failing with the Qunari philosophy, that is an ad populum argument.
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