426 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Good for you, i guess. Cool that you don't mind being stuck behind the character all the time, but a lot of us want to actually plan our moves and we need a good overview for that. If you think you way is the future of gaming then that's good for you, there are a ton of games that you can play, but don't try and take the few tactical games that we do have away from us.

 

Not really, at least not with a good story. Inquisition and the Witcher 3 are all I count, in terms of action RPGs with a good story. Iso players are getting more options than us right now. I don't think fans of either gameplay style should be feeling threatened, but it's strange for iso players especially to be paranoid in 2014.

[AlanC9]

Good for you, i guess. Cool that you don't mind being stuck behind the character all the time, but a lot of us want to actually plan our moves and we need a good overview for that. If you think you way is the future of gaming then that's good for you, there are a ton of games that you can play, but don't try and take the few tactical games that we do have away from us.

I've always found it a little funny that RPGs ever became associated with planned combat and top-down views. You've got information your character couldn't have, and are making decisions he couldn't make.

[AlanC9]

Not really, at least not with a good story. Inquisition and the Witcher 3 are all I count, in terms of action RPGs with a good story. Iso players are getting more options than us right now. I don't think fans of either gameplay style should be feeling threatened, but it's strange for iso players especially to be paranoid in 2014.

What iso titles are you referring to? I'm no fan of that view, so I probably just haven't been paying attention when this is talked about.

[Amaror]

Not really, at least not with a good story. Inquisition and the Witcher 3 are all I count, in terms of action RPGs with a good story. Iso players are getting more options than us right now. I don't think fans of either gameplay style should be feeling threatened, but it's strange for iso players especially to be paranoid in 2014.

hm? There are barely and iso-games that have been released. 

third-person rpgs though? Skyrim, Risen 2, The Witcher 2, Two Worlds 2, Dark Souls 1, Dark Souls 2, Dragons Dogma

[AllThatJazz]

hm? There are barely and iso-games that have been released. 

third-person rpgs though? Skyrim, Risen 2, The Witcher 2, Two Worlds 2, Dark Souls 1, Dark Souls 2, Dragons Dogma

 The Torchlight games, Diablo games, Shadowrun Returns and SR: Dragonfall, Divinity:OS, Van Helsing 1&2, Transistor, Eschalon Saga, Blackguards, The Banner Saga, Inquisitor - all these have had pretty recent releases. Then Wasteland 2, Dead State, Eternity and Age of Decadence this year sometime or early next. Also the enhanced editions of the BG games. Sounds like it's a pretty golden time for top-down/iso RPGs to me.

[Deflagratio]

hm? There are barely and iso-games that have been released. 

third-person rpgs though? Skyrim, Risen 2, The Witcher 2, Two Worlds 2, Dark Souls 1, Dark Souls 2, Dragons Dogma

 

 

Skyrim, like all Elder Scrolls games, is a First-Person RPG that has a Third Person option.

 

Even with the third person option, Skyrim's world is built to be seen through the First Person perspective, which is why they use a lot of horizon breakers to draw players into content. The iconic look of the Nordic Arches poking out of a mountain or hill are the most obvious example.

[Kinthalis ThornBlade]

I've always found it a little funny that RPGs ever became associated with planned combat and top-down views. You've got information your character couldn't have, and are making decisions he couldn't make.

 

It's the other way around. With a purely third person or first person game you are limited artificially by the perspective.

 

In real life my eyes move independent of my head, my peripheral vision and head + eye movement can cover MUCH more than most first person perspectives (especially on consoles where the FOV is a claustrophobic < 75 degrees!). It's also not necessary for me to keep my eyes on something for me to be able to tell if something is standing still or moving. I can HEAR them move, my brain calculates trajectories and posits likely locations of objects from the moment I last saw them till the moment I see them again. The olfactory sense, as mentioned above, can also help in this.

 

So it's not unrealistic to see things being represented around you, so long as you stand a reasonable chance of knowing they were there. And almost all such games include things like line of sight that's obscured by walls, objects, smoke, etc. As well as ways of dealing with creatures trying to hide or that are invisible.

 

In other words, it's no more or less realistic than someone swinging a sword through your character and you only taking 10 pts of damage. It's a gameplay based abstraction that the game makes. Nothing more, nothing less.

[CronoDragoon]

hm? There are barely and iso-games that have been released. 

third-person rpgs though? Skyrim, Risen 2, The Witcher 2, Two Worlds 2, Dark Souls 1, Dark Souls 2, Dragons Dogma

 

I was referring more to 2014-2015, hence my "in 2014". But Dragon's Dogma has an awful story. Dark Souls players seem to enjoy the minimalist take on story-telling so I'll give you that. See AllThatJazz's post for iso games.

[Kinthalis ThornBlade]

 The Torchlight games, Diablo games, Shadowrun Returns and SR: Dragonfall, Divinity:OS, Van Helsing 1&2, Transistor, Eschalon Saga, Blackguards, The Banner Saga, Inquisitor - all these have had pretty recent releases. Then Wasteland 2, Dead State, Eternity and Age of Decadence this year sometime or early next. Also the enhanced editions of the BG games. Sounds like it's a pretty golden time for top-down/iso RPGs to me.

 

Don't forget Path of Exile for recent releases as well.

[Elhanan]

I've always found it a little funny that RPGs ever became associated with planned combat and top-down views. You've got information your character couldn't have, and are making decisions he couldn't make.

Yet the AI opposition knows the weaknesses of the party. The battle becomes more strategic and tactical on both sides, rather than one-sided encounters.

What I prefer is having something like Survival skill, or something akin to the Fog of War partially obscure the field unless the party has intel, ability, skill, etc to overcome that barrier. And it seems that DAI will also have some form of advanced recon info system in place for that choose those implementations. While it will never be perfect, I do like strides to make the game as accommodating to each indv Player as possible, and Bioware seems to have included at least three options here.

[Brogan]

Yup.

 

And if having played BG means being cynical to every new thing Bioware wants to try out, then I'm glad I haven't played those games.

 

LOL, that's quite a specific generalization.  That's like saying 'Well if drinking well water in Chernobyl gives you cancer, I'm sure glad I decided to never drink water again"

 

No, I believe that's a Lethal Weapon quote that Danny Glover then went on to use in subsequent movie rolls (in much the same way The Arnold used I'll be back!" in virtually every post-Terminator appearance in his career.

 

Oops, you missed the joke.

[MrDuck]

LOL, that's quite a specific generalization.  That's like saying 'Well if drinking well water in Chernobyl gives you cancer, I'm sure glad I decided to never drink water again"

 

I already posted that I didn't mean to generalise after I made the post you quoted

[Sidney]

Yet the AI opposition knows the weaknesses of the party. The battle becomes more strategic and tactical on both sides, rather than one-sided encounters.

What I prefer is having something like Survival skill, or something akin to the Fog of War partially obscure the field unless the party has intel, ability, skill, etc to overcome that barrier. And it seems that DAI will also have some form of advanced recon info system in place for that choose those implementations. While it will never be perfect, I do like strides to make the game as accommodating to each indv Player as possible, and Bioware seems to have included at least three options here.

 

Battles are hardly one sided in the AI's favor - your foes are so stunningly weak in most cases your actions are largely immaterial to the outcome. The AI "cheats" because it knows where you are but the fact that so many people think that without having a drone's eye view of the battle space you can't be tactical is stupid. We will ignore that these games effectively have no tactics but assuming that you can't control your part effectively without the magic angle that causes the angst around here...well you aren't very competent and frankly for things like the much loved friendly fire the overheat view really is a large cheat that your party wouldn't have access to.

[Elhanan]

Battles are hardly one sided in the AI's favor - your foes are so stunningly weak in most cases your actions are largely immaterial to the outcome. The AI "cheats" because it knows where you are but the fact that so many people think that without having a drone's eye view of the battle space you can't be tactical is stupid. We will ignore that these games effectively have no tactics but assuming that you can't control your part effectively without the magic angle that causes the angst around here...well you aren't very competent and frankly for things like the much loved friendly fire the overheat view really is a large cheat that your party wouldn't have access to.

Knowing where the opposing Mages, Archers, monsters, etc are located to remove them quickly seems to be less stupid than some may believe. Also hard to use non-LOS spells or Talents wisely if one cannot view areas out of LOS. Survival skill is helpful in getting better intel on opposition locations, and perhaps Fog of War if implemented. As millions play such games, perhaps they may have additional insights.

The AI has all the information of the characters; strengths and weaknesses. And while the Player may not have seen some of the encounters before, the characters seem to have a better chance to know of Darkspawn and asst monsters, plus terrain, magic, etc.

As for assumption and ignorance, will yield to those that seem to be more expert in those fields.

[Vilegrim]

Wait, you can smell zombies in those old-school RPGs?  Maybe I was wrong about them being technically inferior. 

 

 

Nope, but the character in the world would have been able to, the gods eye view means that the lack of 3.5 (because sometimes you get sounds...soemthimes) of the senses isn't crippling.

[Sidney]

Knowing where the opposing Mages, Archers, monsters, etc are located to remove them quickly seems to be less stupid than some may believe. Also hard to use non-LOS spells or Talents wisely if one cannot view areas out of LOS. Survival skill is helpful in getting better intel on opposition locations, and perhaps Fog of War if implemented. As millions play such games, perhaps they may have additional insights.

The AI has all the information of the characters; strengths and weaknesses. And while the Player may not have seen some of the encounters before, the characters seem to have a better chance to know of Darkspawn and asst monsters, plus terrain, magic, etc.

As for assumption and ignorance, will yield to those that seem to be more expert in those fields.

 

 

...and yet somehow in DA2 I never had an issue "finding" those mages and rogues without having my mini-drone camera. Well the price of having non-LOS spells should be that, well you can't see. Maybe use your rogue to scout ahead rather than turning on the game's version of radar to know where to cast them.

[Elhanan]

...and yet somehow in DA2 I never had an issue "finding" those mages and rogues without having my mini-drone camera. Well the price of having non-LOS spells should be that, well you can't see. Maybe use your rogue to scout ahead rather than turning on the game's version of radar to know where to cast them.

Congrats! Must be nice to be so flawless.

However, I find it occasionally difficult to locate the Blood mage in a large crowd from my over the shoulder vantage point, let alone target him, and woe be it if there is more than one. Or when being flanked by two large groups, to offer support for a party member well away from the others. Or for identifying opponent class types quickly other than scrolling thru them. Etc.

And having spent almost a decade patrolling and exploring Kirkwall would seem to help explain knowing where the alleys are located; not just the trap doors, knowledge of which is included in the storyline.

I have several hundreds of hours playing DA2, as well as a current campaign, so it is far from impossible. That said, I prefer a system that allows me as a solo Player to choose how to play, and DAI appears to offer that system. I prefer not to assume and remain ignorant of my surroundings, or at least try not to do so purposely. My bad....

[pdusen]

If it has a decent level of zoom-out, then over-the-should third person gives you about as much sensory information as hearing and smelling enemies around you would give. None of your senses give you the kind of tactical data that the "tactical view" does.

 

Regardless, you're getting it, so congratulations. I probably will largely ignore it like I did in Origins. Actually, in Origins, I forgot it was there altogether for most of the game. I didn't even miss it in DA2, I forgot it so thoroughly.

[Sidney]

Congrats! Must be nice to be so flawless.

However, I find it occasionally difficult to locate the Blood mage in a large crowd from my over the shoulder vantage point, let alone target him, and woe be it if there is more than one. Or when being flanked by two large groups, to offer support for a party member well away from the others. Or for identifying opponent class types quickly other than scrolling thru them. Etc.

And having spent almost a decade patrolling and exploring Kirkwall would seem to help explain knowing where the alleys are located; not just the trap doors, knowledge of which is included in the storyline.

I have several hundreds of hours playing DA2, as well as a current campaign, so it is far from impossible. That said, I prefer a system that allows me as a solo Player to choose how to play, and DAI appears to offer that system. I prefer not to assume and remain ignorant of my surroundings, or at least try not to do so purposely. My bad....

 

 

Imperfect information is and should be a huge part of a tactical situation. Not knowing that you are being flanked is, frankly, the point of someone flanking you. The funny thing is watching you, and I am picking on you but goodness knows I've seen plenty of others making this same basic argument,  try and make this about how you want to be a thinker in combat but really you are using the view to avoid having to think and adjust. I will also add that in a game that allows you to pause and then roll the recticle over your foes the idea that you can't find that blood mage is really hard to believe. Targeting I will give you in a crowd. 

 

The idea that the tactical camera is some sort of "better" way to play because it is smarter just isn't true. The bigger crime is that there is zero need for said camera because what you would usually define as tactics both don't matter and don't happen anyways.

[Rawgrim]

 The Torchlight games, Diablo games, Shadowrun Returns and SR: Dragonfall, Divinity:OS, Van Helsing 1&2, Transistor, Eschalon Saga, Blackguards, The Banner Saga, Inquisitor - all these have had pretty recent releases. Then Wasteland 2, Dead State, Eternity and Age of Decadence this year sometime or early next. Also the enhanced editions of the BG games. Sounds like it's a pretty golden time for top-down/iso RPGs to me.

 

Shrouds of the Avatar is out soon too.

[Elhanan]

Imperfect information is and should be a huge part of a tactical situation. Not knowing that you are being flanked is, frankly, the point of someone flanking you. The funny thing is watching you, and I am picking on you but goodness knows I've seen plenty of others making this same basic argument,  try and make this about how you want to be a thinker in combat but really you are using the view to avoid having to think and adjust. I will also add that in a game that allows you to pause and then roll the recticle over your foes the idea that you can't find that blood mage is really hard to believe. Targeting I will give you in a crowd. 
 
The idea that the tactical camera is some sort of "better" way to play because it is smarter just isn't true. The bigger crime is that there is zero need for said camera because what you would usually define as tactics both don't matter and don't happen anyways.

Fog of War was mentioned earlier, and nothing was ever said of having perfect info; simply better intel than, "Look! A room full of warm, Red circled bodies! Hope none of them are Blood Mages!". Comprehension is a skill best practiced.

And we can already see the flanking troops as a whole, but cannot tell where the ones in robes are located. So when one of the Companions runs off to one group or the other, it becomes problematic to locate their position for support.

I like versatility, and prefer to adapt tactically and strategically, but more so as a Player; not the pawn on the board.

But as it has been pointed out, both get our wishes, so some may continue to be entertained in immersive bliss while I get to play as a tactician.

[Morroian]

Shrouds of the Avatar is out soon too.

 

And Torment in the future.

[hexaligned]

Not really, at least not with a good story. Inquisition and the Witcher 3 are all I count, in terms of action RPGs with a good story. Iso players are getting more options than us right now. I don't think fans of either gameplay style should be feeling threatened, but it's strange for iso players especially to be paranoid in 2014.

For me it's just an aesthetic thing, there are plenty of action/hack and slash rpgs with isometric camera options.  I just don't like zoomed in third person cameras in general, in any game.  The characters obscure too much of the screen, and it tends to highlight flaws that every game has, like clipping issues and awkward animations (to various degrees), floaty hitboxes, collision issues, ect, ect.  I don't expect a good tactically satisfying gaming experience from DAI regardless of what camera options it has, but that's fine, the series has never provided that for me (unmodded), and I don't consider that to be what these gamer are about in any case.

 

Don't get me wrong I would prefer that they did, as that mechanic focus engages and entertains me more than beat em ups.  It is a completely separate issue from having camera options in the game though.

[AllThatJazz]

Shrouds of the Avatar is out soon too.

 

Unrest also sounds interesting and is up for pre-order on Steam

[CronoDragoon]

For me it's just an aesthetic thing, there are plenty of action/hack and slash rpgs with isometric camera options.  I just don't like zoomed in third person cameras in general, in any game.  The characters obscure too much of the screen, and it tends to highlight flaws that every game has, like clipping issues and awkward animations (to various degrees), floaty hitboxes, collision issues, ect, ect.  I don't expect a good tactically satisfying gaming experience from DAI regardless of what camera options it has, but that's fine, the series has never provided that for me (unmodded), and I don't consider that to be what these gamer are about in any case.

 

Don't get me wrong I would prefer that they did, as that mechanic focus engages and entertains me more than beat em ups.  It is a completely separate issue from having camera options in the game though.

 

Well sure, I'm not trying to tell anyone they are wrong for preferring iso. I just don't think the narratives of "third person action RPGs are taking over the iso genre" or "there's lots of TP action RPGs but only a few iso RPGs" holds any water.