426 réponses à ce sujet

[TurretSyndrome]

A lot of people think DA 2 is action oriented when it isn't, it only creates that illusion. All it was was a simplified and accelerated version of DA:O. From what I've seen, DA:I doesn't play like DA:O and DA 2 with only minor changes. The game seems to possess the option to turn auto-attack on or off but there is the dodge roll that seems to be a major component of combat in this game, unlike the previous ones. And this is really where my concern lies.

 

How is this mechanic, which clearly relies on the player's skill and response rather than character's, being fair to both Tactical mode users and Third-person view users? I mean, if I were playing the game in Tactical mode completely, will I not be at a disadvantage completely for not actively using this mechanic? Will I be forced to play in third-person mode and dodge roll whenever I can so I can get the most out of the character?

 

In both Origins and DA 2, character stats dominated everything. Expect for kiting the enemy, which can be done in both the previous games, nothing else played a role which required player skill or manual character control, while completely ignoring character stats. But now, the dodge roll is available to anyone who prefers to play in third-person mode, and this seems to ignore character attributes completely and allow the player to safely avoid enemy attacks. Doesn't seem right.

[leaguer of one]

Dragon Age had enough exploration, i.e. you visited the optional areas. Like the sacred ashes quest (whatever it was called). Absolutely awesome. Sure, the areas could have possibly been a bit more open, but it was still perfectly fine the way it was done DA:O.

Anyway, what you mean is hiking. Dragon Age didn't have enough hiking like in Skyrim, which now seems to have been fixed. Now we can all climb that mountain. Hooray.

 

Spoiler

 

This BS argument is getting old. DA:O's combat was absolutely fine and I wouldn't consider it to be old-school. Old-school combat is even more ambitious and sophisticated.
 

DA:O's combat was great, that is why people have been asking for more DA:O. That is also why DA:O is Bioware's best selling game to date.
 
Bioware knows that most of the fans were very disappointed in DA2, so they decided to fix that problem by moving even farther away from what made DA:O's combat great by making the game even more action oriented (that is at least the feeling I am getting at the moment). Makes sense, right?

1.No dao did not. Most of the time we were stuck in dungens for ever and how is exploration a thing to complain about.

2.BS. Many people felt that dao was a throw back.

3. No it was not good. You may prefer it but that does not make it good. It's slow which very little team tactic play.

[Il Divo]

It isn't a matter of how long it takes the dice to roll, it is WHEN the dice is rolled.

 

In DA:O, it was before the animation started, meaning if you saw it coming, you still couldn't avoid it - only your character's stats could. In DA2, this was not the case - the player could see the animation coming and, in theory, move the tankiest heavy tank that ever tink-tanked right out of the way with a Dex score of 1.

 

 

That's player reflexes trumping anything to do with the character.

 

As I said before, this isn't a defense. The game was shuffling and slow because that's how the developers designed it, not because of any necessity of the game mechanics. KotOR is decided by dice rolls but doesn't move at a snail's pace. 

[Il Divo]

1.No dao did not. Most of the time we were stuck in dungens for ever and how is exploration a thing to complain about.

2.BS. Many people felt that dao was a throw back.

3. No it was not good. You may prefer it but that does not make it good. It's slow which very little team tactic play.

 

Personally, I liked DA:O's combat, but I think it would be a huge stretch to say that's why it was Bioware's best selling RPG. 

[leaguer of one]

DAO or DA2 did not have "tactical view".  It was called 'zooming out a little bit' with the scrollwheel and you didn't need to "enter" it like whatever they are showing in these demos.  This tells us this is either 1) a console only feature and won't be part of the PC version, or 2) they really f'ed up the pc version.  Again, insofar as what we've been shown.

 

What, freedom of camera movement?  No it absolutely is not.  You rarely ever see the front of your controlled character!

 

As for the combat, no matter what system it's closer to in style, it still comes down to the Pause feature. That aspect alone should remove any twitch factor and emphasize pre- and mid- fight tactics, which include everything from movement and spacing to spells and ammo type, just like it always has. 

 

The dodging should be procedural, the hitting or missing should be procedural, the damage effects should all be procedural, that is what works about a good aRPG and why this series in particular has always been so much fun.  Otherwise you could simply abuse the numbers and pause-click your way to victory (don't ask me to explain how, I'm just making a point).  It very much harkens back to Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale and Torment in it's simplicity.  Why?  Because those systems worked.

 

I'm not nearly as worried about them screwing the combat up as I am about seeing the real PC UI.

1. The demos they are using a controler. You're jumping to conclution if you think they are going to make you place dai the same as using a keyboard and mouse.

 

2.You seen it plenty of times when they move the camera around the battle field. When move their character from a to b no one puts the camra in front of the character, they won't see where they are going.

 

3. Pause does not remove twitch. ME has it and it's still a twitch heavy game. Twitch is about how much the player has control over their character in combat. If the player chance for them hitting something or not is based on them aiming right over letting the system decide that with stats, then it's twitch heavy. That can be said about everything else in an rpg. DAO, DA2 and DAI are nothing like that.

 

And everything is procedural it just that they have an area of effect. If their is an ablity that lets you get out of that area of effect then you're not hit. Even dao has that.

And everything is

[leaguer of one]

Personally, I liked DA:O's combat, but I think it would be a huge stretch to say that's why it was Bioware's best selling RPG. 

Combat has nothing to do with it being it's best selling rpg. It sold well because it was a great rpg. Sorry to say but the games combat has it's issues.

[Burricho]

Doge roll is actually a rogue only skill....

[leaguer of one]

Doge roll is actually a rogue only skill....

And it's not spamable and can be used to stun enemies.

[dlux]

1.No dao did not. Most of the time we were stuck in dungens for ever and how is exploration a thing to complain about.

2.BS. Many people felt that dao was a throw back.

3. No it was not good. You may prefer it but that does not make it good. It's slow which very little team tactic play.

More is always better, but there was enough exploration in DA:O and even ME2 for a 60 hour game. You seem to be a Skyrim fan who loves hiking and thinks that it is one of the greatest things in that game. Are you excited about those mountains you can climb in DA:I? BTW, hiking ≠ exploration.

 

Also, the general consensus is that the combat DA:O was very good, no matter what you say. It wasn't as good as in BG2 which is old-school (epic mage battles FTW!) , but still very good and enjoyable.

[dlux]

Personally, I liked DA:O's combat, but I think it would be a huge stretch to say that's why it was Bioware's best selling RPG. 

It wasn't the sole reason obviously, but a major one, seeing that it is an extremely large portion of the game.

 

The combat, narrative, world and encounter design were excellent in DA:O, and that is why it sold so well.

[bEVEsthda]

What's the panic about? I have assumed that DA:I will divide combat into a tactical mode and a more action like mode? Am I wrong?

Just zoom out into tactical camera. The mode is available on consoles too, this time.

[dlux]

A lot of people think DA 2 is action oriented when it isn't, it only creates that illusion. All it was was a simplified and accelerated version of DA:O. From what I've seen, DA:I doesn't play like DA:O and DA 2 with only minor changes. The game seems to possess the option to turn auto-attack on or off but there is the dodge roll that seems to be a major component of combat in this game, unlike the previous ones. And this is really where my concern lies.

Of course the combat wasn't totally action orientedin DA2, but it was leaning a lot in that direction. Having high DPS was more important than CC and status effects in DA2, and the encounter design was absolutely terrible. Like you said, it was simplified. IMO it played more like an MMORPG than anything else.

 

The only really good thing about the combat in DA2 was the nice animations, other than that the combat in DA:O was clearly superior.

[leaguer of one]

More is always better, but there was enough exploration in DA:O and even ME2 for a 60 hour game. You seem to be a Skyrim fan who loves hiking and thinks that it is one of the greatest things in that game. Are you excited about those mountains you can climb in DA:I? BTW, hiking ≠ exploration.

 

Also, the general consensus is that the combat DA:O was very good, no matter what you say. It wasn't as good as in BG2 which is old-school (epic mage battles FTW!) , but still very good and enjoyable.

1.Their really was not. Most of it was just in dungeon that were too long. This is not like skyrim where you can do anything. It's not bad that they add  a living more active world. And Hiking does equal to exploration. It's a type of exploration.

 

2.No, general consensus was that it was clumsy, it was just seen as a great rpg.

[K3m0sabe]

"Gaming's moved on from Neverwinter Nights, we've moved on from Baldur's Gate."

 

And Bioware and rpg's are worse for it. 

 

Games like D:OS (topping Steam best seller list for days), PoE which got amazing funding from KS, WL2, Torment, Underrail, Age of Decadence, prove that the market for non action rpg's is there and very much alive. 

 

Bioware claiming that gamers and gaming have moved on from traditional rpg's is disingenuous. Bioware chose to move unto the action rpg's, they chose to focus on a cinematic experience, they chose to eschew deep C&C and extended dialogue, they chose to simplify their rpg systems.

 

Those choices were made not because gamers were clamoring for them, but because the biggest market out there is the console market, thats where the money is, and written dialogue, complex systems and lack of explosions simply wont do for someone sitting on their couch and squinting at their TV. 

[leaguer of one]

"Gaming's moved on from Neverwinter Nights, we've moved on from Baldur's Gate."

 

And Bioware and rpg's are worse for it. 

 

Games like D:OS (topping Steam best seller list for days), PoE which got amazing funding from KS, WL2, Torment, Underrail, Age of Decadence, prove that the market for non action rpg's is there and very much alive. 

 

Bioware claiming that gamers and gaming have moved on from traditional rpg's is disingenuous. Bioware chose to move unto the action rpg's, they chose to focus on a cinematic experience, they chose to eschew deep C&C and extended dialogue, they chose to simplify their rpg systems.

 

Those choices were made not because gamers were clamoring for them, but because the biggest market out there is the console market, thats where the money is, and written dialogue, complex systems and lack of explosions simply wont do for someone sitting on their couch and squinting at their TV. 

Those game are very niche and dao and da2 are non action rpgs.  And just because it sales well on steam which is aimed to hard core games does not mean the majority are look for rpgs like that.

[Lady Shayna]

What's the panic about? I have assumed that DA:I will divide combat into a tactical mode and a more action like mode? Am I wrong?

Just zoom out into tactical camera. The mode is available on consoles too, this time.

 

Because I have never seen a game do both equally well.  If the tactical mode isn't designed from the start to be an integral part of the game, it likely won't appeal to me, because it will feel tacked on, and I'll be fighting the system to play the game in the manner I prefer.  Honestly, I think it' unlikely they're going to be able to design a game that both appeals to me, and to people who view DA:O's combat as "clunky" , so I'd like to get an idea which way they're going.

 

Also, because they say stuff like leave the old games in the past - moving beyond them, as if they are some sort of anchor, or the people who liked their styles are no longer part of their target audience.  If that's what they're thinking, then it's unlikely they're designing a game that will appeal to me.

 

Trying to divine what they've designed from the media I've seen so far is like trying to tell the shape of something by looking at it's reflection in water...during a rain storm.  I think I get a good picture then *sploosh*, not sure what I'm looking at.  Heh.

[Dermain]

A lot of people think DA 2 is action oriented when it isn't, it only creates that illusion. All it was was a simplified and accelerated version of DA:O. From what I've seen, DA:I doesn't play like DA:O and DA 2 with only minor changes. The game seems to possess the option to turn auto-attack on or off but there is the dodge roll that seems to be a major component of combat in this game, unlike the previous ones. And this is really where my concern lies.

 

How is this mechanic, which clearly relies on the player's skill and response rather than character's, being fair to both Tactical mode users and Third-person view users? I mean, if I were playing the game in Tactical mode completely, will I not be at a disadvantage completely for not actively using this mechanic? Will I be forced to play in third-person mode and dodge roll whenever I can so I can get the most out of the character?

 

In both Origins and DA 2, character stats dominated everything. Expect for kiting the enemy, which can be done in both the previous games, nothing else played a role which required player skill or manual character control, while completely ignoring character stats. But now, the dodge roll is available to anyone who prefers to play in third-person mode, and this seems to ignore character attributes completely and allow the player to safely avoid enemy attacks. Doesn't seem right.

 

It has been asked/answered in the Twitter thread numerous times that the "Dodge Roll" ability is just that an ability...with a cool down...like everything else besides auto-attacking...

 

Hell, you can probably tweet them and they'll answer it again.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

Those game are very niche and dao and da2 are non action rpgs.  And just because it sales well on steam which is aimed to hard core games does not mean the majority are look for rpgs like that.

if it sells well i'd say it means it is what people buy. people buy things to satisfy their basic physical requirements or simply cuz they want them.

if it doesn't work that way, i guess i'm not people... huh.

 

niche? i'd say Papers, Please is niche. not cRPGs. anyway what's so bad about calling DA an action rpg? is it offensive in any way? action-oriented games are bad somehow? or shallow? if i enjoyed BioShock series, should i be offended now? DAs are action rpgs.

off topic: funny how FPSs exceed their ancestors nowadays (well, beside Halo, dear God), it's pretty amazing.

 

anyway... linked article made me rather sad, especially the "Gaming's moved on from Neverwinter Nights, we've moved on from Baldur's Gate." line. and it's friday which means tomorrow i'll have time to do something extremely selfish, like buy a game i want (on steam) and play it. making people sad on fridays should be severely punished.

[leaguer of one]

Because I have never seen a game do both equally well.  If the tactical mode isn't designed from the start to be an integral part of the game, it likely won't appeal to me, because it will feel tacked on, and I'll be fighting the system to play the game in the manner I prefer.  Honestly, I think it' unlikely they're going to be able to design a game that both appeals to me, and to people who view DA:O's combat as "clunky" , so I'd like to get an idea which way they're going.

 

Also, because they say stuff like leave the old games in the past - moving beyond them, as if they are some sort of anchor, or the people who liked their styles are no longer part of their target audience.  If that's what they're thinking, then it's unlikely they're designing a game that will appeal to me.

 

Trying to divine what they've designed from the media I've seen so far is like trying to tell the shape of something by looking at it's reflection in water...during a rain storm.  I think I get a good picture then *sploosh*, not sure what I'm looking at.  Heh.

But it is an anchor. The goal they had in bg are different from what they have now. BG1 and 2 where adventure rpgs. It was about letting the player be the hero or anti hero in a romantic setting. DA is not the same concept. Heck, the foundation of how they play are vastly different outside of point and click

[leaguer of one]

if it sells well i'd say it means it is what people buy. people buy things to satisfy their basic physical requirements or simply cuz they want them.

if it doesn't work that way, i guess i'm not people... huh.

 

niche? i'd say Papers, Please is niche. not cRPGs. anyway what's so bad about calling DA an action rpg? is it offensive in any way? action-oriented games are bad somehow? or shallow? if i enjoyed BioShock series, should i be offended now? DAs are action rpgs.

 

anyway... linked article made me rather sad, especially the "Gaming's moved on from Neverwinter Nights, we've moved on from Baldur's Gate." line. and it's friday which means tomorrow i'll have time to do something extremely selfish, like buy a game i want and play it. making people sad on fridays should be severely punished.

You're missing the point of were it sell well. If a pair of shoes sells well in the shoe shop does that mean those shoes can sell anywhere?  

 

And crpgs are niche it a fact. Niche means that in item appeal is in interests to a limited amount of people.  And the reason why calling da an action rpg because that is not what it is. It would be like calling diablo an mmorpg.

[Lady Shayna]

But it is an anchor. The goal they had in bg are different from what they have now. BG1 and 2 where adventure rpgs. It was about letting the player be the hero or anti hero in a romantic setting. DA is not the same concept. Heck, the foundation of how they play are vastly different outside of point and click

 

I believe there is A LOT from BG 1 and 2 that formed a basis in DA:O (but not into DA2) so I respectfully disagree with this opinion.  However, if it is also BioWare's opinion, then I'll likely need to return to wishing them well and dropping DA:I off my radar.  This would make me sad because I'm just beginning to get excited about the game, but better to kill the excitement off early to avoid disappointment.    

 

For now, I'll clutch my little jar of hope and wait for something so i can stop divining by puddle.

[TurretSyndrome]

It has been asked/answered in the Twitter thread numerous times that the "Dodge Roll" ability is just that an ability...with a cool down...like everything else besides auto-attacking...

 

Hell, you can probably tweet them and they'll answer it again.

 

So? That changes nothing. Does being an ability immediately change its nature from being skill-based rather than being based on the character stats? I don't understand.

[FireAndBlood]

So? That changes nothing. Does being an ability immediately change its nature from being skill-based rather than being based on the character stats? I don't understand.

It is stat based since you can't spam the dodge roll because it uses up stamina.

[Lady Shayna]

 anyway what's so bad about calling DA an action rpg? is it offensive in any way? action-oriented games are bad somehow? or shallow? if i enjoyed BioShock series, should i be offended now? DAs are action rpgs.

 

 

 

To some people it is an insult, unfortunately.  And yeah, they'll be free to insult the players who like them too.  It's unfortunate, but true.  I'm not one of them.  It's a taste issue.  

 

Heck, I don't look at it as binary.  I look at it as a 'combat pacing' spectrum.  It ranges from true turn based to fully action based.  Although a few people like games across that spectrum, my impression is that people general have a range on this spectrum that they like.  My tastes run towards the turn-based and pseudo turn based end.  I will occasionally play games on the other hand, but they must be SUPER strong in other areas that appeal to me for me to convince me to do that.  Similarly, since it's a spectrum, people will have different lines to where a game is an "action" RPG.  You consider both DA games action RPGs.  I consider DA2 to be one, and DA:O to NOT be one (based on how I played it on my PC, anyway).  No biggie on the difference in our classifications, IMO, which might just be up to the platform and choice differences, but that change in feel between the two games was sufficient to move DA2 outside of my preferred range.

 

I'm wondering if DA:I moves the franchise back in.  Hard to tell, so far, and this particular article suggests no, but then, it doesn't go into the tactical view much, so that might be why.

[K3m0sabe]

You're missing the point of were it sell well. If a pair of shoes sells well in the shoe shop does that mean those shoes can sell anywhere?  

 

And crpgs are niche it a fact. Niche means that in item appeal is in interests to a limited amount of people.  And the reason why calling da an action rpg because that is not what it is. It would be like calling diablo an mmorpg.

 

CRPG's are niche? That's a very silly thing to say, considering the millions in backing from fans that classic crpg's reimaginings are getting from KS. D:OS got a lot of money from backers and then managed to remain the top seller on the biggest game distribution platform in the world, thats not niche, thats mass market appeal. 

 

And yes, DA franchise is an action rpg franchise these days.