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The Significance of Religion for the Dalish: Are there Dalish Atheists?


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#1
In Exile

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This is an offshoot of a conversation that I read in the Cassandra character thread. It revolved around a fascinating issue: to what extent is religious observance bound up with Dalish culture? Aside from the obvious substitution of the Creators for the Maker to create a different religious background culture, we see a number of Dalish practices with religious overtones, in particular the tattoos (each of which represent a particular diety, though we have not actually been told what tattoo ties in with what deity). The only City Elves that we have seen among the Dalish have adopted to their faith and way of life - but we have only seen two expatriates to the Dalish (as far as I can recall - Lanaya in DA:O's main questline and Pol in DA:O/DA2). There's not enough evidence to say whether the conversion was genuine or forced. 

 

Thoughts? 



#2
thats1evildude

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Assuming he was Dalish, I don't think Felassan held any reverence for their gods (except perhaps Fen'Harel).


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#3
Xilizhra

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I would say the proportion of Dalish atheists is about the same as the proportion for human and city elf atheists. Which is to say, very low, but existent in a few oddballs.


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#4
HK-90210

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Well, Pol in DAII still has no blood writing on his face when we meet him(at least 4 years after he joined the tribe), but Lanaya does have blood writing on her face.

 

And according to Lanaya, she suffered quite a bid of prejudiced when she joined the tribe and became a candidate to be the tribe's First, but she says this is due to her lack of 'pure blood', rather than any religious disagreements, as Lanaya likely converted when she was brought to the clan.

 

I'm of the opinion that the Dalish clans are all very different from one another in a variety of respects. Some of them probably place greater importance on religion than others. But I think that in order to become a part of the tribe, conversion is probably a need of social necessity to the new tribe memeber as much as anything else. Afterall, the Dalish are not the most welcoming people in general. There's probably an expectation that in order to become one of them, religious conversion is simply a natural part of the process.

 

So 'forced' is probably a strong word, but I would say that the person who converts made the choice to do so by joining the Dalish in the first place.



#5
LobselVith8

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Well, Pol in DAII still has no blood writing on his face when we meet him(at least 4 years after he joined the tribe), but Lanaya does have blood writing on her face.

 

And according to Lanaya, she suffered quite a bid of prejudiced when she joined the tribe and became a candidate to be the tribe's First, but she says this is due to her lack of 'pure blood', rather than any religious disagreements, as Lanaya likely converted when she was brought to the clan.

 

Pol might not be ready. The elven pantheon is tied with the vallaslin, according to what Keeper Gishrael wrote, "The ritual deserves great reverence. The one who is to gain the vallaslin must prepare by meditating on the gods and the ways of our people, and by purifying the body and the skin. When the time comes, the keeper of the clan applies the blood writing. This is done in complete silence. Cries of pain are signs of weakness. If one cannot tolerate the pain of the blood writing, they are not ready to undertake the responsibilities of an adult. The keeper may stop the ritual if they decide that the one gaining the vallaslin is not ready. There is no shame in this, for all children are different, and our ancestors once took centuries to come of age."

 

Lanaya mentions not originally being Dalish was an issue when she competed against several others for the role of First, but she also says that the mistrust faded away in time, as Zathrian said it would. Lanaya also mentions wanting to stay with the clan when Zathrian rescued her from the human bandits who murdered her parents and enslaved her. I suspect, after what she endured, she welcomed a life among the People.

 

I'm of the opinion that the Dalish clans are all very different from one another in a variety of respects. Some of them probably place greater importance on religion than others. But I think that in order to become a part of the tribe, conversion is probably a need of social necessity to the new tribe memeber as much as anything else. Afterall, the Dalish are not the most welcoming people in general. There's probably an expectation that in order to become one of them, religious conversion is simply a natural part of the process.

 

To be fair, the Dalish are wary of outsiders because they have historically been a threat to them since they had an independent kingdom, and they still have to deal with human lords or lynch mobs running them off the land if they remain too long. It's a defense mechanism that's kept them alive for centuries. And I'd imagine that wanting to join the Dalish would mean wanting to become Dalish, and all that would entail, especially given the importance of the vallaslin. Gisharel wrote, "When the children of our people came of age, they earn the privilege of wearing the vallaslin, the blood writing. It sets us apart from the shemlen, and from the elves who have thrown their lot in with them. It reminds us that we will never again surrender our traditions and beliefs."


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#6
Chari

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No atheists in Thedas except probably your PCs. Hard to be one when demons and mages are pretty real thing

#7
LobselVith8

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No atheists in Thedas except probably your PCs. Hard to be one when demons and mages are pretty real thing

 

I don't see why spirits and magic would preclude someone from being atheist. This even comes up in a conversation between Leliana and Morrigan. where Leliana said: "But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist."

 

Morrigan's response was to address that it doesn't prove there's a higher power: "The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure." There are people who can come to this conclusion in Thedas, and there are a number of reasons why someone might not believe in a god or a higher power.


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#8
Chari

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I don't see why spirits and magic would preclude someone from being atheist. This even comes up in a conversation between Leliana and Morrigan. where Leliana said: "But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist."

Morrigan's response was to address that it doesn't prove there's a higher power: "The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure." There are people who can come to this conclusion in Thedas, and there are a number of reasons why someone might not believe in a god or a higher power.

She can become a mother to an Old God. Poor son, his mom doesnt believe in his existance, I guess
Jokes aside D.Gaider stated that neither Morrigan nor qunari are atheists. And their word for a god means "illusion" XD so... nope
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#9
Maria Caliban

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Are there any atheists in Thedas?
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#10
TheTurtle

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No atheists in Thedas except probably your PCs. Hard to be one when demons and mages are pretty real thing

https://www.youtube....qGrwVDQY#t=6556



#11
Chari

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https://www.youtube....qGrwVDQY#t=6556

https://twitter.com/...482726664667136
Ahh, I never get tired of showing this tweet <3
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#12
TheJediSaint

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Morrigan doesn't believe in the Maker, that does not mean she doesn't believe in other gods.   Gods like the one the Warden could put in her womb, for example.


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#13
LobselVith8

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https://twitter.com/...482726664667136
Ahh, I never get tired of showing this tweet <3

 

In other words, you have absolutely no proof that atheists don't exist in Thedas?



#14
Chari

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In other words, you have absolutely no proof that atheists don't exist in Thedas?

I have the Word of God. You have headcanons. Choose which is more solid ;)
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#15
LobselVith8

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I have the Word of God. You have headcanons. Choose which is more solid ;)

 

Your link addresses Morrigan and the Qunari, not the entirety of Thedas. You might want to provide some actual proof next time you make the claim that atheists don't exist.


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#16
TheTurtle

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https://twitter.com/...482726664667136
Ahh, I never get tired of showing this tweet <3

Well that's disappointing and really irksome. So basically everyone believes in one god or another I understand that DA is fantasy, but that's extremely unrealistic for not a single person to not believe in any gods


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#17
Chari

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Your link addresses Morrigan and the Qunari, not the entirety of Thedas. You might want to provide some actual proof next time you make the claim that atheists don't exist.

I am pretty sure that in the world of magic, spirits and demons where even that one culture which calls gods an illusion and another which doesnt even dream are not atheistic the only possible atheists are your PCs. Majority of population are educated by Church and other major authorities. Minorities have to deal with undead, demons haunting their dreams, mages causing chaos and magical mirrors which teleport you from real world to whothehellknowswhere
You may hope whatever you want but so far it is 99% unlikely

#18
SgtSteel91

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Well that's disappointing and really irksome. So basically everyone believes in one god or another I understand that DA is fantasy, but that's extremely unrealistic for not a single person to not believe in any gods

 

Your PC can choose to believe in any gods. It's right there in the tweet.



#19
TheTurtle

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Your PC can choose to believe in any gods. It's right there in the tweet.

Yeah I got that doesn't change the fact that only one person in the entire world being an atheist is unrealistic. 


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#20
TheJediSaint

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Yeah I got that doesn't change the fact that only one person in the entire world being an atheist is unrealistic. 

 

I find dragons to be unrealistic, myself.  Their aerodynamics just doesn't work.


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#21
Maferath

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What are the Qunari gods?



#22
SgtSteel91

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I am pretty sure that in the world of magic, spirits and demons where even that one culture which calls gods an illusion and another which doesnt even dream are not atheistic the only possible atheists are your PCs. Majority of population are educated by Church and other major authorities. Minorities have to deal with undead, demons haunting their dreams, mages causing chaos and magical mirrors which teleport you from real world to whothehellknowswhere
You may hope whatever you want but so far it is 99% unlikely

 

Maybe it's just advanced science? You know that saying, magic to some is just sufficiently advanced technology to others. Magic spells? Advanced manipulation of physics. The Fade and Spirits? Another dimension with its own denizens that is so close to proximity to the Dragon Age dimension such that certain people of certain genetic mutations can subconsciously/consciously access it. Like in The Witcher and The Conjuncture of Spheres.



#23
TheTurtle

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I find dragons to be unrealistic, myself.  Their aerodynamics just doesn't work.

a15a57eeaa03.gif

 

Whatever man all I'm saying is magic doesn't equal the existence of gods and not one person other than the PC believing that is disappointing.


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#24
Chari

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Maybe it's just advanced science? You know that saying, magic to some is just sufficiently advanced technology to others. Magic spells? Advanced manipulation of physics. The Fade and Spirits? Another dimension with its own denizens that is so close to proximity to the Dragon Age dimension such that certain people of certain genetic mutations can subconsciously/consciously access it.

Science in a world where only Tevinter (who believe in Maker), Qunari (who arent atheists as stated before) and Orlais (devoted to the Maker) practice it doesnt make these cultures atheistic
It doesnt make it any less magical. The concept that gods, religion and magic has no inner order is total rubbish

#25
Chari

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What are the Qunari gods?

They used to believe in animalistic gods. Nowadays they believe in the World of Dead aka Fade where the spirits of the dead live