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[Ryzaki]

I find dragons to be unrealistic, myself.  Their aerodynamics just doesn't work.

 

XD

 

It's magic!

[LobselVith8]

Yeah I got that doesn't change the fact that only one person in the entire world being an atheist is unrealistic. 

 

Considering The Warden can explicitly say that he (or she) doesn't believe in the Maker, Morrigan can formulate an argument as to why magic and spirits don't proof the existence of the Maker or a higher power, and Aveline expresses that the Maker may not be real, I see no evidence to prove that atheists don't exist in Thedas.

[Chari]

Considering The Warden can explicitly say that he (or she) doesn't believe in the Maker, Morrigan can formulate an argument as to why magic and spirits don't proof the existence of the Maker or a higher power, and Aveline expresses that the Maker may not be real, I see no evidence to prove that atheists don't exist in Thedas.

Maker isnt the only God and belief in him isnt the only religion in Thedas, you know

[LobselVith8]

Maker isnt the only God and belief in him isnt the only religion in Thedas, you know

 

In relation to people who have only been exposed to the Andrastian religion, it's disingenuous to insinuate that they follow another religion. And Gaider has already addressed The Warden's statement as an atheist option when this came up on BSN.

[TheTurtle]

Maker isnt the only God and belief in him isnt the only religion in Thedas, you know

The dialouge at 1:50:12 starts with

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you I see. No, I do not must I?

 

She says she does not believe in any higher power not just the maker so I guess that was just retconned or whatever.

[Chari]

In relation to people who have only been exposed to the Andrastian religion, it's disingenuous to insinuate that they follow another religion. And Gaider has already addressed The Warden's statement as an atheist option when this came up on BSN.

Morrigan was brought up by Flemeth and mostly met the tribes which have their own religions, Aveline also travelled a lot and definitelly belives in magic and spirits. As do all our companions.
Atheism generally opposes teligion, but the belief that religions have to have gods in them is quite absurd. Some religions worship only spirits and demons and other deities. Some like Rivain believe in the natural world order thus thinking of the world itself as a god. Generally any religion believes in supernatural powers exceeding human capabilities and having either a mind of its own or other personification elements. And since spirits are supernatural force exceeding in power any human and having a mind of its own and whole Thedas realises they are real.. welp
The PC is created by the player thus she is very editable

[LobselVith8]

Morrigan was brought up by Flemeth and mostly met the tribes which have their own religions, Aveline also travelled a lot and definitelly belives in magic and spirits. As do all our companions.
Atheism generally opposes teligion, but the belief that religions have to have gods in them is quite absurd. Some religions worship only spirits and demons and other deities. Some like Rivain believe in the natural world order thus thinking of the world itself as a god. Generally any religion believes in supernatural powers exceeding human capabilities and having either a mind of its own or other personification elements. And since spirits are supernatural force exceeding in power any human and having a mind of its own
The PC is created by the player thus she is very editable

 

Believing in spirits and magic doesn't prohibit one from being atheist, so I have no idea why you even brought it up in relation to Aveline, and the protagonist is limited to expressing ideas and thoughts that relate to the existing world. You have yet to provide any evidence that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas, despite the fact that the protagonist could express an atheist point of view in Origins and Awakening; it's why a culturally Andrastian protagonist could say he didn't vbelieve in the Maker in Origins, and why it was brought up again in Awakening when Justice asked if the Warden-Commander believed in the Maker, which a character from a culturally Andrastian background could refute.

[Chari]

Believing in spirits and magic doesn't prohibit one from being atheist, so I have no idea why you even brought it up in relation to Aveline, and the protagonist is limited to expressing ideas and thoughts that relate to the existing world. You have yet to provide any evidence that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas, despite the fact that the protagonist could express an atheist point of view in Origins and Awakening; it's why a culturally Andrastian protagonist could say he didn't vbelieve in the Maker in Origins, and why it was brought up again in Awakening when Justice asked if the Warden-Commander believed in the Maker, which a character from a culturally Andrastian background could refute.

Yes, it does. Spirits and demons are supernatural in nature. They have power exceeding any mortal's and can alter their own world - and given a chance the physical one - with a thought. Some real world religions have deities less powerful
Eh, the PC is the PC. Since the DA is created for real world people and the atheism is popular nowadays, it is only logical to give the player such a choice. It is a roleplay game

[LobselVith8]

Yes, it does. Spirits and demons are supernatural in nature. They have power exceeding any mortal's and can alter their own world - and given a chance the physical one - with a thought. Some real world religions have deities less powerful

 

No, it doesn't. In a supernatural settling like Thedas, being aware of spirits and magic doesn't necessitate believing in a god or a higher power. I don't see why you conflate magic with atheism, either.

 

Eh, the PC is the PC. Since the DA is created for real world people and the atheism is popular nowadays, it is only logical to give the player such a choice. It is a roleplay game

 

The protagonist is also limited to expressing ideas and concepts that are relevant to the world of Dragon Age, and Morrigan can provide an atheist argument to Leliana, so it's not as though the notion is inconceivable by the standards of Thedas.

[Chari]

No, it doesn't. In a supernatural settling like Thedas, being aware of spirits and magic doesn't necessitate believing in a god or a higher power. I don't see why you conflate magic with atheism, either.


The protagonist is also limited to expressing ideas and concepts that are relevant to the world of Dragon Age, and Morrigan can provide an atheist argument to Leliana, so it's not as though the notion is inconceivable by the standards of Thedas.

Ask any shaman, a witch, a believer in general and to them their gods and spirits are no less real than you and me. To majority of Thedas people Maker and demons as well since mostly only mages deal with them.
Because generally atheism denies existance of supernatural unscientific beings and concepts: gods, magic, curses, spells, extrasensorial things, prophecies etc. Spirits and demons are one of them. The concept of gods itself is realy vague, what one culture calls a god, another calls a demon, to some cultures a tree is a god, an item, an animal. It is very complex

So what? My dalish or dwarven PC can pray to the Maker if I want to. It is more about the player than the Warden. Hence Hawke which has more solid personality by default is a believer

[Sylanaar]

Ask any shaman, a witch, a believer in general and to them their gods and spirits are no less real than you and me. To majority of Thedas people Maker and demons as well since mostly only mages deal with them.
Because generally atheism denies existance of supernatural unscientific beings and concepts: gods, magic, curses, spells, extrasensorial things, prophecies etc. Spirits and demons are one of them. The concept of gods itself is realy vague, what one culture calls a god, another calls a demon, to some cultures a tree is a god, an item, an animal. It is very complex

So what? My dalish or dwarven PC can pray to the Maker if I want to. It is more about the player than the Warden. Hence Hawke which has more solid personality by default is a believer

Magic in our world is unscientific because it doesn't exist in DA it does, so it can be tested this doesn't mean there has to be any god or lack of gods, and believing hawk to have a more solid personality because he is a believer is kinda rude... now on topic i hope our companions have a variety of beliefs it would make it and interesting discussion 

[OctagonalSquare]

Well, we kinda know there are gods. One is killed at the end of every Blight.

 

I think it's more accurate to say there are apatheists in Thedas. There are people who believe gods exist, but don't worship them.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

With regards to that one tweet made by David Gaider, it was later known that he forgot that Morrigan has these lines of dialogue in DA:O where she explicitly states that she does not believe in any form of higher power and considers the existence of magic, spirits and demons to not be an conclusive indication to the existence of god/gods who created Thedas, the Veil, the living creatures in it, the non-living elements of it, the laws of nature that govern the Theodosian universe, a moral code, etc.

 

Additionally, the Old Gods are powerful beings who can take the shape of high dragons. No one knows what they actually are. Flemeth can assume the shape of a high dragon. It is implied that she can divide her souls to cheat death. Does that make her a goddess or just simply a powerful being in the Theodosian universe ? There is no evidence that the Old Gods created the world, created the living creatures in it, dictated the fate of the world in its entirety, etc. We only know that the Old Gods are viewed as gods by the ancient Tevinter as gods because of the power they bequeathed to the people of ancient Tevinter.  

 

Furthermore, Morrigan does not in any way, claim that she believes that the Old Gods are gods. She just wishes to preserve the power and the essence of the power in a human form. To what end, we, the players currently do not know. To advance her agenda ? To use as ammunition and utility against Flemeth ? To just want to have a really powerful child ? Or a combination of all these things ? Morrigan in facts states quite clearly that she does not believe in any sort of higher power to Leliana. 

 

As for Aveline, she stated the possibility that the Maker might not exist. However this does not mean she is a believer of the Creators or the Forgotten Ones or Fen'Harel or the Qun or the Stone or Old Gods. I doubt that Aveline, being raised and living in the environment that she was, would have gotten sufficient exposure to other forms of god/s worship in Thedas. Therefore, we can infer that when Aveline makes that statement, she is either an agnostic or an atheist or a freethinker. 

 

As for our playable characters, it is even more interesting. We can claim to be outright atheists or just believe that god/s exist but they do not give a damn about us / indifferent to us or we can be skeptical about it. 

 

As for the Dalish, as a collective, no, they are not atheists. They believe in the Creators, in Forgotten Ones and in Fen'Harel. They worship the Creators only however. Clan wise, the enforcement and belief in religions vary. 

 

As for the individual Dalish, I am quite sure there are some who are atheists, some who are agnostic, some who are zealots, some who are moderately religious and some who just do not give a single f***. 

 

This is, after all, Thedas. This is not Tamriel where we know for sure that gods like the Aedra, the Daedra, the Silent Masters, Anu and Sithis exist. There is no solid evidence that advocates for the existence of a higher power. Which most likely would mean that there will be a degree of religiosity and irreligiosity existing.  

[CapivaRasgor]

Morrigan was brought up by Flemeth and mostly met the tribes which have their own religions, Aveline also travelled a lot and definitelly belives in magic and spirits. As do all our companions.
Atheism generally opposes teligion, but the belief that religions have to have gods in them is quite absurd. Some religions worship only spirits and demons and other deities. Some like Rivain believe in the natural world order thus thinking of the world itself as a god. Generally any religion believes in supernatural powers exceeding human capabilities and having either a mind of its own or other personification elements. And since spirits are supernatural force exceeding in power any human and having a mind of its own and whole Thedas realises they are real.. welp
The PC is created by the player thus she is very editable

Nope, atheism opposes the idea of the existance of deities or gods of any form, just Google the concept and you'll see. Opposing religion is sometimes just a consequence of that. In fact there are even atheistic religions: buddhism, taoism, confucianism.

Plus, the existance of spirits doesn't make being an atheist impossible, as thus far you can not draw any empirical evidence to the existance of a higher power from it. As far as anyone in Thedas know their gods could have just been spirits who tricked their more immature ancestors into worshipping them, or they could be real, it's intentionally ambiguous and will remain like that according to the writers.

[Dean_the_Young]

As far as the Dalish go, I doubt there are enough aethiests to be a minority of significance: not because the Dalish are some theocratic inquisitorial power that fixates on religion more than everything else, but simply from social pressure to conform towards ideal elvenness, which would include the Creator-worship. Living in a Dalish community would likely be like living in a small conservative religious community: children are brought up to believe the One True Way which parents can't veto or try to raise their children outside of what passes for the education system, everyone faces social pressure to conform and at least go through the motions even if the religion isn't their focus in life, and deviants and active disbelievers are shunned and ostracized until they either conform to minimal standards or leave.

 

It wouldn't be a model of tolerance, but it wouldn't be fanatical intolerance either. Not being a vocal disbeliver and going through the social motions (such as curing by the creators rather than Andraste) would likely be sufficient. A city elf would face far more pressure and stigma if, say, they tried to be andrastian or keep some other human culture alive than if they privately didn't believe in the Creators but didn't rock the boat.

 

The bigger obstacle to aethiesm in Thedas is the prevalence of the supernatural and magic, which meshes well with the idea of deities, rather than any of the religions not tolerating disbelief.

[Fialka]

Interesting thread!  Though I think at this point 'atheism in Thedas' might be more the subject matter here.  Anyway, I don't feel like going back and quoting specific things, but here are some thoughts....

 

I think it is in fact possible to 'believe' in spirits/demons, magic, and the Fade in the world of Dragon Age and still be an atheist.  I think the word 'belief' here is problematic though.  It is actually belief or faith when there is concrete proof that something exists? Even in Morrigan's case - one could argue she 'believes' in the Old Gods - else why would she want one reincarnated as her own child?  But - we know the Old Gods exist - because these incredibly powerful, sentient dragons exist.  We also know powerful magisters (like Corypheus) were able to communicate with them, and maybe even have enough pull to be able to influence them in some way.  Whether or not you 'believe' that these Old Gods were in fact Gods, who had some hand in the creation of the world or in determining what happens beyond their immediate reach, is where the actual faith part comes in, I think.

 

As far as how this related to the Dalish - I think it is possible to be Dalish and not believe in the Creators.  But I imagine such an individual would keep very quiet about it if that's the case - esecially if they don't want to be made a pariah by their clan.

 

Also - here's an article about atheism and the 'belief' in the possibility of the paranormal.  Not that a single article should be taken as The Truth, but it's an interesting read on the topic: www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8958.htm

[Dr_Vile]

I honestly think it depends on your definition of atheist. Strictly speaking, atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god or gods. If it's in this sense, then I suppose there might be some Dalish who could be described as atheist, although I'd expect them to be in the minority as belief in the Creators is a major part of the Dalish identity. There could be some who doubt the existence of the gods but still observe the rituals and take the vallaslin (since the latter is more to do with coming-of-age rather than religious observance) - it's sort of like the real world concept of Cultural Christianity: you might not believe in the gods, but you follow the customs out of a sense of social identity.

 

If we're talking about a denial of any supernatural forces whatsoever, then I very much doubt it. In an overtly magical setting, denying the existence of magic and spirits is idiotic, and falls under the definition of Flat-Earth Atheism. I suppose a peasant in an isolated farmstead might not believe in the supernatural, but they're going to be quickly disabused of that notion when the first mage rolls into town and sets fire to the barn.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nope, atheism opposes the idea of the existance of deities or gods of any form, just Google the concept and you'll see. Opposing religion is sometimes just a consequence of that. In fact there are even atheistic religions: buddhism, taoism, confucianism.

Plus, the existance of spirits doesn't make being an atheist impossible, as thus far you can not draw any empirical evidence to the existance of a higher power from it. As far as anyone in Thedas know their gods could have just been spirits who tricked their more immature ancestors into worshipping them, or they could be real, it's intentionally ambiguous and will remain like that according to the writers.

It's mixed. Different belief systems have different concepts of what gods and spirits are: some distinguish them, some equate them. In Christianity there is huge doctrinal disagreement about the nature and relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Japanese Shinto is an example in which spirits are often considered gods, even if the gods are frequently small and minor. Others have internal disagreements: various sects of Taoism do have a pantheon. And that's not even getting into the blending of religion and philosophy in which philosophical doctrines are related to higher powers and spiritual concepts, like Buddhism- Buddhism doesn't have a singular god, but it certainly has a concept of a higher power and workings of the universe others might consider equivalent to a god.

 

And then there's the various distinctions in aethism as well. Some aethiests see no conflict with aethism and believing in spirits. Others most certainly do.

[CapivaRasgor]

It's mixed. Different belief systems have different concepts of what gods and spirits are: some distinguish them, some equate them. In Christianity there is huge doctrinal disagreement about the nature and relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Japanese Shinto is an example in which spirits are often considered gods, even if the gods are frequently small and minor. Others have internal disagreements: various sects of Taoism do have a pantheon. And that's not even getting into the blending of religion and philosophy in which philosophical doctrines are related to higher powers and spiritual concepts, like Buddhism- Buddhism doesn't have a singular god, but it certainly has a concept of a higher power and workings of the universe others might consider equivalent to a god.

And then there's the various distinctions in aethism as well. Some aethiests see no conflict with aethism and believing in spirits. Others most certainly do.

Well, now you got me curious, would you mind if we discussed this in more detail out of this thread?(or it will derail it completly)

[Xilizhra]

"Atheism" as a concept likely doesn't include the Old Gods, which don't have to be believed in because they exist concretely. It'd really only apply to the Maker and Creators.

[Mistic]

Lanaya mentions not originally being Dalish was an issue when she competed against several others for the role of First, but she also says that the mistrust faded away in time, as Zathrian said it would. Lanaya also mentions wanting to stay with the clan when Zathrian rescued her from the human bandits who murdered her parents and enslaved her. I suspect, after what she endured, she welcomed a life among the People.

 

True, Lanaya didn't seem forced at all. She was brought up among the Dalish, so in the end it would be natural for her to assimilate their ways.

 

What I don't understand is your use of "the People" there. She was already part of the People, just not of the Dalish.

 

As far as the Dalish go, I doubt there are enough aethiests to be a minority of significance: not because the Dalish are some theocratic inquisitorial power that fixates on religion more than everything else, but simply from social pressure to conform towards ideal elvenness, which would include the Creator-worship. Living in a Dalish community would likely be like living in a small conservative religious community: children are brought up to believe the One True Way which parents can't veto or try to raise their children outside of what passes for the education system, everyone faces social pressure to conform and at least go through the motions even if the religion isn't their focus in life, and deviants and active disbelievers are shunned and ostracized until they either conform to minimal standards or leave.

 

It wouldn't be a model of tolerance, but it wouldn't be fanatical intolerance either. Not being a vocal disbeliver and going through the social motions (such as curing by the creators rather than Andraste) would likely be sufficient. A city elf would face far more pressure and stigma if, say, they tried to be andrastian or keep some other human culture alive than if they privately didn't believe in the Creators but didn't rock the boat.

 

The Dalish, or at least some of them, seem to be flexible about some social customs. It's interesting to note that Merrill suffered serious pressure from dealing with spirits and blood magic, while Aneirin wasn't forced to be part of their communal life despite following them all the time.

[Xilizhra]

True, Lanaya didn't seem forced at all. She was brought up among the Dalish, so in the end it would be natural for her to assimilate their ways.

 

What I don't understand is your use of "the People" there. She was already part of the People, just not of the Dalish.

Technically, "the People" is synonymous with "the Dalish." It's a cultural term, not really a racial one.

[Mistic]

Technically, "the People" is synonymous with "the Dalish." It's a cultural term, not really a racial one.

 

Where does that use come from? I remember that 'Elvhen' means literally 'The People', and thus the name of the race. No idea about a Dalish-only use, though.

[Xilizhra]

Where does that use come from? I remember that 'Elvhen' means literally 'The People', and thus the name of the race. No idea about a Dalish-only use, though.

The Dalish see themselves as the last of the elvhen.

[Celtic Latino]

I highly doubt a people who are so focused on reclaiming ancient history would deny any of the ancient elven beliefs, including that of the Creators (which is paramount in the Dalish lore). Especially in a world where demons/magic are very real, I'd actually be surprised if people didn't believe in some sort of entity.

 

I understand people want head-canons and some don't like the idea of a theistic PC, but Thedas isn't a mirror of Earth where people replicate themselves and their personal views. It's a fantasy land where people have established beliefs, cultures and preconceptions, whether real people agree or like it or not.