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[Freedheart]

That old saying 'there are no atheists in a foxhole' could refer to Thedas - dragons, darkspawn, demons...it's just one BIG foxhole lol

[LobselVith8]

"Atheism" as a concept likely doesn't include the Old Gods, which don't have to be believed in because they exist concretely. It'd really only apply to the Maker and Creators.

 

I don't see why the Old Gods would count at all since some Andrastian scholars question if the Old Gods weren't simply highly advanced dragons: "Scholars assume that the Old Gods must indeed have been real at one point, but most agree that they were likely actual dragons - ancient high dragons of a magnitude not known today, and impressive enough to frighten ancient peoples into worshipping them. Some even claim that these dragons slumber as a form of hibernation, not as a result of the Maker's wrath."

 

Technically, "the People" is synonymous with "the Dalish." It's a cultural term, not really a racial one.

 

Asha'bellanar uses it as well when she sees Merrill.

[Xilizhra]

I don't see why the Old Gods would count at all since some Andrastian scholars question if the Old Gods weren't simply highly advanced dragons: "Scholars assume that the Old Gods must indeed have been real at one point, but most agree that they were likely actual dragons - ancient high dragons of a magnitude not known today, and impressive enough to frighten ancient peoples into worshipping them. Some even claim that these dragons slumber as a form of hibernation, not as a result of the Maker's wrath."

That seems improbable. We've seen tainted dragons before, and they just act like normal ghouls; they're not fully sapient hive lords like the archdemons. Those who deny the Old Gods are fairly clearly wrong.

[Dean_the_Young]

"Atheism" as a concept likely doesn't include the Old Gods, which don't have to be believed in because they exist concretely. It'd really only apply to the Maker and Creators.

 

There's nothing in the concept of atheism that defines gods as immaterial: just because the Old Gods exist concretely doesn't mean they wouldn't count.

 

Instead, you're working from a separate cultural definition as gods as non-concrete entities. There's nothing inherent about that. Many religions have differing views on the physical nature of their deities, and merge deity identity with both physical and immaterial concepts (such as greek religion).

[Dean_the_Young]

The Dalish, or at least some of them, seem to be flexible about some social customs. It's interesting to note that Merrill suffered serious pressure from dealing with spirits and blood magic, while Aneirin wasn't forced to be part of their communal life despite following them all the time.

One of the important things to consider about the Dalish is that they are a fragmented culture. Or rather, that they were a culture (the Dales) that is in the process of fragmenting. While the Dalish appeal to a common culture (the cult of the ancient elvishness, effectively) and maintain a common identity, the tribal divisions and diaspora over different regions and cultures is gradually pushing the clans in different directions. While this is mitigated somewhat by trading members between clans and the occasional meetings, the Dalish as a unified culture is separating in slow motion. Some have become more xenophobic and militaristic, such as the clan in the Masked Empire, while some have gained much more stable ties and a relatively sedentry lifestyle in Rivain.

 

There is still more than enough commonality in culture and viewpoints and identities to consider the Dalish as a coherent group, but the diverging tribal attitudes and viewpoints within the spectrum of 'Dalish' is something to keep in consideration.

[Gervaise]

I think it would be true to say that most people in Thedas believe there is something beyond their material world which can affect events in it.   Some may have experienced this for real via demons, etc, others take the word of their superiors about the fact.   However, that does not necessarily mean that everyone outside of the Dalish, the dwarves and the Qun believe in the Maker or Andraste's view of how the world was created.   I would regard Averline as agnostic regarding the Maker and probably atheistic regarding the elven Creators.

 

Among the Dalish belief in the Creators is integral to their culture.   If a Dalish child were to ask why they still persist in travelling around and living as they do, they would be told that they are trying to prove themselves worthy to the Creators, by remembering what it is to be an elf.   So if a member of the clan outright claimed the Creators did not exist, they would likely be banished because the rest of the clan would be fearful of losing the goodwill of the Creators if they allowed them to stay.  Belief in the Creators is too tied up with the Dalish perception of what constitutes true elven attitudes for them to allow any other view.   What an individual chose to believe in their own mind would be an entirely different matter but you would likely not get them to admit as much openly unless they really trusted you.    This is why a PC can express any view they like if asked and have been given the opportunity to do so in the past but the majority of people they meet are unlikely to agree with them.   A Dalish could deny the existence  of the Maker but that would not make them an atheist except to an Andrastrian.

 

It is interesting to note that in the early years of Christianity when the majority of the Roman World was polytheistic, Christians were themselves labelled as atheists because they denied the existence of all gods except their own.    So from that point of view, the Dalish would regard Andrastrians as atheists because they do not acknowledge the Creators as gods, nor the forbidden/forgotten ones.    

[Statare]

I don't know. I'm seeing a lot of people throwing around faith and religion like they mean the same thing from culture to culture. In Human/City Elf society, Andrastrianism is analogous to Christianity in that it is an organized religion, with religious texts, and belief in a single god. Dalish belief in the Creators is really nothing like that: no organized religion (it has variation from clan to clan and time to time), it has no religious texts (oral tradition), and it does not have a single god. Dalish religion does not even have gods as we expect their gods to be (their gods are implied to be a. created themselves b. fallible (they can't die (at least not as mortals die), but they were defeated (some even inhabited the land of death, and all are absent besides Fen'Harel)).

 

Dalish religion does not preclude beliefs, nor does it give a set idea of how the world came to be. Andrastrianism on the other hand requires one to disavow alternatives and gives a clear idea of how things are and how things will be. Faith for an Andrastrian means acceptance of a history (explanation of how the world came to be) and participation in religious practices. Faith for a Dalish means telling stories and preserving cultural practices, it means understanding/believing in the Dalish pantheon, but it does not preclude ideas (it does not actively denounce the existence of other Gods like the Maker) and it is not prescriptive (there is no inherent path the Elves must take to restore the Elven Pantheon, or bring about some Utopian project like the Chantry does). 

 

Because the Dalish belief in the Elven Pantheon is variable, and thus personal, and not as rigidly defined as the Chantry belief in the Maker, there is more room for syncretism, or combination of beliefs or coexistence of multiple beliefs.

 

A Dalish could believe in the Elven Pantheon and still believe in a Maker like entity who created their gods, just they'd probably not believe in the Maker as described by humans.

 

A Dalish could believe that the Elven Pantheon existed or exists, but that there is no Maker type entity (about as close to Atheism as you can get in Thedas), and they just assume that the Creators were powerful mortals, or some type of Spirit or something Else. 

[Mistic]

The Dalish see themselves as the last of the elvhen.

 

Mm, yes, that's what the guard in the Sabrae Clan tells Hawke. "We are the last of the elvhen. We remember what the People truly are, even as your city elves forget". So I suppose from that wording that they do realize that all elves are part of the People, but that they feel that they are the only ones who are true to the elven ways.

 

All in all, after checking it, I find that use of the term (not the term itself, since we don't really choose how to call our species) very condescending, full of unfortunate implications and a text book example of the famous No True Scotsman fallacy. Fenris takes issue with their use of the word 'elvhen' and I can't help but side with him in that regard.

 

It's curious, but never realized it until I read the word applied to Lanaya. I'd really want to avoid that in Inquisition, if I can.

[LobselVith8]

Mm, yes, that's what the guard in the Sabrae Clan tells Hawke. "We are the last of the elvhen. We remember what the People truly are, even as your city elves forget". So I suppose from that wording that they do realize that all elves are part of the People, but that they feel that they are the only ones who are true to the elven ways.

 

All in all, after checking it, I find that use of the term (not the term itself, since we don't really choose how to call our species) very condescending, full of unfortunate implications and a text book example of the famous No True Scotsman fallacy. Fenris takes issue with their use of the word 'elvhen' and I can't help but side with him in that regard.

 

It's curious, but never realized it until I read the word applied to Lanaya. I'd really want to avoid that in Inquisition, if I can.

 

You mean you want to avoid your elven protagonist viewing the city elves as not being true elves? As long as the player has agency to shape who the protagonist is, I don't think that would be an issue. It's not as though every Dalish has that same mentality, either. Merrill believed in the Creators, saw herself as one of the People, but never saw the elves in the Alienage as less, and she cared about their plight. Even Hawke, as predefined as he was in many areas, still allowed some breathing room for the player to shape certain aspects of his personality. Although I'm certainly hoping the Inquisitor allows for more player agency in determining who the protagonist is than we had with Hawke.

[Mistic]

You mean you want to avoid your elven protagonist viewing the city elves as not being true elves? As long as the player has agency to shape who the protagonist is, I don't think that would be an issue. It's not as though every Dalish has that same mentality, either. Merrill believed in the Creators, saw herself as one of the People, but never saw the elves in the Alienage as less, and she cared about their plight. Even Hawke, as predefined as he was in many areas, still allowed some breathing room for the player to shape certain aspects of his personality. Although I'm certainly hoping the Inquisitor allows for more player agency in determining who the protagonist is than we had with Hawke.

 

I hope so. Truth be told, probably the Inquisitor's dialogue will be neutral in general, so that will work for me.

 

I'm checking Merrill's dialogue and she doesn't use the term that way. In fact, when talking to Fenris she uses "our people" to include him too. That's nice. The Dalish stealing the concept of Elvhen/the People just to call themselves is disturbing. Imagine if some country insisted that the term "Human" can only be applied to them because they have the "correct" religion, culture, etc.

[cjones91]

Every religion has non believers so I bet there are Dalish atheists.

[TK514]

I don't see any reason there wouldn't be Dalish atheists.  I'm not talking about large sections of the populace, though an entire clan that had given up their beliefs in the Creators might be interesting, but rather individuals who simply choose not to believe for whatever reason.

 

The real question, for me, is if such an individual would be allowed to remain with their clan.  Given how Merrill's clan kicked her out over a difference of opinion, and her statement that lone elves are easy prey, a Dalish elf atheist might be difficult to find.  They might mouth the words as a matter of survival rather than express their true beliefs and be a pariah.

[LobselVith8]

I hope so. Truth be told, probably the Inquisitor's dialogue will be neutral in general, so that will work for me.

 

It seems the player can choose the tone for different dialogue options, so there seems to be a bit more agency than there was in the previous game. Upon entering the Emerald Graves, I'd certainly like to have my elven Inquisitor express sorrow at all the lost lives from the war.

 

I'm checking Merrill's dialogue and she doesn't use the term that way. In fact, when talking to Fenris she uses "our people" to include him too. That's nice. The Dalish stealing the concept of Elvhen/the People just to call themselves is disturbing. Imagine if some country insisted that the term "Human" can only be applied to them because they have the "correct" religion, culture, etc.

 

Merrill does use the term 'the People' (including as one of her combat dialogues) but not in the same way as the hunter who confronts Fenris and Hawke, as she sees the inhabitants of the Alienage as elves as well. Her dialogue to Fenris about Tevinter elves finding sanctuary with the Dalish also makes me think she would have been the kind of Keeper who wouldn't ask anyone to change who they are to be among the clan. I get the feeling atheists wouldn't be shunned by her, and she never has any issue with the Alienage elves following the Maker. I don't think Marethari or Lanaya would shun atheists, either, but that's merely from my impression on how they came across to me.

 

You should have the opportunity to shape your protagonist as you see fit. I remember one of the earlier videos showing the developers talking about leaving the protagonist's view of magic in the hands of the player, and I suspect other areas will be no different. I'm certainly hoping the same for my character. While I'd like to play an elven Inquisitor who is more traditional (in terms of approaching spirits) I genuinely want to approach Andrastian elves in the same way Merrill does - they're elves, too, and if there's an opportunity to help them, then he'll take it. Even about little things. I remember the children from the City Elf Origin talking about how they didn't know of any elven heroes, and I could imagine an elven Inquisitor telling them about Shartan battling the Imperium alongside freed elven slaves, Iloren fighting the darkspawn in the Anderfels during the Second Blight, and Garahel uniting the Free Marches to stop the Fourth Blight.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mm, yes, that's what the guard in the Sabrae Clan tells Hawke. "We are the last of the elvhen. We remember what the People truly are, even as your city elves forget". So I suppose from that wording that they do realize that all elves are part of the People, but that they feel that they are the only ones who are true to the elven ways.

 

All in all, after checking it, I find that use of the term (not the term itself, since we don't really choose how to call our species) very condescending, full of unfortunate implications and a text book example of the famous No True Scotsman fallacy. Fenris takes issue with their use of the word 'elvhen' and I can't help but side with him in that regard.

 

It's curious, but never realized it until I read the word applied to Lanaya. I'd really want to avoid that in Inquisition, if I can.

 

The creepiest part of identity politics in my view and perusing of history is when an ideology makes an exclusive claim to being people. When a group marks itself synonymous with 'person', the outsiders aren't simply other people: they can very quickly become 'not-people.' Not-people is a very, very dangerous concept: it's a (forgive the racial anachronism) dehumanizing exclusionary label that rests on a very slippery slope. Viewing your group as 'the people' goes hand-in-hand with viewing outsiders as 'not the people', which is less than a stone throw's away with 'not a person.'

 

Someone who is not People and not a Person is a dehumanized thing. Things can be treated in any manner of way, especially if they are dangerous things, but it's a significant bias to overcome and treat a Thing as a Person. And if you don't... well, things don't warrant the same treatment or considerations as People.

 

The current Dalish aren't quite at that level- they're still indulging in labeling the outsiders Quick Children. But it's a middle ground none the less: Children aren't Things,  but nor are they People in the a concept of equals or others.

 

If there was one underlying facet of their culture I believe the Dalish would benefit from more than anything else, it would be the monopolization of People. Humans and City Elves and Qunari are people to- and not just on an intellectual level.

[Mistic]

I remember the children from the City Elf Origin talking about how they didn't know of any elven heroes, and I could imagine an elven Inquisitor telling them about Shartan battling the Imperium alongside freed elven slaves, Iloren fighting the darkspawn in the Anderfels during the Second Blight, and Garahel uniting the Free Marches to stop the Fourth Blight.

 

You know, the tale of Iloren always seemed suspicious. I mean, the protagonist was a keeper of a clan just like the Dalish, but we know that the Dalish didn't exist yet since the Dales still existed during the Second Blight. Also, the story takes place in the Anderfels, not the Dales. I always wonder if the developers mistook it with the Third Blight.

 

Also, always wanted to know if Garahel was City Elf or Dalish. My bet is on the first, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

The creepiest part of identity politics in my view and perusing of history is when an ideology makes an exclusive claim to being people. When a group marks itself synonymous with 'person', the outsiders aren't simply other people: they can very quickly become 'not-people.' Not-people is a very, very dangerous concept: it's a (forgive the racial anachronism) dehumanizing exclusionary label that rests on a very slippery slope. Viewing your group as 'the people' goes hand-in-hand with viewing outsiders as 'not the people', which is less than a stone throw's away with 'not a person.'

 

Someone who is not People and not a Person is a dehumanized thing. Things can be treated in any manner of way, especially if they are dangerous things, but it's a significant bias to overcome and treat a Thing as a Person. And if you don't... well, things don't warrant the same treatment or considerations as People.

 

True. Labelling people as 'not-people' isn't even a new thing in Thedas. After all, the Qunari call literally "bas" (thing) those who are outside the Qun. They even recognize "things worthy of respect" (basalit-an) and "dangerous things" (saarebas). Yep, very creepy.

 

The most disturbing thing about the Dalish monopolizing the word Elvhen/People is not that it leaves out humans, dwarves or qunari, but that it leaves out the City Elves. You know, the same People as them, according to the original definition of the word. I would be willing to accept 'Elvhenan', since it's the word they use to name the ancient elven civilization and they consider themselves the keepers of its lore, but the name for the whole race? That is insulting to the City Elves (Fenris points it out).

 

Maybe I'm a bit too harsh right now, but it was a nasty realization.

[LobselVith8]

You know, the tale of Iloren always seemed suspicious. I mean, the protagonist was a keeper of a clan just like the Dalish, but we know that the Dalish didn't exist yet since the Dales still existed during the Second Blight. Also, the story takes place in the Anderfels, not the Dales. I always wonder if the developers mistook it with the Third Blight.

 

I figured Iloren and his people could have been in the Anderfels for a number of reasons, like researching ancient ruins or looking for clues about their ancestors, given how Elvhenan existed all across Thedas.

 

Also, always wanted to know if Garahel was City Elf or Dalish. My bet is on the first, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

I'm curious about that as well, but he's an elven hero, either way. It's a shame that he was forgotten about by so many people.

 

True. Labelling people as 'not-people' isn't even a new thing in Thedas. After all, the Qunari call literally "bas" (thing) those who are outside the Qun. They even recognize "things worthy of respect" (basalit-an) and "dangerous things" (saarebas). Yep, very creepy.

 

The most disturbing thing about the Dalish monopolizing the word Elvhen/People is not that it leaves out humans, dwarves or qunari, but that it leaves out the City Elves. You know, the same People as them, according to the original definition of the word. I would be willing to accept 'Elvhenan', since it's the word they use to name the ancient elven civilization and they consider themselves the keepers of its lore, but the name for the whole race? That is insulting to the City Elves (Fenris points it out).

 

Maybe I'm a bit too harsh right now, but it was a nasty realization.

 

Technically, Elvhen translates to "Our People". The Common Tongue usage of 'the People' is reminiscent to me of how some Native Americans historically used the term for their people.

[Cat Fancy]

The real question, for me, is if such an individual would be allowed to remain with their clan.  Given how Merrill's clan kicked her out over a difference of opinion, and her statement that lone elves are easy prey, a Dalish elf atheist might be difficult to find.  They might mouth the words as a matter of survival rather than express their true beliefs and be a pariah.

They kicked Merrill out because they thought she was doing something very ill-advised and dangerous (to both herself and, potentially, the clan). I'm not sure they'd see atheism the same way they see blood magic, but they might.

[Mistic]

Technically, Elvhen translates to "Our People". The Common Tongue usage of 'the People' is reminiscent to me of how some Native Americans historically used the term for their people.

 

True. However, they also use "the People" as a common-tongue equivalent even if the real translation is "our people". And some still use both terms to leave out the City Elves. That's not fair.

[LobselVith8]

True. However, they also use "the People" as a common-tongue equivalent even if the real translation is "our people". And some still use both terms to leave out the City Elves. That's not fair.

 

It isn't fair, but it isn't unique to the Dalish. Some city elves basically look down on elves who try to live outside the Alienage, for example. Like hahren Sarethia of the Highever Alienage wrote, "Here, we're among family. We look out for each other. Here, we do what we can to remember the old ways. The flat-ears who have gone out there, they're stuck. They'll never be human, and they've gone and thrown away being elven, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere."