2 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Yes, they have more content than gay characters because straight men sometimes play as a lesbian as well. But I can't agree with you that lesbians are less targeted than gay men "in Bioware games". Juhani, the first "lesbian" character wasn't a titillation to straight men at all. I know, her romance was very shallow, but at least it was there. No romance for gay dudes however. The first bisexual woman I remember was Silk Fox from Jade Empire who had very unique lesbian dialogue. It wasn't a copy and paste job. she's certainly no further sexy female character for straight men. She was a strong woman, who discovered her bisexual side if you played as a female, and it was very well done. Besides that, she was much more story relevated than the bisexual male character, Sky. Same with Liara. She wasn't some hot Asari chick to romance. She was nerdy, cute and grew up stronger during the games. The lesbian romance with her might not vary very much from the heterosexual one, but she was clearly enjoyable if you romanced her as a female. And she was very story relevated as well. She had a bigger appearance in the game series than the bisexual male character, Kaidan. Also Leliana was done well. Okay, people always complained about Leliana having no romance banter if you romanced her as a female character. But I romanced both Zevran and Leliana with the same sex. And none of them seemed less developed or enjoyable than the other one. Next characters; Merrill and Isabela: People who complain about Isabela could also complain about Zevran. I don't see how it works. And there's no difference between Merrill and Fenris. Both of them seem to be very playersexual. I never played Baldurs Gate, so I can't say anything about that game. But the only lesbian character I saw that seemed to be like a titillation was Samantha. And even Samantha had more character flaws and sympathy from my side than the generic Steve.

by the way: I only talk about Bioware games. Most other games don't have gay characters at all, and lesbians primarily for the reaons you mentioned.

Of course, the fact that only ManShep (and automatically, by the extension FemShep who didn't romance her) got to really know her character, not FemShep who was in relationship with her (her players actually got much less content, mostly when it comes to important, character-building dialogues), strongly suggests that she was from the beginning created with straight men in mind, not lesbians. Steve may be "boring", but his sexuality as a gay man was always treated with full respect and he wasn't for straight yaoi fans' pleasure.



Fallout New Vegas had perks that allowed gay and lesbian, as well as straight male/straight female conversations with certain NPCs. And guess what, lesbians got significantly less such conversations than gay men, not to mention that their options usually just directed to conversation you could achieve anyway by passing some attribute test, while most gay male conversation options had special content.

It's really starting to remind situation of lesbians and gay men in other media, where gay men are treated as "the real deal", while all the others are pushed aside and ridiculed. According to GLAAD reports, there are more gay male characters in TV than the whole LBT combined. And their sexuality is generally treated with respect, while overwhelming majority of lesbian characters just have to have sex with men, and usually look like they enjoy it, reinforcing incredibly damaging homophobic myths about lesbian sexuality. Interestingly, many such storylines come from gay men as showrunners or headwriters. Few months ago, when "lesbian sleeping with a man" trope happened in "Hannibal", gay showrunner even used his sexuality to silence the criticism from lesbian audience.

I never played Fallout New Vegas, only BioWare games, so I can't say anything about that game. But I don't agree with you that gay sexuality is treated more respectfully than lesbian sexuality. On the contrary, lots of gay characters are represented as very ridiculous and overly feminine sex addicted jokes, whereas lesbian characters are often described more adequat or realistically. I agree though that in media, gay sexuality is more present than lesbian sexuality. But unfortunately, in a negative way very often.

Lesbian characters in TV are almost entirely femme. How is that more adequate and realistic? BTW, IIRC that was the argument of Bryan Fuller, showrunner of Hannibal, why he changed butch, body-building lesbian from the book into femme - to not reinforce negative stereotypes. And then he made her have sex with a man, which didn't have place in book. Of course, he had excuse - she just wanted to get pregnant. But for some reason, he also had to make her look like she was really into the sex.

And I would argue that the fact that overwhelming majority of lesbian characters sleep with men (like I said, usually looking like it's quite enjoyable experience for them; at least 6th TV show since the end of last year did it about month ago) is much worse, because aside of making our sexuality look like a joke, it reinforces the most damaging myths that fuel sexual hassassment and so called "corrective" rapes on lesbians.

I still think Sera won't be a titillation for straight men. She seems very smart and funny, and a little mouthy as well. I think she'll be a really great character and no comparison to Samantha. People shouldn't fear her treatment.

I won't agree to this, sorry. I saw lots of lesbian characters who were just as normal as other women (not described as butch or femme), whereas I saw lots of gay characters who were represented as pussys and wimps. There are far more gay people killed and abused than lesbians. Even justified by law in some countries. There are countries which punish lesbians and gays equally, but in more countries gay people have fewer rights when it comes to law. And even in areas where homosexuality is allowed, gays have a worse status than lesbians. And TV is at fault too, because gay characters are so badly and stereotypically represented. So I think gays are much worse treated than lesbians. But I think, we'll not find an agreement on this. So to each his own.

That there are more bisexual women than lesbians in TV is something I agree with, also that there are more gays than bisexual men.

I recall you saying that most players who did Leliana f/f romance were apparently straight men. Maybe that's why Traynor's content looked like it looked like. But I'm not so sure that straight men who do F/F romances are some stereotypical jocks. Those would rather never play as female on the first place.

I remember my surprise when seeing during some rant on Twitter due to yet another instance of "lesbian sleeping with a man" trope happening in yet another show, that quite a few apparently straight men (with accounts looking valid) were pissed off because of that situation and were calling out people who were responsible for their sexism and homophobia. And they pointed out at shows with positive lesbian representation, like OITNB.

So, straight men being fans of lesbian storylines and calling out for "lesbian sleeping with a man" trope. I wonder if it isn't rather such men who did that romance. So if devs try to appeal to them, then they need to appeal to us, lesbians, on the first place.

[Maria Caliban]

Criag sent me a bunch of posts that he'd hidden, but I don't know where they go in the timeline, and I've had to guess about the formatting. Sorry. :/

misoretu9
Posted Yesterday, 01:20 PM
LiaraShepard, on 17 Jul 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:
I won't agree to this, sorry. I saw lots of lesbian characters who were just as normal as other women (not described as butch or femme), whereas I saw lots of gay characters who were represented as pussys and wimps. There are far more gay people killed and abused than lesbians. Even justified by law in some countries. There are countries which punish lesbians and gays equally, but in more countries gay people have fewer rights when it comes to law. And even in areas where homosexuality is allowed, gays have a worse status than lesbians. And TV is at fault too, because gay characters are so badly and stereotypically represented. So I think gays are much worse treated than lesbians. But I think, we'll not find an agreement on this. So to each his own.

1. "Normal as other women" (especially when it comes to TV female characters) means just femme. Extreme femme is called apparently "high maintenance femme".

2. If you claim such things, that there are far more gay men killed and abused than lesbians, prove it. In some countries male homosexuality is punished by law, and female not, but only because women are usually treated like object of property in those countries, so it's not considered as something that "corrective" rape wouldn't "fix" anyway.
And for reminder, I was talking about situation in western television, pointing out at GLAAD reports and my own observations (I can post my incomplete list of shows and movies with "lesbian sleeping with a man" trope if you wish).
For now, it looks like you just won't agree that gay men could have it better in ANY way than lesbians, so you started pointing out at real life situation, as if that was something that justified mistreatment of lesbians in Television.


EDIT
Jamaica is an example of a country with laws that penalize only male homosexuality. Yet the reality for lesbians isn't good at all:
"Amnesty has received reports of specific acts of violence against lesbians, namely rape and other forms of sexual violence. There are reports of lesbians being attacked on the grounds of ‘mannish’ physical appearance or other visible ‘signs’ of sexuality. Some reports of abduction and rape emanate from inner-city communities, where local NGOs have already expressed concerns about high incidences of violence against women."

http://www.gaytimes....icleid-357.html

And another article:

"while prejudice and violence against gay men have hit the headlines following Williamson's murder (...) the plight of lesbians in Jamaica has not attracted the same attention. Yet their lives are no less difficult: in a strongly-worded statement issued in June, Amnesty International highlighted the growing problem of vigilante action against gays and lesbians, and of their ill treatment and torture at the hands of the police."

"Even speaking out anonymously can place a gay woman at risk. According to a recent report from the London-based charity Asylum Aid, one woman who appeared on a television show to speak (from behind a screen) about the persecution she had endured because of her sexuality was verbally abused and assaulted. "The following day, a co-worker who had recognised her voice went as far as beating her up," states the report. "Other women suspected of being lesbians have been raped and chased out of their homes and communities."

http://www.theguardi...ayrights.gender

LiaraShepard

misoretu9, on 17 Jul 2014 - 1:20 PM, said:
1. "Normal as other women" (especially when it comes to TV female characters) means just femme. Extreme femme is called apparently "high maintenance femme".

2. If you claim such things, that there are far more gay men killed and abused than lesbians, prove it. In some countries male homosexuality is punished by law, and female not, but only because women are usually treated like object of property in those countries, so it's not considered as something that "corrective" rape wouldn't "fix" anyway.
And for reminder, I was talking about situation in western television, pointing out at GLAAD reports and my own observations (I can post my incomplete list of shows and movies with "lesbian sleeping with a man" trope if you wish).
For now, it looks like you just won't agree that gay men could have it better in ANY way than lesbians, so you started pointing out at real life situation, as if that was something that justified mistreatment of lesbians in Television.

Sorry, but I could say the same about you. You were the first one who came up with the comparison to the rape scenario in real life. If you're allowed to bring this up, I'm allowed to give examples as well. Plus, you don't agree either that lesbians could have it better than gay men in some extent. And I don't know why you came up with a number 1 point to explain me what feminity means. I know what I mean with feminity. Or would you say lesbians are less described as feminine than heterosexual women? I bearly see lesbians in TV who acts overly feminine or like butches, whereas there are many gay characters who are presented like women. Sorry, I'f I'm bad at explaining myself. I'm not good in speaking foreign languages. But it doesn't change the message I said.

That lots of gay men are worse treated in many countries is no secret. Just look at the countrys who have death penalty. There are more countries where male homosexuality will be punished with death or prison than lesbian sexuality. You'll find it on wikipedia for example.

Here are some examples:

In Guyana, same-sex activity between women is legal, but for men: “Any male person, who in public or private, commits, or is a party to the commission, or procures or attempts to procure the commission, by any male person, of an act of gross indecency with any other male person shall be guilty of misdemeanor and liable to imprisonment for two years.” Also, “Everyone who commits buggery, either with a human being or with any other living creature, shall be guilty of felony and liable to imprisonment for life.

In Papau New Guinea, it is an “unnatural offense” for a person to permit “a male person to sexually penetrate him or her against the order of nature,” and the penalty is imprisonment for up to 14 years. Men are also liable to a possible three years in prison for “indecent sexual practices between males.”

The Maldives follow Shariah, which criminalizes homosexual acts. For women, a conviction results in house arrest for nine months to a year; for men, a conviction results in banishment for nine months to a year or a whipping of up to 30 strokes.

Mauritania is one of four African countries where same-sex relations between men can result in the death penalty. According toArticle 308, “Any adult Muslim man who commits an indecent act or an act against nature with an individual of his sex will face the penalty of death by public stoning.”

Despite its wording, Mauritius’ law regarding sodomy and bestiality apparently only applies to men: “Any person who is guilty of the crime of sodomy or bestiality shall be liable to penal servitude for a term not exceeding 5 years.” There has been recent debate about repealing the law altogether."

Several states in the northern part of Nigeria operate under Shariah, which rules homosexuality as punishable by death for men and whipping and/or imprisonment for women. Throughout the rest of the country, anti-gay laws carry a possible 14-year jail sentence (or seven for “attempt”). As of June 2013, it is also illegal for Nigerians to join “gay clubs or organizations,” punishable by up to 10 years."

According to Sudanese law, “Any man who inserts his p... or its equivalent into a woman’s or a man’s anus or permitted another man to insert his p... or its equivalent in his anus is said to have committed Sodomy.” The first time a person is convicted under this law, he will be flogged with 100 lashes and potentially sent to prison sentenced to five years in prison; the second, 100 more lashes and a certain prison term, again up to five years. A third conviction can result in life in prison or the death penalty.

http://www.buzzfeed....s-or-worse-than


And I never said there's no point were lesbians are worse treated. It's only your false interpretation of what I said.

and to avoid misunderstandings. I'm a woman and I like lesbian relationships in video games. I always play them in Bioware games and I really enjoy them there. So, please don't say this as if I have something against this group. -.- I just don't understand people who complain about the lesbian romances in Bioware games as if they were badly handled.

misoretu9
Posted Yesterday, 02:05 PM
LiaraShepard, on 17 Jul 2014 - 1:42 PM, said:


That lots of gay men are worse treated in many countries is no secret. Just look at the countrys who have death penalty. There are more countries where male homosexuality will be punished with death or prison than lesbian sexuality. You'll find it on wikipedia for example.

I looked into Wikipedia, and according to it all countries with death penalty for homosexuality have it for women as well as men.

And as for countries that penalize male but not female homosexuality, read my previous post in case you missed my edit, which included informations about Jamaica, showing how much "better" situation of lesbians is there.

What I really disliked in your post was that it reminded me the usual, undermining public perceptions of situation of lesbians - "oh, but gay men have it worse". I hear it all the time. Even during discussions about television, when facts clearly show something completely opposite.

EDIT
BTW, that's the wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia....ry_or_territory

And that article you brought is perfect example of putting lesbians aside. For example, that mention of Sudanese laws about death penalty for male homosexuality?

According to wiki Sudan has Death penalty for men on third offense. Death penalty on fourth offense for women.

LiaraShepard
Posted Yesterday, 02:21 PM

misoretu9, on 17 Jul 2014 - 2:05 PM, said:
I looked into Wikipedia, and according to it all countries with death penalty for homosexuality have it for women as well as men.

And as for countries that penalize male but not female homosexuality, read my previous post in case you missed my edit, which included informations about Jamaica, showing how much "better" situation of lesbians is there.

What I really disliked in your post was that it reminded me the usual, undermining public perceptions of situation of lesbians - "oh, but gay men have it worse". I hear it all the time. Even during discussions about television, when facts clearly show something completely opposite.

I posted a link below to give some help in research.

And to clarify: I never said lesbians have a great life in society. On the contrary, I believe your rape argument. I just say one thing: I think gay people have it even much worse than lesbians, although lesbians have it already really bad! your example says the same "Jamaica is an example of a country with laws that penalize only male homosexuality. "

I believe you that a lot of lesbians are abused in Jamaica, but that's the same with homosexual males. The difference is, that homosexual males are penalized by law in addition to this.

EDIT: Sorry, but I can't answer to your statement below, because I don't know what third and forth offense means and what's worse. But it sounds as third offense is worse. And if so, it'd be the next evidence, that gay people have it even much worse than lesbians.

misoretu9
Posted Yesterday, 03:07 PM
LiaraShepard, on 17 Jul 2014 - 2:21 PM, said:

And to clarify: I never said lesbians have a great life in society. On the contrary, I believe your rape argument. I just say one thing: I think gay people have it even much worse than lesbians, although lesbians have it already really bad!

For reminder, this discussion started with you not agreeing with statement that lesbians have it worse than gay men when it comes to representation in western television and when facing hard facts (GLAAD reports showing that gay men have much, much larger visibility, or that most lesbian characters fall under incredibly damaging "lesbian sleeping with a man" trope), you turned to "but gay men are punished by law in many countries, while lesbians aren't!".

I personally don't think gay men have it better or worse when it comes to real-life situation and that wasn't part of my argument about TV representation.
First of all, displays of homophobia that affect gay women and gay men are largely different and connected to perceptions about masculinity and femininity.
Second of all, don't forget that lesbians are women on the first place. What is the situation of men vs situation of women in all those homophobic countries, including those that punish men more? I recall from reading different reports that those countries have terrible problem (which isn't considered as "problem") with violence against women on its own.

It's really rude to lecture a woman who's corrective rape survivor that her plight is not as bad as some other people's, that gay men have it worse than me, that I suffer from "better", less harmful kind of homophobia.

[Maria Caliban]

LiaraShepard
Posted Yesterday, 11:03 PM

misoretu9, on 17 Jul 2014 - 3:07 PM, said:
For reminder, this discussion started with you not agreeing with statement that lesbians have it worse than gay men when it comes to representation in western television and when facing hard facts (GLAAD reports showing that gay men have much, much larger visibility, or that most lesbian characters fall under incredibly damaging "lesbian sleeping with a man" trope), you turned to "but gay men are punished by law in many countries, while lesbians aren't!".

you turn my words up and down which I don't like. I agreed with you that gay men ar more visible in TV shows, I even agreed that there are more bisexual women in TV than bisexual men. AND I agreed that lots of lesbians are raped in countries as Jamaica and that they live under bad circumstances. But I still have my point. I think gay men are worse represented in television shows. AND I I did mention the law punishment because you made the real life reference to rape. So don't blame me for that. I never said lesbians have a great life in society, and there are points they suffer different. I never said something against it. I just have my point. I think gays have it even worse in society.

and I didn't started the conversation. The general discussion started with someone who mentioned Samantha was worse represented than Steve and only a titillation, which I don't agree with. Bioware makes good lesbian and bisexual characters. They could have done better with Samantha (even this point I agreed with), but I think she's still not worse than Steve. Steve was described as the boring gay guy with dead ex boyfriend issues and without personality. Not better if you ask me.

Chari
Posted Yesterday, 11:38 PM
My 2 cents: gay men in media and not just western get treated much worse than lesbians due to common belief that "it is just a silly phase" and "lesbs are hot" since mostly men control the media and an image of two chicks kissing turns many of then on. Gay men for some reason get treated like a treason, a danger to society and the most disgustimg thing ever. Prolly cuz dudes dont want to be treated like they treat women.
Hence there are less taboos about addings bis/lesbs in art and though majority of such characters are walking stereotypes at least some are quite wellwritten. Even Bioware, the most lgbtfriendly devs as far as I remember, added a gay LI for the first time in ME3 while bisexual chicks were there since DAO and ME1
Just my two cents