38 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Luminous]

I understand I have friends who are afraid of cats, snakes, dogs, humans, ghosts and (insert the creature of choice). If you try to remove or make optional all of the animals and human encounters the party would be fighting or talking to air (pardon to those with Anemophobia).

 

I wish games could cater to everyone's needs, but given resources that is not possible, but there is very little reason to include puzzles with out an alternative way to get around them.

 

Hence why we have walkthroughs.

 

I'm just saying, if you think certain content shouldn't be removed because player's don't like whatever it is, then that rule should apply across the board to all content. 

[Lady Luminous]

I feel your pain...  it seems like the spiders just keep getting bigger and more detailed in each game... ugh...

 

But on topic, I really feel as though any riddles in the game should be impossible to solve unless the PC or a party member possesses sufficient cunning.  Otherwise, we're free to either check the internet or use knowledge from a prior playthrough to answer.  The cunning checks were a good addition to DA:O, and IMO that should have extended to the riddles in the Gauntlet.

 

I do like the idea of a cunning check-point, but only as long as there are options to move on if you don't pass the check.

 

I would hate having to reload a save and use tomes or re-level up my cunning scores just to get past a puzzle. 

[Lady Luminous]

Absolutely.  Include stuff I'm no good at, I'll find a way around or look it up if there's no other way around.  Saying I don't enjoy something is no reason to say others shouldn't.  Knowing I'm not good at something doesn't stop me from enjoying what I am good at.  Since I'm good at riddles, I'll be thrilled.  I won't be very happy about puzzles, but I'll find a way past so I can enjoy the rest.

 

Exactly. When I was younger I used to buy the book walkthroughs just in case I ran into trouble. It was usually Pokemon or Banjo Kazooie in those days.

[Icy Magebane]

I do like the idea of a cunning check-point, but only as long as there are options to move on if you don't pass the check.

 

I would hate having to reload a save and use tomes or re-level up my cunning scores just to get past a puzzle. 

No, this would just be for situations like the Gauntlet, where if you get the spirit's riddle wrong, it turns into an ash wraith and attacks.  IMO puzzles should always be optional.  The one in the Stone Prisoner was cool because it was only one of many different ways to deal with Kitty.  There was one in DA:A that I never solved, but that was fine because it was completely optional.

[Lady Luminous]

No, this would just be for situations like the Gauntlet, where if you get the spirit's riddle wrong, it turns into an ash wraith and attacks.  IMO puzzles should always be optional.  The one in the Stone Prisoner was cool though, because it was only one of many different ways to deal with Kitty.

 

Oh it does that? Cool! I've always gotten them right, because I'm a word geek. 

 

I loved having like 4 different ways to deal with Kitty, there were some really good alternatives in that scenario,  I think. 

[Realmzmaster]

Hence why we have walkthroughs.

 

I'm just saying, if you think certain content shouldn't be removed because player's don't like whatever it is, then that rule should apply across the board to all content. 

 

I did not say remove the puzzles or riddles. I said to make them optional or provide another way around them in the game. That is simply a matter of game design.

For example, I am roleplaying a low intelligence character. That character should unable to solve the puzzle or riddle. Realmzmaster (I) would have no problem solving the puzzle.The only way to solve the puzzle is for me to jump out of character or end the game there.

 

Let's I am roleplaying a highly intelligent character and Realmzmaster cannot solve the problem, but my character should be able to solve it.

I am therefore stuck until I come on the forum to find a solution or ask someone else assuming someone has solved it.

 

 Give me options and allow my character to decide what option to take.

[Lady Luminous]

I did not say remove the puzzles or riddles. I said to make them optional or provide another way around them in the game. That is simply a matter of game design.

For example, I am roleplaying a low intelligence character. That character should unable to solve the puzzle or riddle. Realmzmaster (I) would have no problem solving the puzzle.The only way to solve the puzzle is for me to jump out of character or end the game there.

 

Let's I am roleplaying a highly intelligent character and Realmzmaster cannot solve the problem, but my character should be able to solve it.

I am therefore stuck until I come on the forum to find a solution or ask someone else assuming someone has solved it.

 

 Give me options and allow my character to decide what option to take.

Well, I'm obviously not going to argue against multiple options, since that's basically my favourite part of DA. 

[Magdalena11]

@realmzmaster - I really liked the few cunning and persuade checks in DAO.  That's what I figure those were.  Based on the dialog given, I never would have chosen the wording selected, so I just mentally added an image of the DM rolling dice.  You don't know whether or not it's going to work, but you'll rely on your stats.  So hoping this feature makes a comeback.

[Nayawk]

I agree that options are the best way to go about this. I would also be happy with optional side quest puzzles, want to role play a slow witted character, the main story is not blocked but a side quest might be.  

 

In DA, because it is a party game I always just role play it that if my PC wouldn't be able to solve it she has Wynne or someone like that to help push her in the right direction. So it isn't a case of me the player stepping into the world and breaking immersion, it is the character receiving in game help from her party, which the characters voice hints do anyway.  

[Sidney]

See, really even options are silly. They are better than I can't do the compsci101 towers of hanoi puzzle but in reality you are again displacing your character's ability for your own in doing the puzzles. Why have a lockpicking skill why not just let players pick a lock? Why have PC driven combat instead just let the player handle comba. Obbviously something, like Syrim did the latter 2 which is why those games annoying the hades out of me because my character is really not all that important to my success in the game.

[Amfortas]

Kotor did the multiple options perfectly on Manaan, when you had to enter the sith base. You had 3 options: persuasion, math or combat. I don't remember anything like that in dragon age.

But I see those options as a way to customize your playthrough and improve the roleplaying experience, more than as a way for players to skip content they don't like. Even if it may be used that way.

And again I'm absolutely against putting riddles and puzzles as side quests because some players don't enjoy them, whine on the forums or whatever.

As for the riddles, I don't like them since they become pretty trivial once you have to give the player the possible answers. Logic and easy math problems are way more interesting in my opinion.

[Neon Rising Winter]

See, really even options are silly. They are better than I can't do the compsci101 towers of hanoi puzzle but in reality you are again displacing your character's ability for your own in doing the puzzles. Why have a lockpicking skill why not just let players pick a lock? Why have PC driven combat instead just let the player handle comba. Obbviously something, like Syrim did the latter 2 which is why those games annoying the hades out of me because my character is really not all that important to my success in the game.

I'd say these games are about testing player skill with some modification based on their character design. If not, all combat would be auto resolved by the numbers without any pesky player intervention. Personally I get more satisfaction from a combination of designing a good character and then playing it well rather than have things be purely dependent on the character design. The problem with riddles though is they end up being entirely based on the player. Even lock picking mini games can be made easier or harder based on character stats, but riddles are trickier. I suppose you could factor in character traits and skills affecting the information you receive to solve them.

Now personally I think a couple of lightweight riddles/ logic puzzles are a nice change of pace, but then I think back to the days of unexpected shooter mini games in my RPGs and feel more sympathetic towards people who dislike them.

To anyone after something needing serious thought though, I recommend giving The Secret World a spin. There's some wonderful little brain teasers in there.

[Sidney]

I'd say these games are about testing player skill with some modification based on their character design. If not, all combat would be auto resolved by the numbers without any pesky player intervention. Personally I get more satisfaction from a combination of designing a good character and then playing it well rather than have things be purely dependent on the character design. The problem with riddles though is they end up being entirely based on the player. Even lock picking mini games can be made easier or harder based on character stats, but riddles are trickier. I suppose you could factor in character traits and skills affecting the information you receive to solve them.

Now personally I think a couple of lightweight riddles/ logic puzzles are a nice change of pace, but then I think back to the days of unexpected shooter mini games in my RPGs and feel more sympathetic towards people who dislike them.

To anyone after something needing serious thought though, I recommend giving The Secret World a spin. There's some wonderful little brain teasers in there.

 

 

Well combat is really about you using your character in DA. You tell him - attack that and he does. Just like you say pick that lock or persuade that guard and he does it. Yes, you have to use him properly based on how you develop him but he does the heavy lifting.  You can't say "solve that riddle"....because otherwise it is no longer a riddle.

 

You say shooter mini-games I have a hate filled flashtoward the turret game in KoTOR.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Well combat is really about you using your character in DA. You tell him - attack that and he does. Just like you say pick that lock or persuade that guard and he does it. Yes, you have to use him properly based on how you develop him but he does the heavy lifting.  You can't say "solve that riddle"....because otherwise it is no longer a riddle.

 

You say shooter mini-games I have a hate filled flashtoward the turret game in KoTOR.

My point about combat is that it's still very dependent on player skill. Take two players using exactly the same build, give them the same fight, you'll likely get different results. Possibly extremely different. It's just combat is so core to the game there's functionality to ameliorate potential problems there, e.g. the difficulty level.

 

If riddles were so fundamental to the game and got as many resources thrown at them I reckon we'd see analogous systems develop for the less skilled riddlers among us. Academic, because they're not a core system, but I don't think fundamentally impossible. Despite which I still think the odd brainteaser or two is nice, and unlike unexpected shooter moments (you read my mind there btw), you can get Google to get you past them if it's really not for you.