476 réponses à ce sujet

[Jukaga]

Yeah, it was significantly larger on the inside than the outside.

 

I'm told Baba Yaga was the interior designer.

[Isac23]

Arcian,

 

Your analysis of Cerberus and points given are well taken.  Thank you.   I believe however, any challenge to the player requires a REALLY BAD villain.   Reapers are powerful but in my view -- boring in that they are “machines that can be broken”.    I’m surprised nukes weren’t used or some sort of fusion-warhead missile.  This would become boring (to me) if it were just [metallic] reapers needing conquering with superior firepower.

 

Alternatively, we CAN and DO relate to bad guys – especially the darker side of humans.    For the Turians, Salerians, Krogans and the Geth reading this thread  -- we humans have a dark history of those skilled in deceit, treachery, greed, avarice, & genocide -- to the tune of Niccolò Machiavelli

 

One fact I’ve learned in business is you give the customer what he/she WANTS.   That’s not clearly defined and certainly differs [obviously] from person to person in a game – however there is a certain “list” of things COMMON to all humans.   Expounding on that “list” is beyond the scope of your thread – and I’m a stickler for keeping ON TRACK since about 80% of posters only quote-and-gripe, quote-and-slander, or talk about other games & movies that are totally irrelevant to the thread purpose (my thread is like that now).

 

In ME1, Cerberus was (to me) an enigma; strange, weird, questionable, but had a scientific purpose.   ME2 played up BIG on three things on that “list”: 

 

(1) Injustice of the jackass council and

(2) The warm and fuzzy feeling you got being “cared for” as TIM’s “most important resource” at the time (“disposable tool” later).   Almost respectable in ME2 since the Council are “weeds of the galaxy”.

(3) Romance 

 

Anybody’s WILD fantasy!   Your own (most advanced) new starship, honor, respect, money, women, powerful weapons, interesting assignments, romances (you couldn’t achieve in real life), and galaxy-changing accomplishments (as compared to mowing the lawn in real life).  No wonder why folks still play after 2 years & counting.

 

THAT COMPLICATED?:  I've played adventure games containing some puzzles (like Tomb Raider & Splinter Cell).  Alternatively, there are PURELY puzzles games (like the Myst series) that appeal to mostly adults because kids don't have the patience & kids like to shoot everything that moves.  In perspective, the ME series is mostly just FUN to play with light on the puzzles & some compelling drama in places.  In contrast, the "Indoctrination Theory" supposes [very] complex & parallel undertones that would exist in [very] complex puzzle games like Myst-4.   I can’t see such a radical switch as has been suggested in other threads.

 

OVER ANALYSIS:  There’s lots of GOOFY things in the game that I let ride (except the ending).   Think about it:  gravity & human medkits on a Geth dreadnaught.  Reapers not “adjusting” the Mass Relays during harvest time (using only IFF) which would stop any enemy (us) in their tracks.   Hearing laser fire & explosions in a vacuum.   Lots of forum talk about “he is in open space”.  Ever notice when the Normandy pulls into doc, you see the WHITE atmosphere-retaining barrier it goes thru?   Too much nit-picking (“gee, look what I thought of!”).

 

Yes, in ME3 Cerberus is the “fly in the ointment” – resisting you at every turn & needs “to be kicked in the balls”.   After 6 hours into ME3, I was so infuriated with TIM, that I went back into ME2, blew up the collector base and restarted ME3 again.   Yes I’m emotional – I’m not a potted plant (and on that point, I don’t hide behind my screen and throw rocks at folks – as done by some skateboarders on this forum). 

 

Cerberus “has noble goals” – the problem is that TIM is the evil crony that should be dethroned and replaced by someone more “noble”.   The Council is always at the top of my SH*T list.   TIM is #2.   But consider how void the game would be without these obstacles to overcome.

 

Initially I was going to trash ME3 after the first play then I decided to enjoy 99% of the great gameplay and ignore the 1% moron ending.   Now on my 5^th play.  Players have GOT to allow some stupid stuff to make the game FLOW and not so OVER analyze & nitpick the thing to death (as in Myst-4).      If not Cerberus, then some other [similar] bad villain-thing-organization that you’d be referring to.

 

I agree with this.

 

You have to suspend disbelief for a lot of entertainment these days if you want to get any enjoyment out of them. I never really had a problem with Cerberus being so overly rich and powerful. I noticed it, but figured it was worth suspending disbelief so I could continue enjoying the story.

 

That being said, I did think too much emphasis was placed on Cerberus in ME3 and not enough on the Reapers.

Enough to break the game for me? No.

[Dale]

So why was Cerberus not a terrorist organization?


Would the state-sanctioned assassination of Barack Obama by North Korea be acceptable?

There is no difference.

Psychevore,

I enjoy a good debate -- but you're whipping a dead horse.  

Don't let him lead you around and play his mind games.   You're too smart to waste time on him.

[Dale]

 

 

 

It's pretty difficult to argue with someone who just wants to bury his head in the sand regarding the glaring invalidity of the Normandy's retrofit design.

 

You don't seem to give ANY blame to BioWare.

 

I have never gotten the feeling people have avoided to argue with me, or that they don't take me seriously. On the contrary, I find that some people are a little bit too eager to argue with me and that they take me more seriously than they should.

 

Within the context of this discussion, my only concern is that you don't have a scathing remark against their failure or inability to research proper ship design. That's the problem. You believe the notion of inept engineers working on the Normandy retrofits is acceptable within the story. I take offense to that. because that notion makes no sense, and nonsense has no place in a narrative (unless it is for comedic effect). I believe Mass Effect 3 deserved better.

 

They are not in-universe flaws. The Normandy retrofits weren't wildly inefficient because the engineers were written to be complete retards, they were wildly inefficient because the designers and writers didn't research proper ship design. For some reason, you have a strong aversion to accepting this fact. Of course this leads me to assume you're a BioWare apologist who refuses to give them their due criticism.

 

Arcian,

 

.....not a debate.   Don't waste your time.    Avail yourself of the IGNORE feature like I have.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Yeah, it was significantly larger on the inside than the outside.

 

 

Ever notice how the houses in Skyrim are so small on the outside yet so large on the inside? Wow. I don't know how they do that. It seems the other way around in real life. The house seems bigger on the outside yet so small on the inside. Why is that?

[Dale]

Ever notice how the houses in Skyrim are so small on the outside yet so large on the inside? Wow. I don't know how they do that. It seems the other way around in real life. The house seems bigger on the outside yet so small on the inside. Why is that?

 

The Dr Who phonebooth phenomena.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

The Dr Who phonebooth phenomena.

 

It's called 'bigger on the inside'

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Psychevore,

I enjoy a good debate -- but you're whipping a dead horse.  

Don't let him lead you around and play his mind games.   You're too smart to waste time on him.

 

That's actually conceding to lose an argument Dale. Just because you don't like me personally does not mean that I am inherently stupid or that someone is wasting time talking to me. 

[XXIceColdXX]

Nice opening post.

Also I disliked how in the comics and leading into ME3 , Cerberus appears to have more sources of information/more connections than the Shadow Broker. Seemed forced, sort of lore breaking.

Cerberus become a tumor to the overall plot in my opinion.

[Arcian]

Arcian,

 

Your analysis of Cerberus and points given are well taken.  Thank you.   I believe however, any challenge to the player requires a REALLY BAD villain.   Reapers are powerful but in my view -- boring in that they are “machines that can be broken”.    I’m surprised nukes weren’t used or some sort of fusion-warhead missile.  This would become boring (to me) if it were just [metallic] reapers needing conquering with superior firepower.

 

Alternatively, we CAN and DO relate to bad guys – especially the darker side of humans.    For the Turians, Salerians, Krogans and the Geth reading this thread  -- we humans have a dark history of those skilled in deceit, treachery, greed, avarice, & genocide -- to the tune of Niccolò Machiavelli

 

One fact I’ve learned in business is you give the customer what he/she WANTS.   That’s not clearly defined and certainly differs [obviously] from person to person in a game – however there is a certain “list” of things COMMON to all humans.   Expounding on that “list” is beyond the scope of your thread – and I’m a stickler for keeping ON TRACK since about 80% of posters only quote-and-gripe, quote-and-slander, or talk about other games & movies that are totally irrelevant to the thread purpose (my thread is like that now).

 

In ME1, Cerberus was (to me) an enigma; strange, weird, questionable, but had a scientific purpose.   ME2 played up BIG on three things on that “list”: 

 

(1) Injustice of the jackass council and

(2) The warm and fuzzy feeling you got being “cared for” as TIM’s “most important resource” at the time (“disposable tool” later).   Almost respectable in ME2 since the Council are “weeds of the galaxy”.

(3) Romance 

 

Anybody’s WILD fantasy!   Your own (most advanced) new starship, honor, respect, money, women, powerful weapons, interesting assignments, romances (you couldn’t achieve in real life), and galaxy-changing accomplishments (as compared to mowing the lawn in real life).  No wonder why folks still play after 2 years & counting.

 

THAT COMPLICATED?:  I've played adventure games containing some puzzles (like Tomb Raider & Splinter Cell).  Alternatively, there are PURELY puzzles games (like the Myst series) that appeal to mostly adults because kids don't have the patience & kids like to shoot everything that moves.  In perspective, the ME series is mostly just FUN to play with light on the puzzles & some compelling drama in places.  In contrast, the "Indoctrination Theory" supposes [very] complex & parallel undertones that would exist in [very] complex puzzle games like Myst-4.   I can’t see such a radical switch as has been suggested in other threads.

 

OVER ANALYSIS:  There’s lots of GOOFY things in the game that I let ride (except the ending).   Think about it:  gravity & human medkits on a Geth dreadnaught.  Reapers not “adjusting” the Mass Relays during harvest time (using only IFF) which would stop any enemy (us) in their tracks.   Hearing laser fire & explosions in a vacuum.   Lots of forum talk about “he is in open space”.  Ever notice when the Normandy pulls into doc, you see the WHITE atmosphere-retaining barrier it goes thru?   Too much nit-picking (“gee, look what I thought of!”).

 

Yes, in ME3 Cerberus is the “fly in the ointment” – resisting you at every turn & needs “to be kicked in the balls”.   After 6 hours into ME3, I was so infuriated with TIM, that I went back into ME2, blew up the collector base and restarted ME3 again.   Yes I’m emotional – I’m not a potted plant (and on that point, I don’t hide behind my screen and throw rocks at folks – as done by some skateboarders on this forum). 

 

Cerberus “has noble goals” – the problem is that TIM is the evil crony that should be dethroned and replaced by someone more “noble”.   The Council is always at the top of my SH*T list.   TIM is #2.   But consider how void the game would be without these obstacles to overcome.

 

Initially I was going to trash ME3 after the first play then I decided to enjoy 99% of the great gameplay and ignore the 1% moron ending.   Now on my 5^th play.  Players have GOT to allow some stupid stuff to make the game FLOW and not so OVER analyze & nitpick the thing to death (as in Myst-4).      If not Cerberus, then some other [similar] bad villain-thing-organization that you’d be referring to.

See, that's the thing, you could replace Cerberus with the Shadow Broker and it would make a million percent more sense without changing anything about what Cerberus actually did. At least the Shadow Broker has been around for a really long time, and he has the necessary information control to be as omniscient as TIM is portrayed in ME2 and ME3. The Broker has every single galactic power tied around his scary finger, and his information monopoly grants him an enormous amount of wealth and influence. He doesn't need armies when he can easily manipulate the galactic powers into fighting each other to further his own agenda. Whatever tech or research he needs, he can buy either with credits or other information. When people cross him, he'll have their ass six feet under in less than 24 hours (as evident with Fist).

 

He was PERFECT for the role.

 

... so why wasn't he used instead of Cerberus? Cerberus was, after all, only a rogue Alliance black ops organization who wanted to use their limited resources to further the interests of mankind. Having them turn out to be Space Illuminati with an unspecified but plot convenient amount of resources within 26 years of humans making first contact with aliens was a leap of logic so long you'd need an FTL drive to make it to the other side within a human lifespan. TIM compares Cerberus to the STG, but the STG owes their success to 2000 years of experience and GOVERNMENT BACKING. Neither of which Cerberus has. Private parties and organizations can move money, sure, but not in the same volumes as governments. Unless Cerberus is fully backed by an interstellar bank... who knows, given enough time, he may have begun printing Illusive Dollars to be used in his evil empire.

 

Whatever their reasons, Cerberus was the worst choice they could have made. Given how much Super MAC likes to actively and retroactively inject them into everything he writes, I cannot avoid coming to the conclusion that their inclusion is all his doing and fault.

[Arcian]

Arcian,

 

.....not a debate.   Don't waste your time.    Avail yourself of the IGNORE feature like I have.

Ignore feature?! There's an ignore feature?!

SUPER MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAC!

 

No but seriously, I only reserve the greatest krogan insult for people I REALLY don't like... like russians. And objectivists. And people who never learned to indicate where the hell they are going in roundabouts. Not even Super MAC gets the krogan insult, and that's only because of his hat and deviously infectious smile.

 

I may not agree with the good Doctor about a great deal of things, but he likes Pacific Rim, and that alone makes him at least partially cool in my book.

 

It's called 'bigger on the inside'

It's actually called "Screw Physics, I Write The Plot".

 

It's the best trick in Super MAC's book.

 

His only trick, in fact. He and Moffat are similar in that regard.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Ignore feature?! There's an ignore feature?!

SUPER MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAC!

 

No but seriously, I only reserve the greatest krogan insult for people I REALLY don't like... like russians. And objectivists. And people who never learned to indicate where the hell they are going in roundabouts. Not even Super MAC gets the krogan insult, and that's only because of his hat and deviously infectious smile.

 

I may not agree with the good Doctor about a great deal of things, but he likes Pacific Rim, and that alone makes him at least partially cool in my book.

 

 

Gee thanks, I suppose. I typically don't say much on your points because I either don't feel strongly one way or the other, or I'm in general agreement with you. It's only when I disagree that I get vocal. And I've really only ever done that a few times. I don't ignore people because I don't care enough to ignore people for having an opposing opinion or attitude. You should tell that Dale guy to chill the hell out. I don't even think I've ever said anything (by my standards anyway) that negative to him. He's so tightly wound up and uptight that he comes off like that one chick who walked out on Larry King when he asked her a mundane question about why she decided to opt out of a lawsuit. Carrie Prejean I think it was; pretty face, no brains.

 

But back on Dale, he seriously needs to lighten up. I don't think he's been on the internet very long, the way he reacts and expects people to act. Seriously, 'juvenile sarcasm'? What the hell does that even mean? 'Bratty slander'? Didn't he do just that by telling a person not to engage me all because I play 'mind games'? If that's what he wants to call argument, then sure. I play mind games. Sorry he's not clever enough to actually play on my level.

 

It's actually called "Screw Physics, I Write The Plot".

 

It's the best trick in Super MAC's book.

 

His only trick, in fact. He and Moffat are similar in that regard.

 

Doctor Who has been around a lot longer than Steven Moffet has been as a writer, and it's been using that trope since 1963. And the concept is simple enough: dimensional transcendence. Also, the name of the trope, as I said (and you can find this on TV tropes), is 'Bigger on the Outside'.

 

The difference is that the concept is core part of Doctor Who, which never tried to be realistic science fiction in any way. Ever. The premise itself is impossible: a wacky but brilliant alien who is essentially immortal who uses a time-machine space ship that can travel anywhere in the universe at any time, instantly (and outside of it on occasion).

 

Mass Effect meanwhile was meant to be hard science fiction, and the 'hard' part was discarded as the series went along, followed slowly by the 'science' part. 

 

Moffat gets a pass because that's the entire premise of the show he writes.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Basically, Liara was used by The Illusive Man to get the Shadow Broker network out of the way because Liara was not anywhere near as conniving as she needed to be to run the Shadow Broker network. The first thing she needed to do was get a new base of operations and had to do it without Shepard's knowledge because of all the bugs on the Normandy. But that couldn't happen because of love. So Cerberus goes and blows up the Shadow Broker base ship, but if I recall this was only one of several, Super Mac. Liara salvages the remnants of the SB network. Moves all this gear to Earth and has it installed on the Normandy -- and has Glyph doing the heavy lifting of running the SB network while the Alliance is retrofitting the ship and no one except EDI suspects she's the Shadow Broker? 

 

That never made any sense to me. Still this doesn't explain the rise of Cerberus to a power rivaling the Turians.

 

The Shadow Broker wouldn't have made sense to me either.

 

You want to know what would have made sense?

 

Delay the Reaper invasion by five years. The Batarians had the Leviathan of Dis. They build up their military and refit their ships with the tech and attack the Alliance. Right about then, in another part of the galaxy, the Reapers invade. The Batarian military leaders are indoctrinated. So now you're fighting Batarians and Reapers and Geth.

 

The Illusive man can still advocate controlling the Reapers.

 

But the message of the game was: Organics controlling machines = bad; Machines controlling organics = bad; Organics and Machines living together = rainbows

[KaiserShep]

Well, technically, it's Liara that blows up the ship. I imagine Cerberus probably wanted to keep it for themselves.

 

But the message of the game was: Organics controlling machines = bad; Machines controlling organics = bad; Organics and Machines living together = rainbows

 

Until the machines are continually disqualified from engaging in major league sports and replace factory workers entirely, causing a rash of protests that end in the cataclysmic war that destroys galactic society. They shoulda let Wireless Joe in the team.

[ZipZap2000]

It definitely killed the vibe not much more to add to it than that.

[Geralt of Relays]

Cerberus was not the worst thing to happen to the ME franchise, but rather how they were handled was. Genre or setting is not arguments for bad or unbelievable writing, what needs to be acknowledged is Mass Effect was not written as a trilogy despite what was said. That might have been Bioware’s hopes going into making Mass Effect, but you have to wait until you get the sale numbers in of the first title.

 

ME1 ended up being a smash success, so at that point they could look further forward, but only as far as ME2. Unfortunately everything in the subsequent titles tells me they were simply winging it from game to game, otherwise there would have been far more cohesive story points that interconnected.

 

If there was truly a plan to have Mass Effect as a trilogy, common sense dictates Cerberus (and many other things) would have been introduced & concepted much differently to us in ME1 to better fit how they subsequently ended up in ME2 & 3. While it would be unreasonable to suggest Bioware would need to have EVERYTHING figured out at the point of making ME1, the core parts of full story should have been, with making allowances for other parts open to change depending on player’s feedback & reaction.

[IntoTheDarkness]

Let's look at the evidence shall we?

 

Mass Effect 1 - They feature in a small, villainous role in a side mission. They are not shown being unfeasibly wealthy or powerful. They use subtlety to achieve their goals, and try to suppress any evidence of their existence.

 

Mass Effect 2 - They feature in a major, helpful role despite their earlier villainous role. The player is not allowed to refuse working with them. They are very open about their existence, and plaster all of their ships and technology with their symbol. Any notion of subtlety or willingness to remain unknown has vanished at this point. They are able to find information or objects no one else has found in several thousands or even millions of years. They are able to hack geth, which no one has ever been able to do.

 

They are shown to be unfeasibly wealthy and powerful, being able to bring back deceased individuals to life and build more advanced warships than the best engineers of the galaxy's many species. Somehow, they were behind the construction of the first Normandy. The player character is killed with the specific purpose of demonstrating how capable the organization is. They are shown to be more than a match to the other species in the galaxy, despite the latter having a 2000 year headstart in terms of economy, technology and science. Meanwhile, humans have only been superluminal for about 30 years, and Cerberus has not existed for more than 20.

 

Mass Effect 3 - They feature in a major, villainous role. Somehow, they have an unfeasibly powerful private military force that can stand toe to toe with the military forces of the galactic nations. They have moved up from Jesus technology to being able to hijack Reapers, the most mentally and physically powerful beings in the franchise. As a matter of fact, their role in the game greatly exceeds that of the Reapers.

 

They have a conspicuous space station and a private fleet of military ships that can stand up to the Alliance's fleets. They also had the manpower to conquer and take over Omega station in the Terminus Systems, which was home to countless powerful mercenary and criminal groups - so many, in fact, that their sheer number served as a deterrant to the Citadel Council. In spite of this, Cerberus is able to take Omega with little effort. Their military forces are ubiquitous. There are no signs that they are being spread thin anywhere. Somehow, they are able to train and support all of these soldiers with supplies and equipment. How their armor and weapons are produced is not explained. How they are trained is not explained (indoctrination is not training).

 

Out of 4 Mass Effect books, they feature in a major role in 3 of them.

 

Out of 5 Mass Effect comic book series, they feature in a major role in 4 of them.

 

In the single Mass Effect animated movie released so far, they feature in a major role.

 

Out of 2 Mass Effect mobile games released, they feature in a major role in both of them.

 

 

 

 

I don't know about you guys, but I paid to play Mass Effect, not Cerberus Effect. I am sick and tired of having this stupid organization ruin my favorite franchise.

 

Thanks for giving me a good laugh. Every now and then I enjoy laughing at how unplanned ME production really was. Retcon is one thing, and self-identity denying is another. Good job, Bioware!

[IntoTheDarkness]

Really what do you expect? None of the writers had shown IQ level above 70 when it comes to plot coherence. They did a good job at dialogues and characterizations, though. Yeah, the game is enjoyable as long as you deactivate half of your brain while playing.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Really what do you expect? None of the writers had shown IQ level above 70 when it comes to plot coherence. They did a good job at dialogues and characterizations, though. Yeah, the game is enjoyable as long as you deactivate half of your brain while playing.

 

The series does suffer from having too many cooks in the kitchen.

 

Some parts of the game though fail to have any coherence, characterization, or anything but shlock; and those parts usually involve Cerberus.

[ZipZap2000]

Too many cooks in kitchen seems to be the problem with ME3 from where I sit they had too many ideas and tried to pull them all off at once. I'm fine with the story up until that point but can appreciate what we do have now. If you still think ME3 is bad we might need to sit you down make you play through some of the other garbage that's floating around the sci fi gaming genre for perspective *cough* Destiny *cough*.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Too many cooks in kitchen seems to be the problem with ME3 from where I sit they had too many ideas and tried to pull them all off at once. I'm fine with the story up until that point but can appreciate what we do have now. If you still think ME3 is bad we might need to sit you down make you play through some of the other garbage that's floating around the sci fi gaming genre for perspective *cough* Destiny *cough*.

 

That certainly is the case, as it's not only a rare sci-fi game but I think it's the only space opera IP still around (unless we're counting Star Wars games...). That might be anther facet of my Cerberus dislike as they are very representative of current bro-shooters, only IN SPACE!!!

[angol fear]

 

 

Some parts of the game though fail to have any coherence, characterization, or anything but shlock; and those parts usually involve Cerberus.

examples?

[voteDC]

A big problem for me was that how did Cerberus build these massive fleets and facilities with absolutely no-one noticing? Kind of makes a mockery of the STG, Shadowbroker operatives, Spectres etc, that none of them found anything suspicious.

I kind of liked how Cerberus was in ME2, a large organisation but bringing Shepard back and building the SR2 was a serious stretch of their resources.

[Han Shot First]

A big problem for me was that how did Cerberus build these massive fleets and facilities with absolutely no-one noticing? Kind of makes a mockery of the STG, Shadowbroker operatives, Spectres etc, that none of them found anything suspicious.

I kind of liked how Cerberus was in ME2, a large organisation but bringing Shepard back and building the SR2 was a serious stretch of their resources.

 

ME3 takes a stab at explaining the increase in manpower by chalking it up to indoctrination. While that might work to explain where all the troops came from, it doesn't explain how Cerberus obtained a fleet to transport and keep them supplied, or where the bullets, beans, and bandages that keep them in fighting shape are coming from. Did Cerberus suddenly gain control of a planet somewhere, with its shipyards?

 

The Batarians would have worked better as the indoctrinated Reaper cannon fodder. The Hegemony had planets, fleets, and shipyards.