476 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

If I had to choose between which to dispose of from the story, the Catalyst would be the obvious choice.

[ImaginaryMatter]

ME3 faltered in making TIM indoctrinated. That doesn't mean they didn't have an important role to play and that, written better, it wouldn't have worked.

 

I think at it's core Cerberus is ill suited to be an Indoctrinated faction. What I think the two most important parts of Indoctrination are creating a feeling of paranoia as the line between friend and foe is blended and providing some emotional tension from having to shoot people who are being deceived. Cerberus doesn't fit either of these as they are outsiders and not particularly trustworthy from the onset or in some cases, sympathetic. You can see this in ME3 where the distinction between Cerberus just being Cerberus and being Indoctrinated is hard to tell.

[ImaginaryMatter]

If I had to choose between which to dispose of from the story, the Catalyst would be the obvious choice.

 

I'm on the fence about this. In some universe I think the Catalyst could have worked if it was given proper build-up and set-up. Elements that never took place because Cerberus was such a large and distracting piece of the story.

[Axdinosaurx]

It wouldn't have been so bad if they didn't make it out to be where Cerberus is seemingly more powerful than any council race on their own. A small rogue organization like they were in ME1 was totally believable but there really is no way they could become the space Illuminati in Humanities very short time on the galactic stage.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

If I had to choose between which to dispose of from the story, the Catalyst would be the obvious choice.

 

I believe a significant alteration for the Catalyst would be the best bet.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

It wouldn't have been so bad if they didn't make it out to be where Cerberus is seemingly more powerful than any council race on their own. A small rogue organization like they were in ME1 was totally believable but there really is no way they could become the space Illuminati in Humanities very short time on the galactic stage.

 

I wouldn't say that Cerberus in ME1 was a small organization. They just didn't have any real definition beyond that of a shadow group that you encounter and has a sub-story. ME2 Cerberus is more to form for them.

[AlanC9]

I cannot even begin to express how strongly I disagree with this. If Mass Effect 2 and 3 had been used to explore the nature of the Reapers further instead of leaving that to the last 15 minutes of the game, they could have been the best antagonists in video game history. 

 

Even if Bio couldn't come up with anything better for the nature of the Reapers than what we ended up with?

[Display Name Owner]

Yeah, I got tired of them a while ago.

 

I even think that they (or a toned down version of their ME2 selves) could have been good for their own game or series of games based around a smaller scale story, one where their actions actually make sense instead of ridiculous things like them hacking Geth and mastering indoctrination when no one else can. It seems like every major action or innovation in the galaxy has Cerberus behind it, it's getting old. It's like every other organisation is comprised of absolute morons as Cerberus are the only ones smart enough to do anything, yet paradoxically everything they do ends up in a major f-up. By now they've been plastered all over the plot too much for too long, when there were several species worth of groups and characters that could have been involved instead.

 

TIM was interesting, but the whole Cerberus thing was just overdone. The whole of ME2 was effectively about Cerberus and the prelude to their involvement in ME3. I for one can't help but wonder how things could have been better without all that malarkey.

[naddaya]

Yeah, I got tired of them a while ago.

 

I even think that they (or a toned down version of their ME2 selves) could have been good for their own game or series of games based around a smaller scale story, one where their actions actually make sense instead of ridiculous things like them hacking Geth and mastering indoctrination when no one else can. It seems like every major action or innovation in the galaxy has Cerberus behind it, it's getting old. It's like every other organisation is comprised of absolute morons as Cerberus are the only ones smart enough to do anything, yet paradoxically everything they do ends up in a major f-up. By now they've been plastered all over the plot too much for too long, when there were several species worth of groups and characters that could have been involved instead.

 

TIM was interesting, but the whole Cerberus thing was just overdone. The whole of ME2 was effectively about Cerberus and the prelude to their involvement in ME3. I for one can't help but wonder how things could have been better without all that malarkey.

 

This this this, a thousand times this.

 

---

 

I don't think it's the worst, it's in the list of things I would dispose of/change though. Which is:

1. Shepard's death/Lazarus project in ME2. That bugged me the most. Even more than the Catalyst.

2. The Empire of Cerberus. Seriously, they're everywhere.

3. The Catalyst.

4. The Collectors plotline in ME2. It just feels detached from the rest of the story, I wish they focused more on building alliances before the reapers' arrival.

[KrrKs]

It's like every other organisation is comprised of absolute morons as Cerberus are the only ones smart enough to do anything, yet paradoxically everything they do ends up in a major f-up.

If you really think about it, everyone in the MEU is a moron and/or redneck.

Really, Conrad Verner is probably the only person smart enough to tie his shoes, and not miserably fail or blow something up while doing so.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Wauw, an actual Reaper invasion.

 

Now, about attacking that Cerberus outpost commander...

[Dabrikishaw]

I think the increased importance of Cerberus was a good call. The Reapers are not interesting enough to carry a trilogy on their own. You needed some human antagonist/tentative ally that presented another perspective of the galactic status quo.

 

Things could have been done better, but I'm fine with the idea. I consider TIM the true worthy opponent of the series.

This is part of my point. I think, to a certain degree, that ME3 Cerberus was basically the result of Bioware trying to have their cake and eat it too when it came to antagonists. 

 

Essentially, I think this latest transformation of Cerberus is partially because Bioware wanted to make the Reapers a faceless and apparently unstoppable opponent. I don't necessarily think this was a bad decision on its own, but it meant that there would be no real antagonist with a personality, and you could only engage Reaper forces ever so often.

 

Thus, enter Cerberus mark III, with its personified leader and improbably frequent appearances.

[congokong]

I don't know about you guys, but I paid to play Mass Effect, not Cerberus Effect. I am sick and tired of having this stupid organization ruin my favorite franchise.

 

Considering Cerberus' strong role throughout the trilogy as you cited in your OP, I'm surprised you'd still consider it your favorite franchise. If Cerberus was "ruining" it for you how can ME still be your favorite? Maybe Cereberus' role isn't so bad.

[von uber]

The Reapers could have, and should have, been an interesting enough foe to face for the trilogy.

By all means have indoctrinated agents (this could have been used to excellent effect for paranoia - imagine shooting someone you were convinced was indoctrinated but turned out not to be, and it was, oh I don't know, garrus or something) but to discard that and make cerberus the main focus was just poor.

And it's a shame because me3 really suffers for it; it's no coincidence that the best missions generally don't feature cerberus (omega is redeemed inspite of cerberus by aria in my opinion).

[ImaginaryMatter]

The Reapers could have, and should have, been an interesting enough foe to face for the trilogy.

By all means have indoctrinated agents (this could have been used to excellent effect for paranoia - imagine shooting someone you were convinced was indoctrinated but turned out not to be, and it was, oh I don't know, garrus or something) but to discard that and make cerberus the main focus was just poor.

And it's a shame because me3 really suffers for it; it's no coincidence that the best missions generally don't feature cerberus (omega is redeemed inspite of cerberus by aria in my opinion).

 

Omega was my favorite incarnation of Cerberus, as they had a goal I could actually understand rather than lol!indoctrination -- plus my favorite ME3 antagonist.

 

Also, my favorite mission in the game stars Cerberus and that mission is Grissom Academy w/o Jack (followed by Grissom Academy w/ Jack).

 

I agree with you with the Reapers. I think one facet that could have made them interesting in ME3 would be having them actively Indoctrinating and manipulating anyone they could. It would give them some characterization if they were acting like puppet masters (although I guess that would conflict with the Catalyst's version of the Reapers).

[von uber]

Omega is let down by the ridiculous size if their forces. It would be interesting for someone to work out, but given the amount of places they attack and occupy it seems they have more troops than the alliance.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Omega is let down by the ridiculous size if their forces. It would be interesting for someone to work out, but given the amount of places they attack and occupy it seems they have more troops than the alliance.

How in holy hell did Cerberus manage to build a Dreadnought?

When it takes even the Turians two years to make one? 

How did no one find a huge shipyard with a huge logo plastered on its side? Did no one see anything suspicious, like vast quantities of element zero going missin? 

[KaiserShep]

In fairness, Cerberus' elevation to a massively-funded super cell didn't come out of nowhere, at least not in ME3. In ME2, they had huge facilities and multiple space stations. And then we get information from EDI that Cerberus' spending trends indicate that they have billions at their disposal, and have several legitimate businesses that serve as fronts. In all likelihood, they had ships for years, and from what I gathered from EDI's dialogue, the SR2 was already built, or at least in the process of being built, long before Shepard was recovered, and they even had a hand in the SR1's construction.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Considering Cerberus' strong role throughout the trilogy as you cited in your OP, I'm surprised you'd still consider it your favorite franchise. If Cerberus was "ruining" it for you how can ME still be your favorite? Maybe Cereberus' role isn't so bad.

 

This logic doesn't follow; It is possible for Mass Effect to be his favorite series while still complaining about the omnipresence of Cerberus throughout the later parts of the series, especially extraneous material.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

In fairness, Cerberus' elevation to a massively-funded super cell didn't come out of nowhere, at least not in ME3. In ME2, they had huge facilities and multiple space stations. And then we get information from EDI that Cerberus' spending trends indicate that they have billions at their disposal, and have several legitimate businesses that serve as fronts. In all likelihood, they had ships for years, and from what I gathered from EDI's dialogue, the SR2 was already built, or at least in the process of being built, long before Shepard was recovered, and they even had a hand in the SR1's construction.

 

I wonder what the exchange rate for a credit is compared to the USD, or GBP, or the Euro. Several billion credits (I'm assuming less than 10 billion), while substantial, doesn't seem to be very high for a group similar to a government research organization or a private corporation worth multi-billions, unless the credit is worth a substantial amount of any other currency. I'd say that an organization such as Cerberus would have to be making an income of several-hundred billion credits at the very least annually.

[KaiserShep]

If they have multiple businesses, that's more than likely. They also got funding from the Alliance directly.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

If they have multiple businesses, that's more than likely. They also got funding from the Alliance directly.

 

Let's see, multiple corporation fronts, funding from the alliance military-industrial complex, donations from private citizens, possible patents that might be held for various technologies, and possibly other means of funding, such as freelance work, espionage, mercenary/security/private-military actions by interested third-parties...

 

Cerberus funding is nowhere near enough to be in the 'several billion' range. It would likely have to be in the very high multi-billion, possibly even trillions of credits per annum. To be what they are and have what they have, they'd have to have their own economy, the size of a modern first-world country.

[dreamgazer]

Councilor Sparatus and his air-quotes are probably the worst thing to happen to the Mass Effect franchise, actually.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Councilor Sparatus and his air-quotes are probably the worst thing to happen to the Mass Effect franchise, actually.

 

Not all that bad, all things considered.

 

I'm not surprised that the Council would decide to back-track on their acceptance of the Reapers' existence. As Jacob says, it's nightmare stuff, and when looking at the scope of the threat and the relative lack of evidence supporting the idea that Sovereign was just a fluke, it's not surprising that the Council decided to go into a state of denial and pretend that all was well.

[KaiserShep]

I'm pretty sure it's Anderson that says it's "nightmare stuff" on the Presidium after talking to the Council.

 

I like how the asari councilor will then say that the geth were somehow bought into this whole reaper business by Saren's charisma. Imagine that. 300 years of conflict with the geth could have been solved by simply making up some kind of crazy story. Saren is like super L Ron Hubbard, just conjuring up some weird reaper religion for machines. Tevos was hitting that red sand pretty hard.