476 réponses à ce sujet

[David Selig]

This was one of the big issues I had with humanity in general, but Cerberus in particular in the ME trilogy. Humans are special. We're the best. Etc. I always found it odd that a racist/xenophobic black ops group; originally funded by one of the youngest space faring species in the galaxy; is able to make more advances in both military and scientific pursuits then the rest of the galaxy's civilizations put together. It would be like saying the KKK is able to develop cold fusion, and a cure for cancer while the rest of the world is just hitting their collective heads against a desk. I know that this is a game written by humans for humans, and that the 'Humanity is awesome' troupe is not limited to just ME, but the level of Mary Sue-edness that our species got in the games was ridiculous. 

 

From ME 1 (the most 'balanced' of all the games), where a human ambassador to the Citadel is given his own office; despite his species being only 30 years on the galactic scene. While the Volus and Elcor ambassadors have to share an office, despite both species being members of Citadel politics for at least 100 years longer then humanity. The drive to excel and persevere, is apparently a trait only available to humanity, seeing as how humans are able to advance in almost all areas despite just showing up.

I very much agree with this. The timeline is absolutely nonsensical. Somehow the humans became a top military, economical and political power in 26 years after first contact and less than 40 years since humanity discovered the Prothean artifacts and the mass effect even though the other sentient species in the galaxy has had access to them and had discovered space travel thousands of years ago.

 

The period between the discovery of the mass effect technology and the events of the games should've been at least 400-500 years for this to be even remotely plausible.

 

Then Cerberus, a human splinter group which has a total of only 120 members in ME2, somehow became a scientific and military powerhouse in the galaxy, made it all the more silly. They literally invented a way to resurrect people. They invaded the freaking Citadel and were very close to succeeding in taking over. They came up with some huge fleets out of nowhere.

[RZIBARA]

Yep, they were one of the many reasons ME2 was terrible

[Barquiel]

Omega was my favorite incarnation of Cerberus, as they had a goal I could actually understand rather than lol!indoctrination -- plus my favorite ME3 antagonist.
 
Also, my favorite mission in the game stars Cerberus and that mission is Grissom Academy w/o Jack (followed by Grissom Academy w/ Jack).
 
I agree with you with the Reapers. I think one facet that could have made them interesting in ME3 would be having them actively Indoctrinating and manipulating anyone they could. It would give them some characterization if they were acting like puppet masters (although I guess that would conflict with the Catalyst's version of the Reapers).

To be honest, I would have preferred it if Petrovsky and OmegaCerberus were indoctrinated as well. Their plan makes absolutely no sense and they are just as stupid/evil as TIM and the rest of Cerberus in ME3. But they had the excuse of being indoctrinated. I mean, Indoctrination at least explains the nonsense TIM did over the course of the game, like the attack on the citadel, for example.

[ImaginaryMatter]

To be honest, I would have preferred it if Petrovsky and OmegaCerberus were indoctrinated as well. Their plan makes absolutely no sense and they are just as stupid/evil as TIM and the rest of Cerberus in ME3. But they had the excuse of being indoctrinated. I mean, Indoctrination at least explains the nonsense TIM did over the course of the game, like the attack on the citadel, for example.

 

Aren't they simply supplying the Cerberus war machine with Eezo and experimenting on the local population?

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

To be honest, I would have preferred it if Petrovsky and OmegaCerberus were indoctrinated as well. Their plan makes absolutely no sense and they are just as stupid/evil as TIM and the rest of Cerberus in ME3. But they had the excuse of being indoctrinated. I mean, Indoctrination at least explains the nonsense TIM did over the course of the game, like the attack on the citadel, for example.

 

Their plan makes sense to me; secure Omega as a pass station to the Omega 4 relay to maintain a presence in that region, and continue experimentation, testing, and production of Adjutants.

 

It's not stupid/evil. It's creating a resource to use to their advantage, and under their control.

 

Actually, no it doesn't. TIM's attack on the Citadel makes sense to me; take control of the Citadel if possible, kill the Council, and cause wide-scale disruption.

 

Hell, it's part of a theory I have that everything TIM and Cerberus did was actually part of a plan to unite the galaxy and to get the Crucible built, for which he could use chaos and disruption to go to the Citadel and prepare for its use to enact Control. It's the perfect plan, and the one thing that TIM didn't prepare for was the likelihood of indoctrination. In fact, he might even have intended for Shepard to enact Control. It's the perfect Thanatos Gambit, especially if you choose Control.

[AlanC9]

Then Cerberus, a human splinter group which has a total of only 120 members in ME2, somehow became a scientific and military powerhouse in the galaxy, made it all the more silly. They literally invented a way to resurrect people. They invaded the freaking Citadel and were very close to succeeding in taking over. They came up with some huge fleets out of nowhere.

Obviously, that 120-member figure was a lie. (Retconning 101)

[Display Name Owner]

Obviously, that 120-member figure was a lie. (Retconning 101)

 

At first I went with the reasoning that it meant 120 proper operatives like Miranda, Jacob, Wilson etc. and it wasn't counting the low level guys who did whatever menial jobs they were told. But then it became clear that it was just a retcon.

[Barquiel]

Aren't they simply supplying the Cerberus war machine with Eezo and experimenting on the local population?

That's what I mean. Cerberus is indoctrinated, by the reapers through the Illusive Man. Now it's hard to draw a line as to where TIM's goals end and Reaper indoctrination begins...and the point in the story at which TIM becomes a mere Reaper pawn isn't very clear, though you can arguably say that Cerberus' attacks on the Sur'kesh facility and the citadel could only be justified if they were intentionally helping the Reapers. And I think everyone who isn't indoctrinated by the Reapers can see this. But OmegaCerberus still supports the Cerberus war machine, which attacks organic forces all over the galaxy. Why would anyone who isn't indoctrinated do this?

Secure Omega as a pass station to the Omega 4 relay makes sense, the probelm is that Petrovsky stayed loyal to TIM when it's clear that he is a reaper pawn.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

At first I went with the reasoning that it meant 120 proper operatives like Miranda, Jacob, Wilson etc. and it wasn't counting the low level guys who did whatever menial jobs they were told. But then it became clear that it was just a retcon.

 

Ditto, that's what I was thinking. Except, I viewed it as members such as Shepard, Miranda, and Dr. Archer. The key officers and operatives.

[AlanC9]

Actually, no it doesn't. TIM's attack on the Citadel makes sense to me; take control of the Citadel if possible, kill the Council, and cause wide-scale disruption.

Note that if they can get to a state where all the councilors except Udina are dead, Cerberus doesn't really need to maintain possession of the Citadel. Losing to C-Sec would help to solidify Udina's position at that time. Sort of a Reichstag fire moment, except Udina's the one under the false flag. (Also a re-run of the ME1 Renegade ending)

[DirtySHISN0]

I miss the seedy background baddy that cerberus was in ME1, you could just tell hadn't seen the last of them.

[Han Shot First]

To be honest, I would have preferred it if Petrovsky and OmegaCerberus were indoctrinated as well. Their plan makes absolutely no sense and they are just as stupid/evil as TIM and the rest of Cerberus in ME3. But they had the excuse of being indoctrinated. I mean, Indoctrination at least explains the nonsense TIM did over the course of the game, like the attack on the citadel, for example.

 

Agreed, and I'd extend that to Brooks & the Clone. Without indoctrination their actions don't make much sense.

 

I get that some fans wanted villains that didn't have indoctrination as a motivating factor in doing the things they do, but it didn't make much sense for either Petrovsky or Brooks and the Clone. Without indoctrination they just came across as stupid evil.

[Jukaga]

You can't deny the beautiful view that is Miranda. I fought the Collectors just to get some Miranda booty, FemShep or not.

 

It's a horrible crime that femshep can't romance Miranda. I always held out hope that as it was originally planned as possible there would be buried content in there that a fan patch could release.

[Jukaga]

Their plan makes sense to me; secure Omega as a pass station to the Omega 4 relay to maintain a presence in that region, and continue experimentation, testing, and production of Adjutants.

 

It's not stupid/evil. It's creating a resource to use to their advantage, and under their control.

 

Actually, no it doesn't. TIM's attack on the Citadel makes sense to me; take control of the Citadel if possible, kill the Council, and cause wide-scale disruption.

 

Hell, it's part of a theory I have that everything TIM and Cerberus did was actually part of a plan to unite the galaxy and to get the Crucible built, for which he could use chaos and disruption to go to the Citadel and prepare for its use to enact Control. It's the perfect plan, and the one thing that TIM didn't prepare for was the likelihood of indoctrination. In fact, he might even have intended for Shepard to enact Control. It's the perfect Thanatos Gambit, especially if you choose Control.

 

What you write here is very similar to my pro-Cerberus Shepard headcanon. The only wrinkle is that TiM gets indoc'd but Shepard accomplishes the goal 'Control' in spite of it.

[Charcolt]

Cerberus as a whole is pretty inconsistent, but then humanity as a species is definitely wanked up above most aliens. I agree 100% that it makes no sense for humanity's rise to power to occur in such a short period of time. Add another century between first contact and ME1. I think Cerberus could have worked great as more of an Alliance conspiracy that Renegade Shepard could support, instead of an all-power army of racism that are successfully causing more damage than the Reapers ever could dream of.

 

Not only is Cerberus portrayed in different ways between each game (small secret mad science -> infinite money anti-Reaper Machiavelli -> the Empire), but Shepard doesn't even get a chance to support them. Renegade Shepard's opposition to them doesn't even make sense.

 

Arcian, wasn't that the point of the Regenesis rewrite, fixing Mass Effect to get rid of humans are special, yo dawg Reapers, and other problems?

[Jukaga]

While it's hard to defend the ME3 Cerberus fleets, we never see more than a dozen on screen at once. It's not that implausible. Remeber, Cerberus can spend 100% of their income on military and mad science experiments unlike governments that have many more expenses. Cerberus is going to have a proportionately larger military because of this. The armies though, I have no problem with. It's explictly stated in game that they don't even have the manpower to hold down Eden Prime without using subterfuge. In the entirety of the game, we see fewer than a thousand Cerberus troopers all added up. With their indoctrication assembly line, I have no problem with the troops they field. They're not there to hold entire planets, they are installation guard forces and special ops strike teams. The whole 'Sith Empire' thing is 100% hyperbole. At no point does Cerberus challenge planetary level armies.

[Mister J]

I think I agree with about 20% of the Cerberus hate here and disagree with the other 80.

 

I liked it that Shepard was working for someone other than the Alliance in ME2; an organisation that doesn't play so much by the rules and operates in the grey areas I think is much more interesting than a standard space military. I thought mr. Man (in ME2) was a very interesting character and when I first played ME3 I really missed the conversations with him: now I was getting briefed and debriefed by boring admiral Hackett...

 

Now in ME2 I think the question whether Cerberus was bad or not was left in the middle, so I was rather disappointed to see that that was abandoned in 3 and they were just declared plain evil. Mr. Man went from a mysterious, coldhearted pragmatic idealist to a generic a-hole villain. At first I thought it was beyond stupid that Cerberus and the Alliance would fight eachother while there's a Reaper invasion going on; but honestly there had to be some variation in enemies beyond the Reapers and Cerberus was the most likely candidate for that. At this point they couldn't make up an entirely new faction and throw them in the middle and the reasons for why Cerberus would do this are all rock solid.

 

Still my biggest problem with this is that Jacob and Kelly and maybe others were talking about their Cerberus history like they were blind to see the truth and that Cerberus was never good, rather than that the organisation did have some morals and good ideals during ME2, and only later turned to the dark side when mr. Man became indoctrinated.

[ImaginaryMatter]

While it's hard to defend the ME3 Cerberus fleets, we never see more than a dozen on screen at once. It's not that implausible. Remeber, Cerberus can spend 100% of their income on military and mad science experiments unlike governments that have many more expenses. Cerberus is going to have a proportionately larger military because of this. The armies though, I have no problem with. It's explictly stated in game that they don't even have the manpower to hold down Eden Prime without using subterfuge. In the entirety of the game, we see fewer than a thousand Cerberus troopers all added up. With their indoctrication assembly line, I have no problem with the troops they field. They're not there to hold entire planets, they are installation guard forces and special ops strike teams. The whole 'Sith Empire' thing is 100% hyperbole. At no point does Cerberus challenge planetary level armies.

 

I think it's one of those issues of show, don't tell. Whenever, you encounter Cerberus in-game they have the same numbers as the Reapers (and encounter numbers), I don't have the exact statistics but I'm pretty sure the number of Cerberus killed is roughly the same as the number of husks killed. Once you factor in multiplayer and all those hold-blank-from-Cerberus missions (which are canon) it becomes even worse.

 

So, while some text in-game does explain that they aren't super massive, it does not feel that way in the least bit. Even then there seems to be some contradictory information as somehow all these multiple fronts Cerberus is engaging in are being supplied somehow and they certainly don't seem surgical in nature. The problem with Sanctuary is that while it provides the numbers it doesn't explain where they are getting the equipment or experience.

[Jukaga]

That's more a problem with the mission designers and scope of the game than Cerberus. Add it all up and they basically are speading an Infantry brigade over all of known space. Even with all the Cerberus missions we really don't see that many troopers. MP matches cannot count as canon in of themselves, as there have been literally millions of matches played. We would have to count millions of alien N7 operatives as 'canon' and that is clearly absurd.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

What you write here is very similar to my pro-Cerberus Shepard headcanon. The only wrinkle is that TiM gets indoc'd but Shepard accomplishes the goal 'Control' in spite of it.

 

I destroy, but not because I'm opposed to Control. I want it, but I want some guarantee that I won't be corrupted by hardware failures in the upload.

 

TIM gets a gold statue, alliance idiots get hanged.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I think I agree with about 20% of the Cerberus hate here and disagree with the other 80.

 

I liked it that Shepard was working for someone other than the Alliance in ME2; an organisation that doesn't play so much by the rules and operates in the grey areas I think is much more interesting than a standard space military. I thought mr. Man (in ME2) was a very interesting character and when I first played ME3 I really missed the conversations with him: now I was getting briefed and debriefed by boring admiral Hackett...

 

Now in ME2 I think the question whether Cerberus was bad or not was left in the middle, so I was rather disappointed to see that that was abandoned in 3 and they were just declared plain evil. Mr. Man went from a mysterious, coldhearted pragmatic idealist to a generic a-hole villain. At first I thought it was beyond stupid that Cerberus and the Alliance would fight eachother while there's a Reaper invasion going on; but honestly there had to be some variation in enemies beyond the Reapers and Cerberus was the most likely candidate for that. At this point they couldn't make up an entirely new faction and throw them in the middle and the reasons for why Cerberus would do this are all rock solid.

 

Still my biggest problem with this is that Jacob and Kelly and maybe others were talking about their Cerberus history like they were blind to see the truth and that Cerberus was never good, rather than that the organisation did have some morals and good ideals during ME2, and only later turned to the dark side when mr. Man became indoctrinated.

 

Their pragmatism was pretty much the only thing I liked about them in ME2 but I don't think they were necessary to provide that. ME1 did leave a whole lot of wiggle room for Shepard to detach himself from the Alliance; like for example, expanding upon his role as a Spectre. If Shepard needed some sort of information backer they could have used the Shadow Broker himself (in my idea of ME2 TIM is a Shadow Broker).

[Jukaga]

I destroy, but not because I'm opposed to Control. I want it, but I want some guarantee that I won't be corrupted by hardware failures in the upload.

 

TIM gets a gold statue, alliance idiots get hanged.

I have Sheps that support all three endings. Personally I support Destroy yet I think that Control is the most responsible choice you can make.

[Mister J]

@Imaginarymatter: Well yeah, I would like it a lot if the protagonist of ME4 was not affiliated with the Alliance or anything, but be in charge of their own multi-species organisation of vigilantes who would right wrongs in the galaxy. The organisation could even be headed by a retired from field work Shepard, who would fill the role of Ilussive Man or Shadow Broker: providing the ground troops with intell... Just an idea...

[ImaginaryMatter]

@Imaginarymatter: Well yeah, I would like it a lot if the protagonist of ME4 was not affiliated with the Alliance or anything, but be in charge of their own multi-species organisation of vigilantes who would right wrongs in the galaxy. The organisation could even be headed by a retired from field work Shepard, who would fill the role of Ilussive Man or Shadow Broker: providing the ground troops with intell... Just an idea...

 

In ME4 I want to be a space archeologist or someone who just has a ship but isn't affiliated with anyone but themselves.

[themikefest]

Had I played ME3 without playing the previous two game, I wouldn't give a second thought about Cerberus being so large in ME3