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Cerberus is the worst thing to happen to the entire Mass Effect Franchise


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#151
Hello!I'mTheDoctor

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I don't think the fact that one or two players happen not to care about 90% of the characters is a reason for the writers not to attempt to provide more personal stakes for players in general. That would be like saying that the Virmire choice should have been written out because a couple of players hated both Ashley and Kaidan. As for supporting Cerberus' pro-human agenda, that's what Udina should have been for. The Collectors were second rate villains at best, and if you're going to (i) have a smaller scale story and (ii) have Cerberus play such a huge role, it makes the most sense to have them be out-and-out antagonists.

 

I don't really think it makes sense. I liked the dynamic as it was for Cerberus being rather complex and unable to really discern. I do also disagree on the nature of the Collectors being second rate villains. From the start, it was rather clear that they were likely involved with the Reapers. Going back to ME2's pre-release days, one of the big things was finding out how the Collectors and the Reapers were involved, what their connection was. I wouldn't say what I said is anything like the Virmire decision. My thoughts on the matter: Why not play as a Cerberus operative? And have decisions affect how Cerberus is hindered or progressed.

 

I also don't think that personal stakes really have a place with Mass Effect.



#152
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The collectors just got in the way of all the rather good one off recruitment / loyalty missions.


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#153
Jorji Costava

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I don't really think it makes sense. I liked the dynamic as it was for Cerberus being rather complex and unable to really discern. I do also disagree on the nature of the Collectors being second rate villains. From the start, it was rather clear that they were likely involved with the Reapers. Going back to ME2's pre-release days, one of the big things was finding out how the Collectors and the Reapers were involved, what their connection was. I wouldn't say what I said is anything like the Virmire decision. My thoughts on the matter: Why not play as a Cerberus operative? And have decisions affect how Cerberus is hindered or progressed.


Being involved with the Reapers does not by itself make for a compelling villain (unless you think the Hanar diplomat from ME3 was really scary). The villains have to be able to stand on their own, and the Collectors just couldn't do this. They were just a lesser version of the Reapers (it was pretty obvious from the start that the relationship between them and the Reapers is that the Collectors were Reaper flunkies, and that turned out to be exactly correct), and that doesn't make for compelling stuff.

Sure you can play as a Cerberus operative for a while (say, if the plot of ME2 had been about an undercover infiltration into Cerberus on suspicion of their involvement with the Reapers or some such), but it should have been resolved by ME2. The plot of ME3 was always going to be about uniting the galaxy, and there's no way you're doing that under the banner of a divisive organization like Cerberus. If aliens ever do invade the Earth, it won't be an organization like the Tamil Tigers that unites the governments of the world against them.
 

I also don't think that personal stakes really have a place with Mass Effect.


Why not? That's a rather arbitrary statement. Did you skip all of the loyalty missions? Personal stakes are part and parcel of Mass Effect, as is the case with any ostensibly character-driven story. The point of the Virmire comparison was to respond to your claim that a betrayal story wouldn't work because your Shepard is emotionally invulnerable, since he doesn't care about any of the characters that could be used to drive up the emotional stakes. There are always going to be character arcs that don't work for some people because those people don't care about the characters in question (hence the Virmire comparison), but that's not a reason to avoid such storylines altogether.



#154
Barquiel

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The collectors just got in the way of all the rather good one off recruitment / loyalty missions.


I still don't know what the point of the human reaper was. The reapers couldn't wait a few months longer to start harvesting?

#155
Jukaga

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I still don't know what the point of the human reaper was. The reapers couldn't wait a few months longer to start harvesting?

Yep, with Arrival it begs the question, what was the point of it? I've yet to headcanon-pretzel my way out of that one and I'm pretty good at it. Terminator Reaper aside, ME2 is about character interaction (pity they turfed all the new interesting characters in me3) and providing TiM with the means to do what he does in Me3. Shepard is essentially a dupe, a pawn, a lackey.



#156
themikefest

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I liked Cerberus in ME2 or at least TIM and Miranda. She brought me back to life and TIM provided the funds for that to happen and gave me a new ship to help stop the collectors.



#157
Jukaga

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I liked Cerberus in ME2 or at least TIM and Miranda. She brought me back to life and TIM provided the funds for that to happen and gave me a new ship to help stop the collectors.

I also agree with their overall mission and goals if not always their methods. Calling them terrorists like the game does just shows that whoever does has no idea what a terrorist actually is. They are humanity's STG in a very hostile galaxy.



#158
Hello!I'mTheDoctor

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Being involved with the Reapers does not by itself make for a compelling villain (unless you think the Hanar diplomat from ME3 was really scary). The villains have to be able to stand on their own, and the Collectors just couldn't do this. They were just a lesser version of the Reapers (it was pretty obvious from the start that the relationship between them and the Reapers is that the Collectors were Reaper flunkies, and that turned out to be exactly correct), and that doesn't make for compelling stuff.

Sure you can play as a Cerberus operative for a while (say, if the plot of ME2 had been about an undercover infiltration into Cerberus on suspicion of their involvement with the Reapers or some such), but it should have been resolved by ME2. The plot of ME3 was always going to be about uniting the galaxy, and there's no way you're doing that under the banner of a divisive organization like Cerberus. If aliens ever do invade the Earth, it won't be an organization like the Tamil Tigers that unites the governments of the world against them.
 


Why not? That's a rather arbitrary statement. Did you skip all of the loyalty missions? Personal stakes are part and parcel of Mass Effect, as is the case with any ostensibly character-driven story. The point of the Virmire comparison was to respond to your claim that a betrayal story wouldn't work because your Shepard is emotionally invulnerable, since he doesn't care about any of the characters that could be used to drive up the emotional stakes. There are always going to be character arcs that don't work for some people because those people don't care about the characters in question (hence the Virmire comparison), but that's not a reason to avoid such storylines altogether.

 

Again, I disagree completely; I think were it comes down is where you happen to view the kind of terror or fear (and the reason for such). The Collectors are a more unknown enemy who are much more enigmatic and mute, while still being a considerable challenge that appeal more to a primal sense of fear. They're a dark unknown, a force that you really can't give voice to. I'd argue that those kinds of villains are indeed very compelling. That's something I don't think a lot of people chose to look at the Collectors as. They fill the niche role of some kind of hidden alien with an agenda (be it working as an avatar for the Reapers) that harken back to tales of aliens abducting humans and performing experiments on them.

 

On this note, I still disagree. I think it worked out well enough as it did, with my only regret being that you couldn't be more sympathetic to Cerberus' cause in ME3, even if you did have to work against them. And honestly, what would you have done by making the game focusing on just building alliances? Who are you going to fight? The Reapers? They're still way too powerful to take on on their own. One or two being allocated to a planet serves a purpose, but your game is lacking in action and gameplay by just focusing on uniting everything. And I do disagree on how Cerberus could serve by holding the banner. If they've got the message and are doing something about the problem, then join them. Work with them. And I don't see uniting the galaxy to be nearly as important as building the Crucible, and using it, because it isn't unity in the sense of a battle winning the war as much as it is in making sure the superweapon gets built.

 

Perhaps not, but I don't believe such storylines need to take a central focus. To be frank, Mass Effect really isn't a character driven story. RPG's tend to not really go with that route very well. I'd rather they focus on stronger external plots than internal, character driven ones. Mass Effect was more of the former, and it was the tendency to try and get caught up in both that brought it out of focus.



#159
ImaginaryMatter

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I still don't know what the point of the human reaper was. The reapers couldn't wait a few months longer to start harvesting?

 

Neither did the writers.



#160
Inprea

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Yep, with Arrival it begs the question, what was the point of it? I've yet to headcanon-pretzel my way out of that one and I'm pretty good at it. Terminator Reaper aside, ME2 is about character interaction (pity they turfed all the new interesting characters in me3) and providing TiM with the means to do what he does in Me3. Shepard is essentially a dupe, a pawn, a lackey.

 

You could say that the Reapers were trying really hard to avoid having to fly back to the galaxy under their own power. Perhaps they wanted to create a new Reaper and have it complete Sovereign's job. Though waiting two years just to avoid a six month trip does seem a bit extreme.



#161
Dabrikishaw

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I have to admit I don't get the hate for the Human Reaper. I've heard some groans about it looking like the Terminator, but nothing that approaches a coherent reason.  



#162
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The biggest problem I have with the human reaper is that during this reveal, it gave me the impression that this was the reapers' last resort tactic to have a bigger presence in the galaxy. I figured, OK, they'd have their thrall army construct a Sovereign 2: Homosapien Bugaloo to serve as the new vanguard and get the ball rolling again, maybe this time with more gusto. But just before the credits roll, the reapers are coming. I guess we can't just leave them out there starting at the Milky Way shaking their tentacles and cursing Shepard's name forever, but just what was the point when they were going to steamroll through the galactic horizon anyway? This would have been fine if the long way round to the galaxy actually put a toll on the reapers, like, say, they had to sacrifice a number of themselves to ensure that others, like Harbinger, had enough power to make the trip, thus making them far more vulnerable as a result, but the only thing it ever cost them was time, which only mattered in the end because of the Crucible.


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#163
Hello!I'mTheDoctor

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I have to admit I don't get the hate for the Human Reaper. I've heard some groans about it looking like the Terminator, but nothing that approaches a coherent reason.  

 

I think my biggest issue with it isn't necessarily a problem with it itself so much as how irrelevant it turns out to be (depending on a possible interpretation of its purpose, which is left unstated for the most part).

 

The issue is that it's viewed as redundant, since the Reapers are already on their way back to the galaxy and are expected to arrive within a matter of a few months to a few years. It's never really stated how long the DLC for Arrival, LotSB, etc. takes place after the SM, only that Mass Effect 3 takes place 6 months after Arrival. Indeed, you can do everything in ME2 and structure it so that the SM is the last thing you do in the game (though I don't do that; I hold that LotSB takes place about a month or two after the SM, and Arrival taking place about 2 to 3 months after that (with ME2 taking place over the course of 6 - 9 months). That means that the whole 'building the Human Reaper to open the Citadel Relay to Dark Space' is completely pointless, as the Reapers are a very short distance away anyway.

 

However, my interpretation is that the Collectors and Reapers are merely getting a head-start on harvesting humanity into a new Reaper.


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#164
dreamgazer

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"Absorb the essence of a species" in relation to its creation ain't too high up on the writing scale, either.  Also:

 

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It's "borrowed" from something else.



#165
KaiserShep

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That comparison always makes me laugh, and cringe at how uncanny it is. I want to believe that maybe it was a deliberate nod to Contra, but still, I cringe.


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#166
Excella Gionne

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Dammit guys, destroying the reapers gains us nothing. I know how they think. ;)



#167
KaiserShep

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Dammit guys, destroying the reapers gains us nothing. I know how they think. ;)

 

How about peace??



#168
ImaginaryMatter

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I have to admit I don't get the hate for the Human Reaper. I've heard some groans about it looking like the Terminator, but nothing that approaches a coherent reason.  

 

My main problem with it is that it does diminish the Reapers, not only does it have them being constructed out of organic smoothie (why would an AI species who express disdain for organics do this?) but it also seems terribly inefficient (again, why would an AI species do this?). This might have been fine (but not really) if there was some notion that it led up to something but there wasn't any, at the end of ME2 we just find out that the bug proxies of the Reapers are building one with the essence of humanity (whatever that means) for no particular reason. It is the accumulation and avatar for the lack of story that goes on in ME2.

 

I don't have too much of a problem with it's design although I think it's a tad bit silly. The thing that actually bothers me the most about it is its three eyes.


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#169
Jorji Costava

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Again, I disagree completely; I think were it comes down is where you happen to view the kind of terror or fear (and the reason for such). The Collectors are a more unknown enemy who are much more enigmatic and mute, while still being a considerable challenge that appeal more to a primal sense of fear. They're a dark unknown, a force that you really can't give voice to. I'd argue that those kinds of villains are indeed very compelling. That's something I don't think a lot of people chose to look at the Collectors as. They fill the niche role of some kind of hidden alien with an agenda (be it working as an avatar for the Reapers) that harken back to tales of aliens abducting humans and performing experiments on them.


Two things: First, the Collectors did have a voice, but it was cringe-inducing and meme worthy rather than scary or menacing. Second, we already had a mysterious, enigmatic villain: The Reapers. The Collectors were always going to come up short in that comparison.
 

On this note, I still disagree. I think it worked out well enough as it did, with my only regret being that you couldn't be more sympathetic to Cerberus' cause in ME3, even if you did have to work against them. And honestly, what would you have done by making the game focusing on just building alliances? Who are you going to fight? The Reapers? They're still way too powerful to take on on their own. One or two being allocated to a planet serves a purpose, but your game is lacking in action and gameplay by just focusing on uniting everything. And I do disagree on how Cerberus could serve by holding the banner. If they've got the message and are doing something about the problem, then join them. Work with them. And I don't see uniting the galaxy to be nearly as important as building the Crucible, and using it, because it isn't unity in the sense of a battle winning the war as much as it is in making sure the superweapon gets built.


Who said anything about ME3 being about nothing but building alliances? I simply said it was always going to be one of, if not the essential parts of the story (which is exactly what happened). Thematically, it's much more important than the Crucible: The alliance building missions in Rannoch and Tuchanka resolve major conflicts which embody some of the key ideas of the series (synthetic/organic relations, freedom vs. security, etc.). The Crucible is a plot device, and little more. Further, it's unlikely that Cerberus is the only organization in the whole galaxy who would be trying to do something about the Reaper invasion when it's in full swing, and given the reputation of that organization, most denizens of the galaxy would probably pursue any alternative they could find.
 

Perhaps not, but I don't believe such storylines need to take a central focus. To be frank, Mass Effect really isn't a character driven story. RPG's tend to not really go with that route very well. I'd rather they focus on stronger external plots than internal, character driven ones. Mass Effect was more of the former, and it was the tendency to try and get caught up in both that brought it out of focus.


ME isn't a character driven story? What is it driven by, then? What is the point of the recruitment and loyalty missions of ME2? Bioware's calling card has always been characters rather than plot, and ME really isn't an exception. There's the old Faulkner saying I like to quote a lot, which is something to the effect of, "The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself." I think there's some truth to that: The only stories I can think of off the top of my head where the conflict is 100% external come from Star Trek: The Next Generation, seasons 1 & 2 (Roddenberry had all of these silly rules about how the characters couldn't come into conflict with each other, since in the future, we'd gotten past such petty conflicts or some such nonsense). Honestly, it was dreadful.


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#170
KaiserShep

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If Mass Effect weren't character driven, it would likely wither and die under a critical lens if the primary focus was the main plot itself. Imagine if Mass Effect 2 that didn't actually bother with extensive focus on the companions. The game would probably be CoD length in a completionist playthrough.



#171
Excella Gionne

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How about peace??

They're just trying to control us. Think about it, if they wanted all life destroyed they could do it.


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#172
Fixers0

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Withing context of the trilogy the Collectors themselfs were effectively just the Villains of the week from an old tv series. Their plots being  both introduced and resolved in the very same episode. Those episodes and by extension the villains themselfs are as pointless as they can get and their purpose generally lies in either providing character development or setting up elements for coming episodes, both which are completely irrelvant in the case of the collectors and Mass Effect 2.

 

Ultimately, Mass Effect 2 can be considerd nothing more than an eloborate side story, with the game's primary focus being directed at recruiting cast of interesting, but isolated and otherwise irrelvant cast of sidecharacters. At no point during the plot is any attention given to the  facing the coming threat of the Reapers. By itself stopping the Collectors was allready pretty meaingless because they were by far the least common faction present in the game, nor were they ever realisticly presented as having the capabilty of posing a major threat to galaxy.


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#173
KrrKs

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I just stumbled upon this:

I also agree with their overall mission and goals if not always their methods. Calling them terrorists like the game does just shows that whoever does has no idea what a terrorist actually is. They are humanity's STG in a very hostile galaxy.

Really, Cerberus fits into pretty much every (!) of the (more than 100) different definition of "terrorists" or "terrorist organization" out there:

-They are not a nation and do not represent one.

-They have a political goal

-to reach this goal, they target and kill civilians, assassinate and attack Military personal and installations.

 

Cerberus is more of an terrorist organization than e.g., HAMAS, or IRA ever were, as those two also have the 'freedom-fighter' definition going for them, mostly targeting 'occupiers'.

-These two are just used as examples. RL politics should stay away.


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#174
Hello!I'mTheDoctor

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Two things: First, the Collectors did have a voice, but it was cringe-inducing and meme worthy rather than scary or menacing. Second, we already had a mysterious, enigmatic villain: The Reapers. The Collectors were always going to come up short in that comparison.
 


Who said anything about ME3 being about nothing but building alliances? I simply said it was always going to be one of, if not the essential parts of the story (which is exactly what happened). Thematically, it's much more important than the Crucible: The alliance building missions in Rannoch and Tuchanka resolve major conflicts which embody some of the key ideas of the series (synthetic/organic relations, freedom vs. security, etc.). The Crucible is a plot device, and little more. Further, it's unlikely that Cerberus is the only organization in the whole galaxy who would be trying to do something about the Reaper invasion when it's in full swing, and given the reputation of that organization, most denizens of the galaxy would probably pursue any alternative they could find.
 


ME isn't a character driven story? What is it driven by, then? What is the point of the recruitment and loyalty missions of ME2? Bioware's calling card has always been characters rather than plot, and ME really isn't an exception. There's the old Faulkner saying I like to quote a lot, which is something to the effect of, "The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself." I think there's some truth to that: The only stories I can think of off the top of my head where the conflict is 100% external come from Star Trek: The Next Generation, seasons 1 & 2 (Roddenberry had all of these silly rules about how the characters couldn't come into conflict with each other, since in the future, we'd gotten past such petty conflicts or some such nonsense). Honestly, it was dreadful.

 

1) The first point is a matter of how you choose to perceive the Collectors. Honestly, I'd say that their idea of a mutated lifeform under corruption from Reapers makes them qualify as possible distorted view of ourselves in the future if we would fail against the Reapers. And as I said about them being an avatar of the Reapers, on their own, they're still fairly inscrutable and voiceless, especially when they aren't echoing their master's voice. Think about them in MP. There's no voice, just screeching, indiscernible shrieks and a constant, buzzing noise of what sounds like thousands of hornets flying in all directions at once. And think of what they do when they subjugate a person, how that person might feel, and what they believe or know might happen. The Collectors are a compelling villain if you so choose to view them as such.

 

2) This again may come to how we decide to view this; I focus on the more technical aspect of the universe. The alliance building is a means to accomplish my real goal. I think I've told you that before, I'm more of a materialist who focuses on the external reality instead of the internal perception. I think we're at a categorical divide here on how we view this, and one reason I'd want to take Cerberus as an ally (and possibly forcibly subjugate others to rally behind them) is because of how they achieve their results. They aren't afraid to use Reaper technology to achieve their results, and they aren't afraid to break some rules to get results. They have more experience and knowledge with the Reapers than anybody else. To me, I don't see why anyone wouldn't want to join their cause. And if I were in Shepard's position, I wouldn't care. I wouldn't give them a choice.

 

3) It's driven by the plot and external events. Character interactions are an aspect of the games, but not necessarily integral ones. Everything is externally driven. You have the Reapers and their prospective return. Then you have the Collectors and their attacking of human colonies. Then you have the Reapers returning and building alliances. The purpose of those missions is to build a team to take on the Collectors and stop their attacks on the galaxy, and deny the Reapers a tool to be used as well as the creation of a new Reaper. That's simple enough, isn't it? That was the point. It's all external. Honestly, I'd disagree with the assertion that ME is any different. I believe ME was an experiment to try a separate approach. Are the character interactions still integral? To the experience, possibly, but not to the plot itself. You can't really shape the plot based off of character interactions except for perhaps the Suicide Mission and the loyalty checks that it relies on. Everything else has advances in the plot taking place over time and completion of external objectives. Shoot, that's not even really new. Every BioWare game I've ever played advanced the plot by focusing on external actions taken by the player or another party. What I'm saying is that while talking to other characters (specifically squadmates) is a big thing for games to a lot of people, it doesn't advance the plot or make the story run faster. And, this is my view, the point of a story is to finish.

 

I disagree with Mr. Faulkner. I don't think he's got the answer quite right. I'm not going to say that I do either, but then again, answers are endless in quantity. I'm a guy who prefers external conflict in my plots. And I got a feeling that this is going to be an apples and oranges debate as well. I can think of several more, as well as the vast majority of real conflict in real life. And having a significant experience with that has caused it to shape me to be much more receptive to external conflict in stories. For example, Halo is a story that relies, for the first trilogy, almost exclusively on external conflict.

 

And as a Star Trek fan myself, I can tell you that there was a lot more problems with the first few years on TNG than just the seeming lack of interpersonal problems. But that's something for another discussion.



#175
Hello!I'mTheDoctor

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I just stumbled upon this:

Really, Cerberus fits into pretty much every (!) of the (more than 100) different definition of "terrorists" or "terrorist organization" out there:

-They are not a nation and do not represent one.

-They have a political goal

-to reach this goal, they target and kill civilians, assassinate and attack Military personal and installations.

 

Cerberus is more of an terrorist organization than e.g., HAMAS, or IRA ever were, as those two also have the 'freedom-fighter' definition going for them, mostly targeting 'occupiers'.

-These two are just used as examples. RL politics should stay away.

 

As a person who has engaged terrorists myself and taught military classes on the psychology of terrorism, I can tell you that Cerberus does not at all fit most, if any, of the criteria of a terrorist organization.

 

- They are not a nation and do not represent one. Neither is a corporation, or an NGO, or even an Non-Government Power.

- They have a political goal. As do most of the above organizations. You must first define a political goal. To do that, you must define politics.

- They do not do such actions however in the name of furthering their ideology or movement against another organization or state power. That's a key difference. They aren't actively opposing anyone until ME3 rolls around, to which point is technically not terrorism so much as it is open civil war. All of their other actions are performed in the name of achieving a physical, tangible result for an experiment. They are not being performed in the name of a political agenda.

 

You did not just compare Cerberus to HAMAS or the IRA. That's not even close to compare them. Cerberus are not an organization that is trying to achieve actions against another state. Rather, they're trying to achieve physical, tangible advancements in the fields of science, economics, and military industry.