476 réponses à ce sujet

[Farangbaa]

Rather, they're trying to achieve physical, tangible advancements in the fields of science, economics, and military industry.

 

Science: bull. It's all about creating weapons or weaponized humans (Jack) or creating means against weapons, aliens or humans. Yep, that's science, but it's part of the military science and not just science in general. Project Lazarus and Project Eva are the most benign of their projects, being the only ones that do not directly relate to enhancing one's ability to kill or diminishing the other's ability to do so. That the subject of Project Lazarus is a killing machine who will go on a killing spree that has no precedence in recorded history I'll ignore, I'm feeling kind today. 

Economics: what?

Military industry: that's all they do.

 

 

You did not just compare Cerberus to HAMAS or the IRA. That's not even close to compare them. Cerberus are not an organization that is trying to achieve actions against another state. 

 

Yes he did, and rightfully so.

 

Hamas builds houses, schools, hospitals, feed the Palestinian people etc, etc, the list of their activities not even remotely resembling terrorist activities is near endless. Their military branch is just that: a branch. 

Cerberus does none of that. Cerberus is a full blown war machine with a singular goal: human dominance. 

 

You can like that goal all you want, but don't give me that bs that they're not a terrorist organisation. Or even worse, that they're less awful than an organization like Hamas.

[KrrKs]

The points have to be taken in conjunction, as each single one is irrelevant.

And Cerberus IS a terrorist organization.

 

-Their goal is (can't remember Mirandas exact phrasing, but according to TIM) ensure human dominance and survival.

-The complete destruction of a colony, by turning the colonist into husk, as well as the attack on Akuze and likely Kahokus marines was done in order (to find some data which may be lead to a supersoldier which then could be used) to reach this goal.

 

'Furthering Ideology' is not needed to be branded a terrorist, and if killing every colonist on a planet and assassinating admirals is not an act against their nation, I don't know what is.

 

Some definitions of terrorism include stuff like 'spreading a message', which is untrue for Cerberus. Other definitions state that the performed acts have not to be done to (re)gain territory (-to make terrorists discernible from guerilla and resistance/'freedom'-fighters), this is true for Cerberus.

 

And I was only looking at ME1 Cerberus until now.

 

Edit: deleted nonsense

[von uber]

Cerberus are also fairly fascist (.. and to forestall it, fascism is not the same as nazism) in their outlook as well, just to throw that one in.

[Han Shot First]

I still don't know what the point of the human reaper was. The reapers couldn't wait a few months longer to start harvesting?

 

That was another problem created by having the Reapers simply floor the gas pedal and arrive by convention FTL in ME3. If Bioware had kept them trapped in dark space and needing the relay system to jump into the Milky Way, the Human Reaper then makes some sense. In that scenario it is basically Sovereign 2.0.

 

Having the Reapers arrive at the Milky Way through conventional FTL was one of the more baffling decisions made with the series, particularly considering there were other options. Why not have the Batarian scientists, engineers, and military officials who were indoctrinated by the Leviathan of Dis, be involved in a secret project to construct a Batarian Mass Effect relay? To the unindoctrinated its going to be a display of Batarian technological superiority, not knowing the plans originate with the Reapers. The Batarians roll out their new relay but instead of aligning with the Batarian home system, it reconfigures to some unknown point in dark space, and the Reapers pour through. 

 

Another alternative would have been to recycle the Haestrom dark energy plot line, and have the Heretic Geth collapse a massive star to somehow create a wormhole. Haestrom's sun could have just been a practice run. 

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Science: bull. It's all about creating weapons or weaponized humans (Jack) or creating means against weapons, aliens or humans. Yep, that's science, but it's part of the military science and not just science in general. Project Lazarus and Project Eva are the most benign of their projects, being the only ones that do not directly relate to enhancing one's ability to kill or diminishing the other's ability to do so. That the subject of Project Lazarus is a killing machine who will go on a killing spree that has no precedence in recorded history I'll ignore, I'm feeling kind today. 

Economics: what?

Military industry: that's all they do.

 

 

 

Yes he did, and rightfully so.

 

Hamas builds houses, schools, hospitals, feed the Palestinian people etc, etc, the list of their activities not even remotely resembling terrorist activities is near endless. Their military branch is just that: a branch. 

Cerberus does none of that. Cerberus is a full blown war machine with a singular goal: human dominance. 

 

You can like that goal all you want, but don't give me that bs that they're not a terrorist organisation. Or even worse, that they're less awful than an organization like Hamas.

 

Science: create a means to control the Geth, create a means to create more powerful biotics, study husks and Reaper technology, study Thorian Creepers to use as menial laborers, bring a person back from the dead, study Prothean relics for technology and information about the Reapers. Your assertion is bull this is science, and it is beneficial science, no matter how its applied.

 

Economics: They have to have an economics division. Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to operate corporations and receive proper funds from investments, actions, etc. Economics is fundamental to politics and the military, so for Cerberus not to have one would be absolutely ludicrous.

 

Military Industry: That is a large portion of what they do, seeing as they are technically an offshoot of the alliance military.

 

I would probably figure that we have a differing view of the whole HAMAS issue (and I can prove to you that they are pretty vile, and that their list of terrorist activities is just as long if not longer than their other activities), but that delves into personal politics, and seeing as we have different backgrounds on this stemming from different perspectives based on national background, I'm going to side-step that issue.

 

Cerberus however is more than just their military. Miranda herself states this, and my observations tell me that this is correct. And their goal is not human dominance. That's what you think it is. Cerberus' goal is the preservation and advancement of humans in the galaxy. It was never human dominance. Or is pro-human the same as anti-alien now to you? Plus, we're going to differ on how we view their actions as ell. I already explained how they are categorically not a terrorist organization going by the standard definition of the word, and I'm willing to base personal experience with understanding and combating terrorism (including direct physical confrontation on the battlefield with terrorists) to judge that Cerberus are indeed not terrorists.

 

Cerberus are also fairly fascist (.. and to forestall it, fascism is not the same as nazism) in their outlook as well, just to throw that one in.

 

No, not really. They're pro-human. As I said, pro-human isn't even close to anti-alien or racism. The only racist character in Cerberus I can think of is Kai Leng, and even in the game, its grossly underplayed. Hell, Brooks left the organization explicitly because they weren't a racist organization. Tim also explicitly told Saren to prepare the Turians for the coming storm of the Reapers (though neither knew it at the time). He's not out to put aliens down, he's out to put humans up. There's a massive difference there.

[General TSAR]

NOPE.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

That was another problem created by having the Reapers simply floor the gas pedal and arrive by convention FTL in ME3. If Bioware had kept them trapped in dark space and needing the relay system to jump into the Milky Way, the Human Reaper then makes some sense. In that scenario it is basically Sovereign 2.0.

 

Having the Reapers arrive at the Milky Way through conventional FTL was one of the more baffling decisions made with the series, particularly considering there were other options. Why not have the Batarian scientists, engineers, and military officials who were indoctrinated by the Leviathan of Dis, be involved in a secret project to construct a Batarian Mass Effect relay? To the unindoctrinated its going to be a display of Batarian technological superiority, not knowing the plans originate with the Reapers. The Batarians roll out their new relay but instead of aligning with the Batarian home system, it reconfigures to some unknown point in dark space, and the Reapers pour through. 

 

Another alternative would have been to recycle the Haestrom dark energy plot line, and have the Heretic Geth collapse a massive star to somehow create a wormhole. Haestrom's sun could have just been a practice run. 

 

The best explanation I can give is that the Human Reaper was simply the Collectors and Reapers getting a head start on its construction.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Oh boy people are calling Cerberus terrorists in the presence of certain BSN members?

 

I'm gonna go get my popcorn.

[themikefest]

That was another problem created by having the Reapers simply floor the gas pedal and arrive by convention FTL in ME3. If Bioware had kept them trapped in dark space and needing the relay system to jump into the Milky Way, the Human Reaper then makes some sense. In that scenario it is basically Sovereign 2.0.

 

Having the Reapers arrive at the Milky Way through conventional FTL was one of the more baffling decisions made with the series, particularly considering there were other options. Why not have the Batarian scientists, engineers, and military officials who were indoctrinated by the Leviathan of Dis, be involved in a secret project to construct a Batarian Mass Effect relay? To the unindoctrinated its going to be a display of Batarian technological superiority, not knowing the plans originate with the Reapers. The Batarians roll out their new relay but instead of aligning with the Batarian home system, it reconfigures to some unknown point in dark space, and the Reapers pour through. 

 

Another alternative would have been to recycle the Haestrom dark energy plot line, and have the Heretic Geth collapse a massive star to somehow create a wormhole. Haestrom's sun could have just been a practice run. 

Thats why ME3 is where the trilogy starts. Doing an ME3 default playthrough has no mentioning of a lot of things that happened in the previous games.

[Farangbaa]

Oh boy people are calling Cerberus terrorists in the presence of certain BSN members?
 
I'm gonna go get my popcorn.

Had they been Muslims furthering the Islamic cause, we would not be having this discussion.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Had they been Muslims furthering the Islamic cause, we would not be having this discussion.

 

Depends on how they would choose to further the cause of Islam. If it was peaceably and not calling for a jihad against all infidels, then it would be acceptable.

 

The vast, vast, vast majority of Muslims are not violent and very peaceful. So there is no need to have such a discussion on that.

[geth47]

"only that Mass Effect 3 takes place 6 months after Arrival."

 

Not after arrival. After Shepard surrendering to the Alliance, something that can take place soon after arrival, weeks later, or even several months later. You can complete Arrival around the same time that Illium becomes available. You can still complete all the other DLCs, recruitments, scans, loyalty missions, side-quests and the suicide mission prior to surrendering the normandy to alliance officials in order to stand trial. 

 

We do know, however, that during ME3 they stated that shepard initially warned about the reapers around 3 years before. From eden prime in ME1 until priority earth 2 in ME3 I´d say about 50 months passed at most. 

[Farangbaa]

Depends on how they would choose to further the cause of Islam. If it was peaceably and not calling for a jihad against all infidels, then it would be acceptable.
 
The vast, vast, vast majority of Muslims are not violent and very peaceful. So there is no need to have such a discussion on that.

And how are the methods of Cerberus in any way justifiable?

Cerberus supports the principle that any methods of advancing humanity's ascension are entirely justified, including illegal or dangerous experimentation, terrorist activities, sabotage and assassination.

As Cerberus grew, it had an indelible effect on the course of human development through acts of sabotage, assassination, media manipulation, and espionage. Cerberus became known to the public after a failed attempt to steal antimatter from the cruiser SSV Geneva in 2165. The sole surviving member of the operation named his sponsor "Cerberus", and the publicity from the incident spurred an increase in recruitment. In 2170, Cerberus engineered the Eldfell-Ashland Energy accident over Yandoa, exposing the colonists to dust-form element zero, and two other similar accidents over the preceding four months in two other colonies. The following year, Pope Clement XVI is assassinated via rosary beads coated with toxic materials in order to be replaced by Leo XIV, who has eschatological beliefs in with Cerberus's goal of militarizing humanity. Claude Menneau, a candidate for the leadership of the pro-human Terra Firma party, was also assassinated in 2173 at the order of the Illusive Man to allow Charles Saracino to gain the position. Cerberus was additionally responsible for funding Michael Moser Lang, who would go on to gun down United North American States president Enrique Aguilar and Chinese People's Federation premier Ying Xiong in 2176, and sabotaging the starship MSV Anixara in 2182, resulting in the death of Turian Hierachy war hawk Raherix Ursivus.

Do I honestly have to go on?

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

And how are the methods of Cerberus in any way justifiable?



Do I honestly have to go on?

 

Results. They got them. They're justified.

 

No. Because Cerberus accomplished what they set out to do, and I agree with their ideology and cause. Thus they're perfectly justified.

[Jukaga]

It was a huge mistake to have Arrival be available before the SM is completed. It completely invalidates everything else you can do after that point that isn't in direct opposition to the Reapers. If you do an early Arrival, how can you possibly justify using your time and resources hunting down a Blue Suns base or worrying about Jacob's daddy when you KNOW BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT that literally thousands of Reapers are in the Galaxy and on the move to their targets? No matter how you cut it, Arrival was a mistake but doing it before the SM and the bulk of the side missions are completed is ludicrous.

[Farangbaa]

Results. They got them. They're justified.
 
No. Because Cerberus accomplished what they set out to do, and I agree with their ideology and cause. Thus they're perfectly justified.

You must love Mengele, if this is your reasoning.

And how does that make the Muslim fundamentalist terorrists, and not people that try really hard to reach their goal?

[geth47]

Oh, and should you decide to do the arrival dlc prior to illium, this means that the reapers would still be able to arrive when the human proto-reaper was still in an even earlier stage of development than we were able to see near the end of the game. 

[Farangbaa]

It was a huge mistake to have Arrival be available before the SM is completed. It completely invalidates everything else you can do after that point that isn't in direct opposition to the Reapers. If you do an early Arrival, how can you possibly justify using your time and resources hunting down a Blue Suns base or worrying about Jacob's daddy when you KNOW BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT that literally thousands of Reapers are in the Galaxy and on the move to their targets? No matter how you cut it, Arrival was a mistake but doing it before the SM and the bulk of the side missions are completed is ludicrous.

Because exploring the galaxy also makes perfect sense while you're in a 'race against time'.

Or how scanning for minerals because that organization that just spend billions to give you life and a new ship is totally reasonable. Instead of them just giving you weapons, money, minerals and the whole shebang

It's a game, **** like this happens or else we'll just be playing games on rails. (it remains a stupid decision, I know)

[von uber]

Oh I don't know, one man's cheeky loveable irish rogue with a twinkle in his eye raising funds for the green isle is another man's placing a bomb in a bin to kill as many innocent people as possible terrorist.
So your mileage may vary when it comes to saying who is or isn't a terrorist.

Regarding cerberus being fascist, they have the uniform, the ideology (replace superiority of country with that of race) and the strong leader cult. Ticks all the boxes.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

You must love Mengele, if this is your reasoning.

 

He got results, I'll give him that. We still use several of his patents and inventions, including a model for hyperbaric chambers used by the Air Force and NASA, and he did make great strides in the area of genetic research. If I found him, I'd offer him amnesty in return for his services, though I'd make sure I'd keep him under a tighter leash.

 

Mengele's flaw was that he based many of his philosophies on racism and performing science in the name of torture rather than the other way around.

[geth47]

 Jukaga, this is because the idea of a post-ending only DLC sounds ludicrous.

 

Come to think of it, all of DLCs from the trilogy won´t give you immediate access to the contents. You still need to play for a while before being able to customize your weapons, your armor, recruit javik, use the hammerhead, go to pinnacle station or the asteroid, recruit liara, rescue hacket´s friend... 

 

Bioware could have planned better, making the asteroid collision unavoidable and the place as only the reapers arriving place. It just made the whole timeline messy, because the reapers still arrive around the same time, it does not matter if you still make over 30 missions in me2 of if arrival is the very last thing you did, post-ending, and you surrendered soon after the dlc concludes.  

[Farangbaa]

Mengele's flaw was that he based many of his philosophies on racism and performing science in the name of torture rather than the other way around.

Yeah, and that's why you say Cerberus aren't terrorist, Muslim fundamentalists are.
Because Cerberus tries for something you agree with, the Muslim fundamentalists for something you don't agree with it.

Ultimately, they do the same: fight for what they believe in, kill those that don't believe in it

edit: removed ambiguity

[Jukaga]

Because exploring the galaxy also makes perfect sense while you're in a 'race against time'.

Or how scanning for minerals because that organization that just spend billions to give you life and a new ship is totally reasonable. Instead of them just giving you weapons, money, minerals and the whole shebang

 

1. A bit more, as you are pretty clueless in ME1 and it beats sitting with your thumb up your butt asking 'Where's Saren?'

 

2. Can't argue there. Many video games suffer from this; play Xcom and wonder why the governments are nickle and dimeing you on every little thing when you're trying to save the world from an alien invasion. This is more a game mechanics thing I can handwave. I can't handwave away Shepard's apathy to the Reapers in the galaxy if you do an early Arrival.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Oh I don't know, one man's cheeky loveable irish rogue with a twinkle in his eye raising funds for the green isle is another man's placing a bomb in a bin to kill as many innocent people as possible terrorist.
So your mileage may vary when it comes to saying who is or isn't a terrorist.

Regarding cerberus being fascist, they have the uniform, the ideology (replace superiority of country with that of race) and the strong leader cult. Ticks all the boxes.

 

That is indeed a factor.

 

However, Cerberus is not fascist. They have a uniform, yes. There is no ideology based on inherent superiority of humanity however. TIM acknowledges that humanity is in fact in a very fragile position in the galaxy. And TIM hardly has a cult of personality. No one worships him in Cerberus. They respect and admire him, but they don't have a golden statute of him with them all prostrated in front of it.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Yeah, and that's why you say Cerberus aren't terrorist, Muslim fundamentalists are.
Because Cerberus tries for something you agree with, the Muslim fundamentalists for something you don't agree with it.

Ultimately, they do the same: fight for what they believe in, kill those that don't.

 

Cerberus doesn't kill everyone who doesn't agree with them, as evidenced by all of their actions up to ME3. Islamic Terrorists do.